Mowbray: Stay or go?

[47er]

1 hour ago, joey_big_nose said:

After another strong performance from the U23s I'd like to see one of the young centre backs give a whirl alongside Lenihan before the end of the season.

Not next game as Williams played well last time out and we should keep the same team. But when we do need a change let's go for a youngster over Mulgrew or Rodwell.

Also would love to see Chapman on the bench.

Let's get Wharton back in the summer.

[Pedro]

12 minutes ago, Neal said:

Just listened to Chris Wilders post match interview "for 2 years we've played to win games and today we took a step backwards and played safe, you're not going to win anything playing like that"

 

Take note Tony Mowbray. 

It was Bowyer's downfall too.  That was such a missed opportunity back then.

[pk1875]

2 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

And next season without momentum? 

I'd say we MUST progress again next season aim for top 8 with a minimum of top 10, a fine margin but we can't afford to tread water for years in this league.

[blueboy3333]

1 hour ago, Neal said:

Just listened to Chris Wilders post match interview "for 2 years we've played to win games and today we took a step backwards and played safe, you're not going to win anything playing like that"

 

Take note Tony Mowbray. 

Heard the same interview on Saturday and thought exactly the same. Sadly I don't think Tony is likely to adapt. 

[Stuart]

“It’s only our second season in the Championship. Look at Leeds.”

You heard it here first...

[JHRover]

Just now, Stuart said:

“It’s only our second season in the Championship. Look at Leeds.”

You heard it here first...

But we're copying Sheffield United's blueprint, so looking forward to next season.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, JHRover said:

But we're copying Sheffield United's blueprint, so looking forward to next season.

A couple of decent signings and giving some of these kids some game time and we could be. Stay with the usual suspects and it'll be another slog.  

[Stuart]

#supporttheclubnottheindividual

#worstrunofanymanagerundervenkys

#shouldniceblokesbegivenunlimitedtimeandmoney

#willhedoanythingdifferentlikechangehiscoachingstaff

#snatchedavoidingrelegationfromthejawsofplsyoffhopefuls

#boughthimselftime

#hashtag

[Paul Mani]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

#supporttheclubnottheindividual

#worstrunofanymanagerundervenkys

#shouldniceblokesbegivenunlimitedtimeandmoney

#willhedoanythingdifferentlikechangehiscoachingstaff

#snatchedavoidingrelegationfromthejawsofplsyoffhopefuls

#boughthimselftime

#hashtag

Please could you apologise for your patronising, inflammatory post.

[scotchrover]

I’ve voted for him to stay. It hasn’t been perfect this year, but he’s achieved what I wanted- survival. 

I might get slated for saying this on here by some, but looking ahead, another mid table finish next season would keep me happy, especially with some of the daft money that’s being chucked around. 

[philipl]

Sticking with holding Mowbray to getting to his 60 points total in settling my view on giving him another chance.

Frankly there was precious little between the performance at Forest and most of the games in the two horrible runs of losses. Difference was Forest didn't take the chances we gifted them.  

Stoke was criminally bad from Mowbray.

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

My main concern is he will stick with his favourites and we kick off the first game next year with Smallwood and Evans in the middle. This would be a clear sign that he hasn't learned anything from this year and would be the final straw for me. 

We're four players off giving the play offs a decent crack next year imo and I'm hoping Mowbrays comments in the media about needing to strengthen the current squad only in case of injury are a smoke screen, though I struggle to see how that'll work in the budget meeting with Venkys. 

So I've voted for him to go but I've accepted he has the summer to improve the squad, more for my own sanity than any rational thinking because he ain't going anywhere. 

[Mattyblue]

Wonder if he’ll be telling Venky’s to ‘slow down’ again this summer?

[Stuart]

8 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

Please could you apologise for your patronising, inflammatory post.

Still waiting.

[blueboy3333]

25 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Wonder if he’ll be telling Venky’s to ‘slow down’ again this summer?

Yes. Tony and Steve are building a pension club. It will take years. 

[deryck guyler's spoon]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Yes. Tony and Steve are building a pension club. It will take years. 

A few weeks ago we engaged on the subject of TM and I asked why you were so down on him. To paraphrase you said something to the effect that you liked him but you didn't buy his "open, honest" reputation and that you believed that he'd say what was necessary to placate the fans and the owners. How have you gone from that to this which seems to suggest that, at best, he's underhand and at worst he's corrupt?

 

By the way you did great work on finding his quote on leaving Coventry and I admit that it shook my confidence in him.  

[BankEnd Rover]

51 minutes ago, CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber said:

My main concern is he will stick with his favourites and we kick off the first game next year with Smallwood and Evans in the middle. This would be a clear sign that he hasn't learned anything from this year and would be the final straw for me. 

We're four players off giving the play offs a decent crack next year imo and I'm hoping Mowbrays comments in the media about needing to strengthen the current squad only in case of injury are a smoke screen, though I struggle to see how that'll work in the budget meeting with Venkys. 

So I've voted for him to go but I've accepted he has the summer to improve the squad, more for my own sanity than any rational thinking because he ain't going anywhere. 

Exactly my thoughts!

[Atko's Engine]

About 4 games ago I voted stay, without having time to explain my reasons. I don't expect many to agree or any to change their minds on the back of this, but I'll say my piece anyway, whatever flak might come my way.I think TM has achieved about as much as he reasonably could have done in his time here. We were a real sh*tshow when he arrived and I believe that he is giving us a sound platform on which to build.

I've said on another thread that he's not perfect. He's made some strange tactical decisions, stayed too loyal to some players and made some errors in his transfer dealings (or lack thereof).  He's sometime not carried through into matchday what he's hinted at previously (e.g. style of play, blooding youth) and often gives too much respect to the opposition (publicly in his words, and also in his selections).

But does that mean he ought to lose his job? Has he been that poor to be said to have underachieved? I don't think so. I'm not perfect in my job either and get some things wrong / make misjudgments, but overall, viewed across the piece, I do a good job for my employer and therefore I get to keep it (so far!). 

Why does TM deserve to lose his job? We're now officially better off then when he arrived, by all assessable measures:

League position - never been in bottom 3 all season, and safe for next season with 4 games to go

Points tally - now on 53, we went down on 51 which was a record relegation tally in its own right

Assets - our squad has a higher value than it was when he took over

I don't think it's fair to move the goalposts in front of him. When he arrived I don't think there was massive confidence from anyone that he could save us from the drop; had he done he would have legendary status amongst fans. He nearly did it though, and but for a freak season he would have achieved it.  Yes we can point to individual games and say that's where we didn't get the point or goal that would have saved us, but that's overlooking the simple fact that he put us in a position to make the margins so tight. Yet some on here hold a grudge against him for not actually stopping relegation, even if they accept he wasn't ultimately responsible for it and were prepared to back him in L1.

Last season, after a slow start he got us comfortably promoted; but for a freak showing by Shrewsbury it would have been far more comfortable.  Of course, that was the only acceptable ultimate goal but how many actually genuinely thought we would do it automatically at the first time of asking? Many on here were talking about dropping through the the league's & the club going under, which was a genuine concern. But he got us promoted (admittedly with some bumps on the way; that happens across 46 games) yet gets criticised for not doing it more comfortably or pushing on for the title as hard as people would like. 

This season being competitive not fighting relegation & with a possible push for top half, was the best we were likely to achieve realistically.  Here we are, safe with 4 games left and top half in our sights. I would say overall that's a sound if unspectacular achievement, & foundations set for a promotion push next season. Admittedly we had an awful run of late and it was hard to see where the next win was coming from.  But I remember thinking the same at Christmas, then January brought 4 wins in a row. Good runs and bad runs happen in football; if the good and bad had been more evenly spread, would TM be being criticized so vehemently? I doubt it; it's only because we were so well placed in late Jan that he is now being criticized for not putting in a promotion push, which realistically was never the aim at the outset, even after shelling out for BB.

Next season, push for promotion. The foundations are there, and TM is the one who has built them. There is a good strong nucleus of young players, clearly with some attacking talent; the U23s have pulled up trees, all credit to DJ for that and he readily gives credit to TM for his commitment at that level too.  There's structure and stability at the heart of the club, which there wasn't 26 months ago. There's work to do at the back & centre mid, and a replacement for DG to be found (either like for like or via a change in system).  TM deserves the chance to achieve that; he said 4 windows, I think that's fair.

To expect much more than what he has done is, in my opinion, expecting perfection. No one should be expected to achieve perfection or criticized for failing to achieve it, nor should he be deprived of the chance to improve further given what's been achieved so far.

[47er]

17 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

 

To expect much more than what he has done is, in my opinion, expecting perfection. No one should be expected to achieve perfection or criticized for failing to achieve it, nor should he be deprived of the chance to improve further given what's been achieved so far.

Strawman alert!

No-one expects perfection and TM hasn't come anywhere near it.

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, philipl said:

Sticking with holding Mowbray to getting to his 60 points total in settling my view on giving him another chance.

Frankly there was precious little between the performance at Forest and most of the games in the two horrible runs of losses. Difference was Forest didn't take the chances we gifted them.  

Stoke was criminally bad from Mowbray.

For me its a myth that Mowbray has peddled that the performance level was good even throughout our horrendous run.

I havent seen the whole Forest game but the performances against Boro, Rotherham, Stoke, Preston, Bristol City and Reading were all insipid and of course add into that the humilliating collapse at Brentford.

My main question mark hangs around this theory that Mowbray knows what is needed in the summer, and that he will be ruthless with the senior players. Im not sure where such an assumption comes from.

The Derby game felt like a new dawn, no Mulgrew, Smallwood or Evans, Rothwell taking his chance with him and Dack both unplayable, backed up by the energy and tenacity of Reed and Travis ensuring that Derby were pinned in for much of the game. Mowbray however repeatedly mentions the importance he places in his senior players running the dressing room but that can be dangerous if and when them (or some of them at least) senior players get to a stage where they are no longer up to it on the pitch. Its very difficult and for me fanciful to expect the likes of Mulgrew, Bennett, Conway (admittedly impressive v Derby but well past his best), Smallwood and Evans to all have stepped aside and not all in strong contention for a start on the opening day next season.

[Dreams of 1995]

31 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

For me its a myth that Mowbray has peddled that the performance level was good even throughout our horrendous run.

I havent seen the whole Forest game but the performances against Boro, Rotherham, Stoke, Preston, Bristol City and Reading were all insipid and of course add into that the humilliating collapse at Brentford.

My main question mark hangs around this theory that Mowbray knows what is needed in the summer, and that he will be ruthless with the senior players. Im not sure where such an assumption comes from.

The Derby game felt like a new dawn, no Mulgrew, Smallwood or Evans, Rothwell taking his chance with him and Dack both unplayable, backed up by the energy and tenacity of Reed and Travis ensuring that Derby were pinned in for much of the game. Mowbray however repeatedly mentions the importance he places in his senior players running the dressing room but that can be dangerous if and when them (or some of them at least) senior players get to a stage where they are no longer up to it on the pitch. Its very difficult and for me fanciful to expect the likes of Mulgrew, Bennett, Conway (admittedly impressive v Derby but well past his best), Smallwood and Evans to all have stepped aside and not all in strong contention for a start on the opening day next season.

To be contrarian do you think any manager will come in and completely decimate the seniority of the squad? No one in his right mind would change out every single one of them players in one window.

In hindsight extending some of their contracts may have been a mistake. Smallwood and Evans aren't good enough in the middle when together but you are happy enough with them in the squad. 

I don't think anyone can be in any doubt that Mulgrew isn't our answer at centre back. For me that will be the big test of Mowbray's management - whether or not he will drop Mulgrew and keep him on side. 

[roversinmyblood]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

About 4 games ago I voted stay, without having time to explain my reasons. I don't expect many to agree or any to change their minds on the back of this, but I'll say my piece anyway, whatever flak might come my way.I think TM has achieved about as much as he reasonably could have done in his time here. We were a real sh*tshow when he arrived and I believe that he is giving us a sound platform on which to build.

I've said on another thread that he's not perfect. He's made some strange tactical decisions, stayed too loyal to some players and made some errors in his transfer dealings (or lack thereof).  He's sometime not carried through into matchday what he's hinted at previously (e.g. style of play, blooding youth) and often gives too much respect to the opposition (publicly in his words, and also in his selections).

But does that mean he ought to lose his job? Has he been that poor to be said to have underachieved? I don't think so. I'm not perfect in my job either and get some things wrong / make misjudgments, but overall, viewed across the piece, I do a good job for my employer and therefore I get to keep it (so far!). 

Why does TM deserve to lose his job? We're now officially better off then when he arrived, by all assessable measures:

League position - never been in bottom 3 all season, and safe for next season with 4 games to go

Points tally - now on 53, we went down on 51 which was a record relegation tally in its own right

Assets - our squad has a higher value than it was when he took over

I don't think it's fair to move the goalposts in front of him. When he arrived I don't think there was massive confidence from anyone that he could save us from the drop; had he done he would have legendary status amongst fans. He nearly did it though, and but for a freak season he would have achieved it.  Yes we can point to individual games and say that's where we didn't get the point or goal that would have saved us, but that's overlooking the simple fact that he put us in a position to make the margins so tight. Yet some on here hold a grudge against him for not actually stopping relegation, even if they accept he wasn't ultimately responsible for it and were prepared to back him in L1.

Last season, after a slow start he got us comfortably promoted; but for a freak showing by Shrewsbury it would have been far more comfortable.  Of course, that was the only acceptable ultimate goal but how many actually genuinely thought we would do it automatically at the first time of asking? Many on here were talking about dropping through the the league's & the club going under, which was a genuine concern. But he got us promoted (admittedly with some bumps on the way; that happens across 46 games) yet gets criticised for not doing it more comfortably or pushing on for the title as hard as people would like. 

This season being competitive not fighting relegation & with a possible push for top half, was the best we were likely to achieve realistically.  Here we are, safe with 4 games left and top half in our sights. I would say overall that's a sound if unspectacular achievement, & foundations set for a promotion push next season. Admittedly we had an awful run of late and it was hard to see where the next win was coming from.  But I remember thinking the same at Christmas, then January brought 4 wins in a row. Good runs and bad runs happen in football; if the good and bad had been more evenly spread, would TM be being criticized so vehemently? I doubt it; it's only because we were so well placed in late Jan that he is now being criticized for not putting in a promotion push, which realistically was never the aim at the outset, even after shelling out for BB.

Next season, push for promotion. The foundations are there, and TM is the one who has built them. There is a good strong nucleus of young players, clearly with some attacking talent; the U23s have pulled up trees, all credit to DJ for that and he readily gives credit to TM for his commitment at that level too.  There's structure and stability at the heart of the club, which there wasn't 26 months ago. There's work to do at the back & centre mid, and a replacement for DG to be found (either like for like or via a change in system).  TM deserves the chance to achieve that; he said 4 windows, I think that's fair.

To expect much more than what he has done is, in my opinion, expecting perfection. No one should be expected to achieve perfection or criticized for failing to achieve it, nor should he be deprived of the chance to improve further given what's been achieved so far.

Very good summary which I agree with. My only concern is that he may keep with his favourites next season rather than upgrade because they make his job easy by managing the team for him. I think that he needs to be more “his own man” and take control. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

The next 4 games will tell us a lot.

Mowbray has said more of the under 23s will play, so i think we are in for some exciting line ups. 

[DE.]

33 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

The next 4 games will tell us a lot.

Mowbray has said more of the under 23s will play, so i think we are in for some exciting line ups. 

Honestly I don't think the next four games will tell us anything at all. They're pretty meaningless. Our meaningful games were in february after we clawed ourselves back into a great position after a disastrous November/December, and once again we spectacularly blew it.

I firmly believe Mowbray has run his race here and the summer will be as disappointing as every transfer window so far, minus the first one in summer 2017. I think next season will be more difficult and we could easily be in a relegation struggle. 

That said, I can't blame people for believing that Mowbray can succeed. We all want him to, after all, and it's not like our idiot owners are going to go out and get anybody better. Mowbray coming to his senses, realising his mistakes and strengthening the team smartly this summer is realistically the best possible option - albeit one I also think is highly unlikely. 

I've voted for him to go and remain with that vote because I think he will have us at the wrong end of the table next season, with infuriating team selections, players out of position and no real control over the dressing room. I would absolutely love for him to prove me wrong though, and I'm hoping beyond hope that he does, because otherwise we'll end up playing Venky Roulette again and I'm pretty sure Steve Kean will still be out of work by then. 

[Mattyblue]

Be interesting to see how long this ‘player managed dressing room’ stays onside with top earners and ‘managers’ like Mulgrew and Evans out the side - or perhaps that’s a reason they won’t be...