Mowbray: Stay or go?

[rigger]

Just now, tomphil said:

The key surely is to pair one good defensive mid and one more all rounder type.  Two defensive mids wouldn't be so bad if we played with one or two decent pacey wingers who got up and down for them to feed the ball to when they broke up these counters.

The style is just so bland normally and goes nowhere.

No the key is to win games.

[Pedro]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

He’s right btw. Reed and Travis at times vacate the CM and create holes for teams to annaihilate us in transition and on the counter. Derby didn’t do this because their style of play is not incisive, it’s possession based and (currently) very lethargic. The conundrum for TM is that Reed and Travis are far superior footballers than Evans and Smallwood. I personally would like to see Reed and Travis continue against the remaining teams purely to see how it affects this thread! Because teams like Norwich, Swansea and even Forest will murder us if our midfield vacates chasing into areas that weaken us. Ideally, they both play every week and learn to play that position better. 

He's wrong in the fact that we failed to win any of the ten games Reed and Travis weren't paired though...and the two we won in the last dozen, they were - and we kept clean sheets ?

 

I'm praying for a eureka moment from him.

 

 

[Crimpshrine]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

He’s a good manager mate. That’s not difficult to see. He’s achieving his goals, has a hard working team and has united the fan base with the club. 

 

Evidence ?

Long way to go with that one I think!

[Parsonblue]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

He’s a good manager mate. That’s not difficult to see. He’s achieving his goals, has a hard working team and has united the fan base with the club. 

Has he made mistakes? Yes. Will he continue to make mistakes? Yes. Will he ever become a Rovers legend? Who knows? 

The point is, that we have a good manager and a team of players who work hard and care. The summer is crucial in us moving forwards and imo will be Tony’s defining moment at Rovers. If he has a great summer then who knows. A bad summer and he may be gone before Christmas.

Couldn't agree more with this.  Every manager I've seen since Jack Marshall has made mistakes, I've yet to find a manager who doesn't because like all of us they are human and not every decision will be the right one.  All managers have their own opinions on players and how a team plays and quite often that differs from supporters.

As you say, the summer will be vital for Mowbray but if he can add some experience in the right positions to what we already have - and with a glut of youngsters ready to be promoted to the senior squad - there is no reason why the future can't be extremely bright under Mowbray.  He will also know that if he can't get the right players in or money is not available then it will be difficult going forward.  This is going to be a very important summer but Mowbray has provided a platform on which to build and hopefully the owners will support him in taking it forward.

[BankEnd Rover]

Just now, Parsonblue said:

Couldn't agree more with this.  Every manager I've seen since Jack Marshall has made mistakes, I've yet to find a manager who doesn't because like all of us they are human and not every decision will be the right one.  All managers have their own opinions on players and how a team plays and quite often that differs from supporters.

As you say, the summer will be vital for Mowbray but if he can add some experience in the right positions to what we already have - and with a glut of youngsters ready to be promoted to the senior squad - there is no reason why the future can't be extremely bright under Mowbray.  He will also know that if he can't get the right players in or money is not available then it will be difficult going forward.  This is going to be a very important summer but Mowbray has provided a platform on which to build and hopefully the owners will support him in taking it forward.

I have some sort of belief. The only thing that annoys everyone is Tony's loyalties to certain players. It's simply not good enough. This is professional football, and the main aim is to improve and win games. I see no sign on this with recent comment from TM. 

[jim mk2]

Just now, Parsonblue said:

 

How do you explain his inability to sort out the team's defence?

[Bigdoggsteel]

13 minutes ago, Crimpshrine said:

Evidence ?

Long way to go with that one I think!

He has. You could even notice it on the message board since he took over. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

25 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

He’s a good manager mate. That’s not difficult to see. He’s achieving his goals, has a hard working team and has united the fan base with the club. 

Has he made mistakes? Yes. Will he continue to make mistakes? Yes. Will he ever become a Rovers legend? Who knows? 

The point is, that we have a good manager and a team of players who work hard and care. The summer is crucial in us moving forwards and imo will be Tony’s defining moment at Rovers. If he has a great summer then who knows. A bad summer and he may be gone before Christmas.

It's his inability up to now to sign players that genuinely impact the team that worries me as much as his defensive mentality. He seems to need to sign six players to get one that he's prepared to risk in the first team. Somebody reminded me the other day that it took him months at the start of last season to give Dack a starting place !

[AllRoverAsia]

52 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

He’s right btw. Reed and Travis at times vacate the CM and create holes for teams to annaihilate us in transition and on the counter. Derby didn’t do this because their style of play is not incisive, it’s possession based and (currently) very lethargic. The conundrum for TM is that Reed and Travis are far superior footballers than Evans and Smallwood. I personally would like to see Reed and Travis continue against the remaining teams purely to see how it affects this thread! Because teams like Norwich, Swansea and even Forest will murder us if our midfield vacates chasing into areas that weaken us. Ideally, they both play every week and learn to play that position better. 

"Reed and Travis at times vacate the CM and create holes for teams to annaihilate us in transition and on the counter"

In which particular games did this happen?

You must be able to give full details, so scathing is your analysis.

Edited April 11, 2019 by AllRoverAsia

[Ewood Ace]

47 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

He’s right btw. Reed and Travis at times vacate the CM and create holes for teams to annaihilate us in transition and on the counter. Derby didn’t do this because their style of play is not incisive, it’s possession based and (currently) very lethargic. The conundrum for TM is that Reed and Travis are far superior footballers than Evans and Smallwood. I personally would like to see Reed and Travis continue against the remaining teams purely to see how it affects this thread! Because teams like Norwich, Swansea and even Forest will murder us if our midfield vacates chasing into areas that weaken us. Ideally, they both play every week and learn to play that position better. 

Can you give an example of when Travis and Reed have played central midfield together and we have been annihilated?  Because I can't think of any but I can think of a number of times when Smallwood and Evans have played alongside each other and we have been annihilated.

[JHRover]

56 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

He’s right btw. Reed and Travis at times vacate the CM and create holes for teams to annaihilate us in transition and on the counter. Derby didn’t do this because their style of play is not incisive, it’s possession based and (currently) very lethargic. The conundrum for TM is that Reed and Travis are far superior footballers than Evans and Smallwood. I personally would like to see Reed and Travis continue against the remaining teams purely to see how it affects this thread! Because teams like Norwich, Swansea and even Forest will murder us if our midfield vacates chasing into areas that weaken us. Ideally, they both play every week and learn to play that position better. 

On which occasions this season with Reed and Travis in midfield (either as a central partnership or with Reed on the right) have we been 'annihilated' on the counter? I can't remember us receiving many comprehensive beatings in games they have both played in the side, nor in those heavy defeats do I believe they would have been averted had Smallwood/Evans been there instead. Brentford maybe but that also included Evans in CM so can't really lay the blame at Reed's door for that one. Same at Sheffield Wednesday.

On recollection our 3 most recent and arguably convincing wins of the season were Hull, Wigan and Derby at home. In all 3 Reed and Travis started in midfield, in the latter two they were the CM partnership and against Hull I think Evans started with Travis with Reed on the right.

3 x clean sheets, 8 goals scored and comprehensive victories, 2 of them - against Derby and Hull - were against good or in form sides.

I could completely buy into the argument that Evans and Smallwood are better defensively and protect the defence better than Reed and Travis but I can't see the data or evidence backing that up. Not only have we played better football but we've also managed clean sheets with them in midfield.

For Bolton and Swansea home games and QPR away I think there will be a lot of unhappy supporters if we start either of those games with Smallwood/Evans if not enforced. He might get more sympathy at Forest and Norwich due to the standard of the opposition and us being away from home but at this stage in the season it would be nice to show some attacking intent in all our remaining fixtures with little to lose and also show some evidence of moving things on rather than going back to the tried and tested.

Swansea ended up murdering us at their place with Evans and Smallwood in CM.

Edited April 11, 2019 by JHRover

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, JHRover said:

On which occasions this season with Reed and Travis in midfield (either as a central partnership or with Reed on the right) have we been 'annihilated' on the counter? I can't remember us receiving any comprehensive beatings in games they have both played in the side. Brentford maybe but that also included Evans in CM so can't really lay the blame at Reed's door for that one. Same at Sheffield Wednesday.

On recollection our 3 most recent and arguably convincing wins of the season were Hull, Wigan and Derby at home. In all 3 Reed and Travis started in midfield, in the latter two they were the CM partnership and against Hull I think Evans started with Travis with Reed on the right.

3 x clean sheets, 8 goals scored and comprehensive victories, 2 of them - against Derby and Hull - were against good or in form sides.

I could completely buy into the argument that Evans and Smallwood are better defensively and protect the defence better than Reed and Travis but I can't see the data backing that up. Not only have we played better football but we've also managed clean sheets with them in midfield.

For Bolton and Swansea home games and QPR away I think there will be a lot of unhappy supporters if we start either of those games with Smallwood/Evans if not enforced. He might get more sympathy at Forest and Norwich due to the standard of the opposition and us being away from home but at this stage in the season it would be nice to show some attacking intent in all our remaining fixtures with little to lose and also show some evidence of moving things on rather than going back to the tried and tested.

Swansea ended up murdering us at their place with Evans and Smallwood in CM.

It's obvious to me that with Evans and Smallwood playing you are effectively playing 6 at the back plus a goal keeper. That way you can only invite pressure and play most of the game on the defensive. As I said earlier if we were coming away with a succession of 1-0 wins a la Howard Kendall's team I might not like it but I could see the point. As it is we've had some real bangings this season and some of the football as been mind numbingly dull.

[Boz]

32 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

As you say, the summer will be vital for Mowbray but if he can add some experience in the right positions to what we already have - and with a glut of youngsters ready to be promoted to the senior squad - there is no reason why the future can't be extremely bright under Mowbray.  He will also know that if he can't get the right players in or money is not available then it will be difficult going forward.  This is going to be a very important summer but Mowbray has provided a platform on which to build and hopefully the owners will support him in taking it forward.

Yes it is a vital summer for Rovers and especially TM. To be honest I am unsure if Tony has the stomach for the necessary alterations, as it will mean addressing moving on some of his more experienced and perhaps more vocal dressing room players, which with the fantastic work on the team spirit he has engendered could have consequences. Similarly with his coaching staff, there are obvious inadequacies in certain departments, from which at times he might have felt disappointed at their combined contributions.  There could and should be some very tough decisions to be made in his playing AND coaching staff.

As for the glut of youngsters ready to be promoted, I personally am slightly concerned as to TM's ability and inclination to be the one to do so. If looking at his past record here, he's been more prone to do so as a last resort when we've had an injury crisis, rather than playing the kids and entrusting them. 

As an aside and perhaps to give some balance on the midfield conundrum. Let's not forget the very good form Corry started the season with. Plus the best midfield combinations have also included the good sense in a pairing, for one to drop when their partner makes a forage forwards. This happened on numerous occasions on Tuesday with Travis and Reed interchanging, plus even Rothwell made some very telling interceptions and tracked back very well, far better than Armstrong does. 

[Angry_Pirate]

2 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

It's obvious to me that with Evans and Smallwood playing you are effectively playing 6 at the back plus a goal keeper. 

It is obvious to me that with Smallwood playing you are effectively playing with 10 men. He's league below average.

After Tuesday, Mowbray has given himself one FINAL chance with me (and many others perhaps). If we get Smallwood in the starting lineup again with Reed, Travis, Evans on the bench for "Tactical" reasons, that chance will end. 

The only changes we should see now to the starting 11 are at RB with Nyambe, RW and maybe CB if Conway and Williams (likely) drop off. The other 8 pick themselves... and have done all season in my eyes.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Angry_Pirate

[K-Hod]

The two games we've won in the last twelve or whatever it is, have been when Reed and Travis have started in midfield.

Seems like that's some sort of coincidence though....

Edited April 11, 2019 by K-Hod

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Angry_Pirate said:

It is obvious to me that with Smallwood playing you are effectively playing with 10 men. He's league below average.

After Tuesday, Mowbray has given himself one FINAL chance with me (and many others perhaps). If we get Smallwood in the starting lineup again with Reed, Travis, Evans on the bench for "Tactical" reasons, that chance will end. 

The only changes we should see now  to the starting 11 are at RB with Nyambe, RW and maybe CB if Williams likely drops off. The other 8 pick themselves... and have done all season in my eyes.

I'd like to see Chapman given a whirl out on the wing, especially away from home were he can catch them on the break.  Bench Conway and Bennett and return Nyambe to right back.

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

He isn't going anywhere , so really, is there anything to be gained by leaving this thread open all summer? 

There is a Tony Mowbray thread to discuss what he says. This is just going to turn into an absolute moanfest over the summer.

Yes, of course I don't have to enter, but ultimately it's a waste of everyone's time and energy. 

You’ve answered your own question with the last sentence.

One could argue that the whole messageboard is a waste of everyone’s time and energy.  

[Stuart]

Just now, K-Hod said:

The two games we've won in the last twelve or whatever it is, have been when Reed and Travis have started in midfield.

Seems like that's some sort of coincidence though....

Mowbray needs to take the handbrake off. Is he afraid that they won’t sanction transfers if the team are playing well? Do they no longer trust his judgement?

I’m more afraid of Mowbray turning our good players into average ones - or them leaving altogether!

Bowyer did exactly the same thing. Lowe preferred to King. Where are they both playing now?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, rigger said:

No the key is to win games.

And we don't do this when Evans and Smallwood have been playing recently.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

He’s a good manager mate. That’s not difficult to see. He’s achieving his goals, has a hard working team and has united the fan base with the club. 

Has he made mistakes? Yes. Will he continue to make mistakes? Yes. Will he ever become a Rovers legend? Who knows? 

The point is, that we have a good manager and a team of players who work hard and care. The summer is crucial in us moving forwards and imo will be Tony’s defining moment at Rovers. If he has a great summer then who knows. A bad summer and he may be gone before Christmas.

He's an average manager pal he's been good for us so far up to a point and I hope he can rediscover last seasons mentality to drive it forwards a bit however his overall record in football is bang on average and at times you can see why clearly.

I like the guy I want him carry on building the club from inside out but after 2 and a half seasons I know what i'm seeing and it has resembled his latter stages at other clubs.  Don't get me wrong him being average is no bad thing compared to some of the dross/inexperience and outright clowns these lot have employed and made wealthy but he's facing a real test of his mettle now.

Edited April 11, 2019 by tomphil

[Stuart]

Mowbray is a good manager in League One. In the Championship he is distinctly below average. His workmanlike teams can grind our results in the third tier. At this level you need a lot more.

As long as he maintains low expectations and has fans like Mani on his side he will have a job for a long time. If he has us in and around the play-offs then he will raise expectations that he can’t deliver on.

Is that what this club wants? 18,000 empty seats say otherwise.

Is that what this club needs? £160m - £180m of debt and rising says otherwise.

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, Stuart said:

You’ve answered your own question with the last sentence.

One could argue that the whole messageboard is a waste of everyone’s time and energy.  

No argument in that ?

[Dreams of 1995]

A worrying sign is how easy it has been for us to descend into an utterly abysmal run of defeats. Not many managers maintain such streaks but Mowbray has been on terrible spells at every single club he has been at. I'm sure he lost 9 in a row at Cov before finally being potted. It doesn't inspire any confidence whatsoever. 

[Mercer]

2 hours ago, Tom Stinny said:

Kean quote - Goodwillie is the new Scottish Wayne Rooney. 

Mowbray quote - Evans and Smallwood play better than Reed.

I think Mowbray is morphing into Kean and C o y l e.

The man has no credibility left in my view.

IMO, sheer madness to keep him as manager.  No, ifs and buts, I think he's clearly demonstrated he's unfit for purpose.

No room for sentiment in football.

[JHRover]

Interesting to see that many Wigan fans are at the end of their tether with Paul Cook and want him gone either now or at the end of the season.

A quick scroll through some of their forum pages and the majority seem to be completely fed up with him, his excuses, their performances and results and are unhappy with his team selections and overall approach. Then a few saying they should hold on or he hasn't done too badly if he keeps them up.

Now granted they are in more danger than we are and their poor run has probably been going on slightly longer, but by the same token many would argue he at least matched if not bettered Mowbray's performance last season in winning the league on a smaller budget and has had to contend with a lengthy takeover. They're now on something like 1 win in 11 and 2 wins in 25 or something ridiculous like that.

Point being that pressure building on the manager and criticism of him and question marks over his future is not some irrational behaviour demonstrated only by Rovers fans, that fans everywhere will criticise and the pressure will build regardless of past achievements and popularity. If it is clear things aren't working questions will be asked. Nothing also to do with Rovers fans being 'spoiled' 20 odd years ago either. Here and now if it isn't good enough complaints will be raised.

Edited April 11, 2019 by JHRover