Mowbray: Stay or go?

[RoversClitheroe]

2 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

All about opinions...

He was playing in that same ‘awful’ team up until Dec when he had 15 goals and 10 assists or whatever.

My feeling is that part of Rovers problem is that our Talismsn has capitulated as oppose to the other way round. The last four home games have been lost 1-0. Those games were screaming out for him to do something. The team is built around accommodating him and he’s been soooo poor! A bit of magic in any of those games could’ve changed everything, created some momentum and confidence. Took the pressure off the team. 

Lets not be too quick to blame the team for Dacks form. It’s common knowledge that team hasn’t changed much from the one he thrived in for 18 months.

Which begs the question, what HAS changed? 

You're completely avoiding my point. You only hear what you want to hear. No one is blaming Dack. 

Everyone rightly so blames Mowbray and his team selection and tactics. Which he had got wrong time and time again. Not playing to our best players style.

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, Waggy76 said:

I do not expect Rovers to seriously challenge for promotion or play offs to Premiership again , in my life time , unless there is a change of ownership .

Which , I am not holding my breath on..

You say that, and I get it, but you only have to look at some of the teams that are getting promoted.

League One is all about the best team; the Championship is all about the best manager.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, arbitro said:

But could the likes of Smallwood and Williams earn what we are paying them given they are essentially League One at best. That's why I'm saying they could sit on their contracts and take the money. Even sending them out on loan would cost us. I'm not bracketing them with the big earners of yesteryear but the process of getting rid might be the same given the security they have.

And don't forget we will have Hart, Grayson, Wharton and Fisher back and I have a recollection of the first three being given new deals this season too.

I personally think Williams could play for another Championship club. I’d play him every week over Bell as it is. Richie may struggle and end up in league 1. But those players only have another year after this season anyway. If we’re going for it and decide to sell Williams to a Millwall for £250k and loan Smallwood to a top half league 1 team for 50% of his wages then it’s not a big deal imo. 

[Vinjay]

3 hours ago, JHRover said:

We've got about 300 pages on here discussing our major weaknesses and need to strengthen massively in the summer, yet I suspect our first priorities will be to cash in on arguably our best and most valuable player and sending Reed back to Southampton.

Then no doubt there'll be folk stratching their heads when we're bottom of the league next season. 

Clubs that want to progress and improve keep their best players and work out ways to replace those not good enough. Dack is good enough so his position should be bottom of the list of issues that need addressing.

We have to rebuild our defence, central midfield and find more goals, not offload our most creative player.

As we can see though, the club PR machine is busy at work convincing people that Dack is a major problem and we'd be better off getting shut. Convenient really. Not Venkys or Rovers fault. Never is.

So why defend him in court when that may have been the opportune time to launch a smear campaign? I know that this club and logic don't combine well but why now? Infact what Dack did could have been considered breach of contract. Of course unless he was jailed (not applicable in his case but bans for drugs, etc other examples) the club aren't going to lose out on a transfer fee. Virtually no club would unless they really wanted to make an example of someone. 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, RoversClitheroe said:

You're completely avoiding my point. You only hear what you want to hear. No one is blaming Dack. 

Everyone rightly so blames Mowbray and his team selection and tactics. Which he had got wrong time and time again. Not playing to our best players style.

No, I understood your point but decided to flip it because you can’t have it both ways. You can’t lambast the manager for not changing things and then blame the form of our talisman on that team. A team he had previously thrived in. A team which is and always has been built to accommodate him. 

Why cant you see that there’s the slightest possibility that the team started to suffer because the star man decided to concentrate more on his new flame than his performances? The team hadn’t changed...I watch them home and away. The team don’t make him misplace 5yrd passes or miss guilt edged chances or look like he has two size 5 mitre deltas in the back of his shorts....

[arbitro]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

I personally think Williams could play for another Championship club. I’d play him every week over Bell as it is. Richie may struggle and end up in league 1. But those players only have another year after this season anyway. If we’re going for it and decide to sell Williams to a Millwall for £250k and loan Smallwood to a top half league 1 team for 50% of his wages then it’s not a big deal imo. 

But avoidable if Mowbray hadn't decided to reward average Joe's for doing their jobs and winning football matches (for which they would have been handsomely rewarded with win and promotion bonuses).

I've enjoyed debating these aspects in a civilised manner with you. The next few weeks and summer may well define the next few years for our club.

Either way I'm sure it will be revisited by us.

[SBlue]

3 hours ago, JHRover said:

So begins a process of phasing Dack out and unsettling him to prepare for the sale - hence we've got the shenanigans seen yesterday. It won't be long before people on here and Twitter are encouraging the club to sell Dack as we don't need that sort of behaviour here and we can't tolerate it etc. 

But rather than it being a Dack issue perhaps it is a Rovers issue - that they're trying to sell him and force him out as it is the only way cash will be raised.

 

3 hours ago, LDRover said:

A very credible argument and one I agree with.

 

3 hours ago, JHRover said:

The fact we're discussing selling Dack and him being a problem after what has happened recently is convenient.

 

You two got stocks in a tin foil company or something?

Hilarious.

So in order to sell our best player and create a willing buyer the owners (?? Or someone??) have decided to make him out to be a high maintenance disruptive influence. 

Using the medium of Twitter rumours.

 

Come on.

Apply a bit of critical thinking.

Is it the fracking up there affecting the water?

 

If it helps, perhaps remind yourselves that they genuinely do not give a shit what the fans think - and work backwards from there.

Edited April 7, 2019 by S8 & Blue

[rigger]

After yesterdays selection debacle I have changed my mind and think he should go.

[SBlue]

I almost expected him to put some really hard yards in during the close season in preparation for the step up.

He didn’t, and pot/kettle notwithstanding, we can all see he’s always been pretty out of shape.

If he had CR7 fitness though, he certainly wouldn’t be playing for us.

And in a way, his lifestyle/attitude makes him a bit of a cult hero for me.

These things contribute massively to the fact that I don’t expect we will ever realise any serious coin for him, and we won’t sell until we have to.

Thank god.

Most teams in this league would end up relying on him.

Putting up with all the bullshit will serve us well I think.

 

But a sale under 10-15m will be a proper canary in the coal mine.

 

Plus Attwood is fit as fuck. Don’t deny it.

I’d be gutted too!

[tomphil]

That's the thing about cult hero's these days when they are doing the biz they are the man and whatever else they are up to doesn't matter in fact it just cements their status. I can shag about, go out, not train hard and i'm still better than anyone else.

When they aren't doing it then it's a massive stick to beat them with because the fact they are all over media and social media doing it comes back on them as the reason they aren't performing.

Back in the day they just had to stay out of the pub or the bookies for a couple of weeks until the heat was off and they scored again. Not possible now with all the media self promotion and every fan wanting a selfie.

[RevidgeBlue]

2 hours ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

I agree but changing the manager(and coaching staff) again is as big of a gamble, especially when you look at the list of possible replacements(just the usual has beens, never gonna bees and journeymen managers)

 

With all due respect, surely Mowbray falls into that category anyway. We're not talking about the possibility of replacing Kenny Dalglish are we?

[JHRover]

16 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

 

 

 

You two got stocks in a tin foil company or something?

Hilarious.

So in order to sell our best player and create a willing buyer the owners (?? Or someone??) have decided to make him out to be a high maintenance disruptive influence. 

Using the medium of Twitter rumours.

 

Come on.

Apply a bit of critical thinking.

Is it the fracking up there affecting the water?

 

If it helps, perhaps remind yourselves that they genuinely do not give a shit what the fans think - and work backwards from there.

Not quite. I accept they don't care what the fans think but they do go to significant lengths to build up an image of themselves. Time after time the manager or board members will credit the owners for their generosity, their support, tell us that they're desperate for the club to succeed.

If supporters are led to believe that the problem isn't Venkys or Rovers but the source of all our ills is a player who has become a liability or a disruption and that player is subsequently sold then it is an easier sell, and avoids blame being laid at their door. If the player is as good as gold and worshipped by the supporters one or two would be peeved when he gets sold to a rival.

We've seen it 4-5 times with Rovers players who attract interest from elsewhere. Marshall was the most obvious one - they managed to make him out to be a problem player, invented contract 'talks' that never came to anything so when he was sold to Wolves it was on the basis he was being hard work and our only choice was to let him go, when actually before that we'd been actively selling anyone who could raise a few quid. Even Rhodes ended up going to the press to express his unhappiness at their conduct and they managed to turn that around as Rhodes not wanting to be here and as a result we had to sell.

Not saying that's what is happening here but I wouldn't rule it out either. 

If money is going to be tight and selling Dack is the key to raising funds or impressing the owners and persuading them to invest again then I'd expect to see more examples of his 'disruptive' behaviour going on between now and the summer, and also talk of him 'rejecting' a 'contract offer' which ultimately will convince people there's only one solution - a sale.

[JHRover]

40 minutes ago, Vinjay17 said:

So why defend him in court when that may have been the opportune time to launch a smear campaign? I know that this club and logic don't combine well but why now? Infact what Dack did could have been considered breach of contract. Of course unless he was jailed (not applicable in his case but bans for drugs, etc other examples) the club aren't going to lose out on a transfer fee. Virtually no club would unless they really wanted to make an example of someone. 

I suspect because for the sake of this season we had to defend him and ensure he didn't go to jail. Also if he had been given a custodial sentence then his value would have plummeted. 

As the summer window comes into view eyes will be on a big sale if necessary and work building towards that begins.

[SBlue]

Just now, JHRover said:

.If money is going to be tight and selling Dack is the key to raising funds or impressing the owners and persuading them to invest again then I'd expect to see more examples of his 'disruptive' behaviour going on between now and the summer, and also talk of him 'rejecting' a 'contract offer' which ultimately will convince people there's only one solution - a sale.

I think you’re missing my main point.

If you want to sell a player -

You don’t start rumours of him being a disruptive influence.

 

On Twitter.

Somehow.

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by S8 & Blue

[tomphil]

Yep if TM makes it to the end of the season and we stay up comfortably then he's delivered promotion, a season in the Champ leading to another and the icing on the cake will be the sale of Dack.  However or why ever that may come about he's turned a million pound player into a ten million one and that's how you impress this lot so who'd rule out yet another contract extension for him especially if he agrees to operate with nothing but the first instalment on Dack as his summer transfer pot !

They'll only get shut if/when they want to and usually at advice or back stabbing form elsewhere.

I wonder how the now official middleman views all this ?

[K-Hod]

24 minutes ago, rigger said:

After yesterdays selection debacle I have changed my mind and think he should go.

I agree. Starting Evans and Smallwood and leaving Reed and Travis on the bench is basically gross misconduct....

[Boroblue]

Putting the Venky issue to one side but not marginalising it. ( to prevent this being an ownership discussion).

We are not developing has a team. Mowbray talks about change but his actions defend the status quo. The current run of defeats by any standard is poor but his team selection remains the same. He seems to trust players and formations that are failing. He suggests the reason this can’t be changed is the alternatives are not up to the job ( chapman, rothwell , travis to a degree and all the under 23 squad). This is understandable if those he believes are  competent to deliver his objectives are achieving them.

I am at a complete and utter loss at the current mindset. He is in as he acknowledges a results business but does not appear willing to or capable of the making the decisions needed.

In the end if something’s not working change it. It is unlikely that repeating it will be successful.

This applies to team selection the manager( Southampton as an example) and the owners.

[Bigdoggsteel]

27 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Yep if TM makes it to the end of the season and we stay up comfortably then he's delivered promotion, a season in the Champ leading to another and the icing on the cake will be the sale of Dack.  However or why ever that may come about he's turned a million pound player into a ten million one and that's how you impress this lot so who'd rule out yet another contract extension for him especially if he agrees to operate with nothing but the first instalment on Dack as his summer transfer pot !

They'll only get shut if/when they want to and usually at advice or back stabbing form elsewhere.

I wonder how the now official middleman views all this ?

I think Dack was worth more at the start of the season, than now. If you look at his goals and assists you would say he had a decent season. I don't think he had a good season at all personally. Nowhere near what he is capable of. You can't take the goals away, but they flatter him.

People please don't come at me with the Rhodes comparison, because I would expect more all round play from Dack and also Rhodes never really had a dry patch. Dack also pretty much plays as a striker 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[Exiled in Toronto]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think Dack was worth more at the start of the season, than now. If you look at his goals and assists you would say he had a decent season. I don't think he had a good season at all personally. Nowhere near what he is capable of. You can't take the goals away, but they flatter him. Don't come at me with the Rhodes comparison, because I would expect more all round play from Dack and also Rhodes never really had a dry patch. Dack also pretty much plays as a striker 

When I saw him put two Everton defenders on their arses, I thought he would take the division by storm this year. He hasn’t, and since Xmas a neutral wouldn’t be able to pick him out as our supposed talisman. Last few games he’s looked just like a player signed from Gillingham.

[roversfan99]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

You can't take the goals away, but they flatter him.

Goals cant flatter a player, They are black and white and you cant discredit their importance, indeed the numbers of him and Graham become more impressive compared to the pathetic numbers of everyone else.

[DE.]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think Dack was worth more at the start of the season, than now. If you look at his goals and assists you would say he had a decent season. I don't think he had a good season at all personally. Nowhere near what he is capable of. You can't take the goals away, but they flatter him.

People please don't come at me with the Rhodes comparison, because I would expect more all round play from Dack and also Rhodes never really had a dry patch. Dack also pretty much plays as a striker 

Like most of our team, he was doing really well up until November. Then it all seemed to go to shit - for everybody, Dack included. By the 10th November he'd scored 8 goals. Since then just 4. 

Something hasn't been right for a while with him, but nonetheless I can't advocate selling him. Not when we have so little goal threat or creativity across the rest of the team. We can surely only consider selling him if we have more productive players in the team first. 

[RevidgeBlue]

Imo Mowbray has completely neutralised Dack by bypassing him with our long ball style of play to the extent where he has had to resort to coming back to take the ball off the toes of the centre half to get on it. As a result I think he has lost some of his spark and mojo.

However, whether or not Dack's dip in form is down to the manager or down to the player being a bit of a tit is largely irrelevant. That isn't the major issue. The bigger issue is that we are almost solely reliant on Dack and if he isn't on song we are completely bolluxed.

In that respect we haven't moved forward as a Club one iota since we were in League 1. We have a poorish team. Then we have Dack.

That is the problem. Not Dack.

[rovers11]

22 hours ago, Blue blood said:

An incredible job? How? Genuinely curious as to what is incredible about it. 

Staving off relegation in his first season (although admittedly that wasn't an easy ask)? 

Getting us promoted with one of the biggest budgets and a lower championship level squad - it's a decent achievement, maybe even good, but it's hardly incredible. 

This season - not sure what is incredible or even that he has got the best out of it. 

Firstly a run of 11 games with only 1 win is nearly a quarter of the season, so not sure where the majority of the season comes in. Secondly, which players have looked at their best - arguably Dack and Graham , but who else?

It seems a bit contradictory to say they're a poor squad and TM is getting the best from them. Getting the best out of average players to me seems to suggest Sheffield United, or even a Preston or Bristol City type scenario, not where we are at.

Equally I'm not buying that TM has been surprised by how poor they are - he got to see the vast majority of them in the championship pre-relegation in action, as well as work with them for a year in league 1 to assess their level. I'll agree some elements of the squad are hogwash but if within his first 2 years of working with them (pre-this season) TM hadn't spotted the likes of Evans and Williams were duffers then we really shouldn't be employing him. Spunking the best part of £7 million plus and having no visible signs of improvement in the squad is also a pretty damning indictment of TM too. 

Also I'd respectfully argue that Lenihen, Raya, Nayambe, Rothwell, Dack, Graham, Reid are all more than adequate at this level, and if utilized properly there's a number of talents who could effectively do a role in a championship team/squad (Bennett and Bell for two). But the system, other personnel selected and glaring holes in the squad negates a lot of the decent talent available. 

All in all I struggle to see the incredible job TM is doing. We agree he has some absolute dross in the team - but that is his fault, he's had 2 years to prepare this season's team to an adequate level. But also he has got some good and solid players who can do a job. The problem is TM isn't savvy enough to utilize the good stuff at his disposal or get rid of the dross. 

I can see where you are coming from but the fact we have been well clear of relegation all season and even flirted with play off places until the end of Jan represents a lot of progress in the two years he has been in charge. The Coyle team was so far off the pace, it was scary. I’m therefore very impressed with where we are now. I fully expected a relegation struggle this season as I see a lot of “tryers” in our team but not a huge amount of quality. 

Yes, we spent £10m in the summer and that hasn’t reaped dividends yet but there’s a lot of promise in the players that were signed: Rothwell looks like he has something, Brereton will come good, Chapman is an exciting signing, and Armstrong has shown flashes. No idea about Davenport but he came highly rated. Add that to some of the young players that TM has developed - e.g Nyambe, Raya - and the younger ones he’s bringing through, such as Travis and Buckley, there are clear signs of a plan for the future. £10m is a lot of money by our standards but not a lot by Championship standards. Look at Norwich - they have Hanley and Rhodes who can’t get a kick for them. It shows the gulf in quality at the top and bottom at the moment.

He deserves criticism for the past couple of months as it hasn’t been good enough. His performance in the jan transfer market was generally poor, as I mentioned before. The Jan activity has meant that we’ve had no defensive cover for the injuries we’ve picked up and no fresh new energy. Dack has gone off the boil recently and he’s the magic that wins us games more often than not. Without him we have no quality going forward. That has to be addressed in the summer. 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by rovers11

[roversfan99]

Just now, rovers11 said:

I can see where you are coming from but the fact we have been well clear of relegation all season and even flirted with play off places until the end of Jan represents a lot of progress in the two years he has been in charge. The Coyle team was so far off the pace, it was scary. I’m therefore very impressed with where we are now. I fully expected a relegation struggle this season as I see a lot of “tryers” in our team but not a huge amount of quality. 

Yes, we spent £10m in the summer and that hasn’t reaped dividends yet but there’s a lot of promise in the players that were signed: Rothwell looks like he has something, Brereton will come good, Chapman is an exciting signing, and Armstrong has shown flashes. No idea about Davenport but he came highly rated. Add that to some of the young players that TM has developed - e.g Nyambe, Raya - and the younger ones he’s bringing through, such as Travis and Buckley, there are clear signs of a plan for the future. £10m is a lot of money by our standards but not a lot by Championship standards. Look at Norwich - they have Hanley and Rhodes who can’t get a kick for them. It shows the gulf in quality at the top and bottom at the moment.

He deserves criticism for the past couple of months as it hasn’t been good enough. His performance in the jan transfer market was generally poor, as I mentioned before. The Jan activity has meant that we’ve had no defensive cover for the injuries we’ve picked up and no fresh new energy. Dack has gone off the boil recently and he’s the magic that wins us games more often than not. Without him we have no quality going forward. That has to be addressed in the summer. 

 

We need 4 points from the last 6 to match the side Coyle had in terms of points accumulated.

[Bigdoggsteel]

38 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Goals cant flatter a player, They are black and white and you cant discredit their importance, indeed the numbers of him and Graham become more impressive compared to the pathetic numbers of everyone else.

Doesn't change the fact that outside of that he hasn't hit the heights we would have all expected.