Mowbray: Stay or go?

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

I still have a feeling that Reed said or did something to piss Mowbray off. Hence his sudden bench time and now returning to Southampton with no indication he'll be back this season or next. I think we will unfortunately have to forget about this one and move forward. It seems to take Mowbray a long time to regain trust in a player after they've done something to annoy him. Look at Travis! That red card last season seemed to make him persona non grata for a long time.

Yet Smallwood can do it and it's no problemo. Bennett last season too. I really feel that TM lets the more senior pros get away with things he punishes the hell out of younger players for. Another example is that Nyambe had a few off games in December I think it was, and he got benched for pretty much three months as a result. Meanwhile, Bennett has put several runs of poor games together and is a mainstay. Williams has been frequently awful but is always in or around the first team. It's bizarre.

The only logical explanation (beyond doing it to keep his core of senior players, who he consults on everything with, happy) is that maybe he thinks the older players are too old to learn, but that it will help the younger players develop. I don't buy that, but at least there'd be a line of thinking which wasn't sychophantic.

On Reed though, in fairness he did have a bit of a run of not being fully at the races. I don't think he was particularly any worse than Smallwood though during it. I think the fact he isn't our player and doesn't seem likely to become so is also a factor.

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

I still have a feeling that Reed said or did something to piss Mowbray off. Hence his sudden bench time and now returning to Southampton with no indication he'll be back this season or next. I think we will unfortunately have to forget about this one and move forward. It seems to take Mowbray a long time to regain trust in a player after they've done something to annoy him. Look at Travis! That red card last season seemed to make him persona non grata for a long time.

And Rothwell.

“Do what I want you to do it you are dropped?”

A good mantra for any manager:

Problem 1 - you have to be right (your tactics deliver points or at least performances)

Problem 2 - you have to be consistent (you hold your experienced players to the same standards/requirements as newer ones)

In my view Mowbray fails both of these tests, and doesn’t look like changing any time soon.

[Stuart]

3 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/17581217.tony-mowbray-on-exceptionally-talented-rovers-loanee-reed/

 

Reed is 24, so he's not that young for a footballer and should be playing regular first team football by now.

Soton will be likely be in the PL next season, so staying there is pointless for Reed as he's unlikely to be get much game time

He's proved himself an outstanding performer in the Championship, and seems to like it at Ewood, so why isn't Mowbray making noises about trying to keep him ?

And unless he has other irons in the fire, where is he going to find better ?

I’m starting to really resent every word that comes out of his mouth.

“Reed was inconsistent in his impact on games.”

Mowbray knows that his best position is in the middle and yet plays him out wide. Then he calls him inconsistent. This despite him regularly being the best player on the pitch.

It’s Mowbray’s way or the highway. Sadly Mowbray’s way means suppressing talent, poor football and losing football matches. Apart from now and again when he relents and plays players to their strengths.

[Butty]

Just now, Stuart said:

I’m starting to really resent every word that comes out of his mouth.

“Reed was inconsistent in his impact on games.”

Mowbray knows that his best position is in the middle and yet plays him out wide. Then he calls him inconsistent. This despite him regularly being the best player on the pitch.

It’s Mowbray’s way or the highway. Sadly Mowbray’s way means suppressing talent, poor football and losing football matches. Apart from now and again when he relents and plays players to their strengths.

Maybe Mowbray doesn’t want too come out right and say that we can’t afford too sign him permenantly? As that would mean admitting he’s spent all our budget on a 19 year old kid who doesn’t even look like a footballer at the best of times.. He’s going too get stick either way. 

[Ewood Ace]

54 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

Yet Smallwood can do it and it's no problemo. Bennett last season too. I really feel that TM lets the more senior pros get away with things he punishes the hell out of younger players for. Another example is that Nyambe had a few off games in December I think it was, and he got benched for pretty much three months as a result. Meanwhile, Bennett has put several runs of poor games together and is a mainstay. Williams has been frequently awful but is always in or around the first team. It's bizarre.

I think he's afraid of the older players, I get the impression that they run the dressing room and he is worried that if he upsets them then he will lose the dressing room. Whereas young lads like Reed, Nyambe, Raya and Rothwell are easy pickings. 

[Stuart]

Just now, Butty said:

Maybe Mowbray doesn’t want too come out right and say that we can’t afford too sign him permenantly? As that would mean admitting he’s spent all our budget on a 19 year old kid who doesn’t even look like a footballer at the best of times.. He’s going too get stick either way. 

Well with those words there’s no way Reed will be making any noises to come back to us anyway.

But your point does highlight our poor recruitment under Mowbray. We get in a player who can make a real difference - a huge upgrade on Evans - but has to fit in our wide to accommodate the latter and Smallwood. The player made no secret that he sees himself as a PL player and Mowbray has done very little to convince him (or is) that Rovers ambitions match his and that he can play a big part in getting us there. We then squander the transfer budget on a one-match pony (against two of the worst left-sided players in recent Rovers memory) and in all likelihood couldn’t now afford him anyway.

I guess we’ll find out if Venkys will once again promise Mowbray cash to spend in the Summer.

I wouldn’t.

[AAK]

Said it before and ill say it again, any manager who plays smallwood, evans, nuttall, bennett, raya, williams and mulgrew in this division and doesnt really think any of them need replacing or thinks theyre prospects, simply IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Either he is deluded or we have zero money and knows we cant replace, but then again also chucks away 10.5 million on two dollopers armstrong and brereton. I think its smokescreen tony knowing he is terrible at spending money but for some reason has got the owners on board to spend it, its all very silly.

Edited April 18, 2019 by AAK

[Butty]

13 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Well with those words there’s no way Reed will be making any noises to come back to us anyway.

But your point does highlight our poor recruitment under Mowbray. We get in a player who can make a real difference - a huge upgrade on Evans - but has to fit in our wide to accommodate the latter and Smallwood. The player made no secret that he sees himself as a PL player and Mowbray has done very little to convince him (or is) that Rovers ambitions match his and that he can play a big part in getting us there. We then squander the transfer budget on a one-match pony (against two of the worst left-sided players in recent Rovers memory) and in all likelihood couldn’t now afford him anyway.

I guess we’ll find out if Venkys will once again promise Mowbray cash to spend in the Summer.

I wouldn’t.

Back too the frees and the loans this summer I think, unless we sell Dack for a decent sum. 

[Atko's Engine]

12 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

The premise of your argument is fundamentally wrong. You think he's inherited a load of pub footballers in the Prem. He didn't, he inherited the best footballers in L1 (eventually) and was able to add some other top L1 footballers. 

This thread is about peoples faith in his ability to take us forward. That's what people are commenting on. 

I think he inherited a club in crisis, players (& fans) low on confidence, galvanised them (as you rightly said in another post) & very nearly saved them from the drop. At that time, I don't recall there there being massive expectation of automatic promotion; demand yes, tons of that, but not much expectation. Fair enough I'd say; League One's recent history is littered with clubs bigger & less basket-case clubs than we were then, who spent more than one season there (or worse), and TM's last stint there hardly ended in glory. So you could argue that he exceeded expectations (as opposed to demands) in that respect.

I'd certainly say he's at least matched expectations this year, if not exceeded them. Realistically survival was the aim this year, & he's achieved that with 10% of the season to spare. That would have suited most on here in August as back to back promotions are almost unheard of, but as the first half of the season went so well (despite some crushing late goals conceded) and left us pushing on the top 6 in November, and again by the end of January, he became a victim of his own success.  Now he's being judged not on achieving survival / consolidation, but on not pushing for promotion when there was little more than an outside chance of it. That's led people to think he can't take the club further, be that League position or playing style, but that was never the aim at the outset of this season! People have therefore moved the goalposts on him, which I think is an unfair way to judge him.

Now people want him gone, his every comment is analysed by many in the context of finding negatives to justify the rhetoric. Yes he's cautious, sometimes frustratingly so, but I tend to think that's because he's conscientious and respectful of what this club has been through recently. I don't think he's the best manager out there either, but I do think he has done as much as could be expected of him (if not more) and deserves the chance he will get to move onto the next stage of development.

Fortunately, from my pov at least, he will get that chance. I can see positives going forwards and am happy to let him get on with the gradual rebuilding job that is indicative of a properly run outfit. I'm quite sure most people on here want him to succeed too given that he is going nowhere as that's obviously good for the club, so hopefully my optimism is well placed...!

[Blue blood]

3 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Yet Smallwood can do it and it's no problemo. Bennett last season too. I really feel that TM lets the more senior pros get away with things he punishes the hell out of younger players for. Another example is that Nyambe had a few off games in December I think it was, and he got benched for pretty much three months as a result. Meanwhile, Bennett has put several runs of poor games together and is a mainstay. Williams has been frequently awful but is always in or around the first team. It's bizarre.

The only logical explanation (beyond doing it to keep his core of senior players, who he consults on everything with, happy) is that maybe he thinks the older players are too old to learn, but that it will help the younger players develop. I don't buy that, but at least there'd be a line of thinking which wasn't sychophantic.

On Reed though, in fairness he did have a bit of a run of not being fully at the races. I don't think he was particularly any worse than Smallwood though during it. I think the fact he isn't our player and doesn't seem likely to become so is also a factor.

 

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

I’m starting to really resent every word that comes out of his mouth.

“Reed was inconsistent in his impact on games.”

Mowbray knows that his best position is in the middle and yet plays him out wide. Then he calls him inconsistent. This despite him regularly being the best player on the pitch.

It’s Mowbray’s way or the highway. Sadly Mowbray’s way means suppressing talent, poor football and losing football matches. Apart from now and again when he relents and plays players to their strengths.

 

I think these posts sum up my frustrations and worries the most really. It's one rule for one, another for others. It strikes me as a manager scared of his senior players. Ultimately though, it's going to leave us stuffed, because there are a lot more players out of the clique than in it, and it allows a half dozen players to coast along, which is very dangerous place to be. It's probably already cost us Reed, and possibly Rodwell as well (although I'm not too impressed by him at cb). I think the comments, and what lies behind them, as much as the results are beginning to get me worried as to which direction we'll go in under TM. 

I'm sure all good managers drop players when they're not performing - can remember Souness doing it with Flitty, Hughes with Savage, and that's just off the top of my head. I'm less and less convinced TM is a good manager and like him less and less as a person. It's a shame, as the first couple of years he brought a lot of positives to the club and has done a fair bit for us. I fear now he's only going to sour and sully his time at Rovers. 

 

[Blue blood]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

I think he inherited a club in crisis, players (& fans) low on confidence, galvanised them (as you rightly said in another post) & very nearly saved them from the drop. At that time, I don't recall there there being massive expectation of automatic promotion; demand yes, tons of that, but not much expectation. Fair enough I'd say; League One's recent history is littered with clubs bigger & less basket-case clubs than we were then, who spent more than one season there (or worse), and TM's last stint there hardly ended in glory. So you could argue that he exceeded expectations (as opposed to demands) in that respect.

I'd certainly say he's at least matched expectations this year, if not exceeded them. Realistically survival was the aim this year, & he's achieved that with 10% of the season to spare. That would have suited most on here in August as back to back promotions are almost unheard of, but as the first half of the season went so well (despite some crushing late goals conceded) and left us pushing on the top 6 in November, and again by the end of January, he became a victim of his own success.  Now he's being judged not on achieving survival / consolidation, but on not pushing for promotion when there was little more than an outside chance of it. That's led people to think he can't take the club further, be that League position or playing style, but that was never the aim at the outset of this season! People have therefore moved the goalposts on him, which I think is an unfair way to judge him.

Now people want him gone, his every comment is analysed by many in the context of finding negatives to justify the rhetoric. Yes he's cautious, sometimes frustratingly so, but I tend to think that's because he's conscientious and respectful of what this club has been through recently. I don't think he's the best manager out there either, but I do think he has done as much as could be expected of him (if not more) and deserves the chance he will get to move onto the next stage of development.

Fortunately, from my pov at least, he will get that chance. I can see positives going forwards and am happy to let him get on with the gradual rebuilding job that is indicative of a properly run outfit. I'm quite sure most people on here want him to succeed too given that he is going nowhere as that's obviously good for the club, so hopefully my optimism is well placed...!

Looking for negatives. 

Just one genuine question - how is it fair or good management to call out and drop Reed and Nayambe, yet not Bennett, Mulgrew, Smallwood etc.? 

That's not  looking for negatives those are simple facts. Do you think they are positive actions and comments?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

I think he inherited a club in crisis, players (& fans) low on confidence, galvanised them (as you rightly said in another post) & very nearly saved them from the drop. At that time, I don't recall there there being massive expectation of automatic promotion; demand yes, tons of that, but not much expectation. Fair enough I'd say; League One's recent history is littered with clubs bigger & less basket-case clubs than we were then, who spent more than one season there (or worse), and TM's last stint there hardly ended in glory. So you could argue that he exceeded expectations (as opposed to demands) in that respect.

I'd certainly say he's at least matched expectations this year, if not exceeded them. Realistically survival was the aim this year, & he's achieved that with 10% of the season to spare. That would have suited most on here in August as back to back promotions are almost unheard of, but as the first half of the season went so well (despite some crushing late goals conceded) and left us pushing on the top 6 in November, and again by the end of January, he became a victim of his own success.  Now he's being judged not on achieving survival / consolidation, but on not pushing for promotion when there was little more than an outside chance of it. That's led people to think he can't take the club further, be that League position or playing style, but that was never the aim at the outset of this season! People have therefore moved the goalposts on him, which I think is an unfair way to judge him.

Now people want him gone, his every comment is analysed by many in the context of finding negatives to justify the rhetoric. Yes he's cautious, sometimes frustratingly so, but I tend to think that's because he's conscientious and respectful of what this club has been through recently. I don't think he's the best manager out there either, but I do think he has done as much as could be expected of him (if not more) and deserves the chance he will get to move onto the next stage of development.

Fortunately, from my pov at least, he will get that chance. I can see positives going forwards and am happy to let him get on with the gradual rebuilding job that is indicative of a properly run outfit. I'm quite sure most people on here want him to succeed too given that he is going nowhere as that's obviously good for the club, so hopefully my optimism is well placed...!

My prediction of our league position at the end of this season last autumn was around 6th from bottom. However that was based on the usual Chicken Chokers financing of transfers and before we blew the best part of £ 10 million on two young strikers.

[Stuart]

Ah, the old ‘negative fans’ shout out.

How is wanting Mowbray to play Rothwell, Reed and Travis seen to be negative? Especially with evidence of it working.

Equally, how can playing Smallwood, Evans and Bennett (out of position and out of form) be seen as positive? With evidence of it failing.

”Fortunately he will get a chance” - a chance to do what? Based on his latest comments, he wants a better, more consistent player than Reed. How exactly is he going to achieve that? Particularly when he believes Evans and Smallwood are our best midfielders. More in their mould?

Some people are in love with this romanticised, poor-man’s Bobby Robson that they have fashioned in their minds and are ignoring the warning signs that he has run out of ideas and is losing the respect of his players. Time and time again, he has persisted with, praised, and rewarded his favoured “experienced” negative-footballing players while regularly digging out, criticising and dropping talented, young, positive players. Again, who is the negative one?

Unless Tony wakes up things are going to turn very sour. Unless we upgrade on the first eleven - let alone replace those departing the squad - we could be in for another relegation battle next season.

[47er]

10 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

He said in an interview the other day that some of the under 23s will feature in the upcoming games. At that point, it's up to them. If they do as well as Travis, he can't ignore them. 

Oh yes he can!

[XLM]

This can be put very simply. The owners set out goals for the season after a discussion about what can be achieved with the finances available. That's how it works. This season the goal will have been survival, last season the goal was promotion. Mowbray has achieved both of those goals in his only full seasons at the club, fairly comfortably too it must be said.

Judge all you like on the relatively minute detail. It's pointless in this context. The choices he has made have achieved what has been asked of him, so he's earnt the right to continue. If he had a different remit, he may have made different choices. Who the hell knows... Fail to reach the goal next season (or not look like achieving it halfway through) and it's a different story.

If you don't agree with the goal that's set out or TM isn't financed properly, place the blame above Mowbray's head. If the goal isn't met due to tactics, motivation, coaching, whatever else, place the blame on his.

[blueboy3333]

3 hours ago, XLM said:

This can be put very simply. The owners set out goals for the season after a discussion about what can be achieved with the finances available. That's how it works. This season the goal will have been survival, last season the goal was promotion. Mowbray has achieved both of those goals in his only full seasons at the club, fairly comfortably too it must be said.

 

Huge assumption on this seasons 'goal'. Mowbray has said a couple of times that he has had to dampen down the owners expectations. He first said it in the summer. He talked of the need to 'educate' them about a 'slow build'. He never reported back on the outcome of those discussions. Unless you were there how can you know survival was the only target? 

So, probably not as simple as you think.

[HowieFive0]

1 hour ago, blueboy3333 said:

Huge assumption on this seasons 'goal'. Mowbray has said a couple of times that he has had to dampen down the owners expectations. He first said it in the summer. He talked of the need to 'educate' them about a 'slow build'. He never reported back on the outcome of those discussions. Unless you were there how can you know survival was the only target? 

So, probably not as simple as you think.

Yep correct unless we were all privy to these target discussions we ll never know! We cant assume either way .

For all we know Venkys expectations may have been lets have a top ten finish whilst Mowbray was quietly thinking er hang on lets stop up first after our last foray in this league !

Or..Venkys being Venkys it may have been  win us the Champions League  Tony ..

BTW ..anyone else forget to turn their alarm off for work ..?

Edited April 19, 2019 by HowieFive0

[JacknOry]

If there was ever any chance of Reed coming back - there isn't now.

Don't know why he had to put the boot in on him when the likes of Smallwood, Evans, Mulgrew and Bennett never get that treatment. Sure, he might have had a few games where he wasn't at his best but they were far fewer than those of the above. Even when he wasn't at his best he was still better than most on the pitch and most of the time he was played out of position. 

Watch him get snapped up by a promotion hopeful next season and flourish. 

[arbitro]

16 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

If there was ever any chance of Reed coming back - there isn't now.

Don't know why he had to put the boot in on him when the likes of Smallwood, Evans, Mulgrew and Bennett never get that treatment. Sure, he might have had a few games where he wasn't at his best but they were far fewer than those of the above. Even when he wasn't at his best he was still better than most on the pitch and most of the time he was played out of position. 

Watch him get snapped up by a promotion hopeful next season and flourish. 

Probably two of the stand out individual performances of the season were by Reed. I thought he was excellent at West Bromwich and at home to Derby. And who can forget his celebration in front of the Riverside when he won a tackle late in a game (possibly Leeds). I don't think he will be player of the season but you could make a strong case for him.

[JacknOry]

Just now, arbitro said:

Probably two of the stand out individual performances of the season were by Reed. I thought he was excellent at West Bromwich and at home to Derby. And who can forget his celebration in front of the Riverside when he won a tackle late in a game (possibly Leeds). I don't think he will be player of the season but you could make a strong case for him.

Between DG and him for me with DG being my choice for POTS but mainly because Reed has been played out of position most of the time while DG has always played in his preferred position and been consistent there. 

[Mattyblue]

That ‘slow down’ comment was either the most naive comment I’ve ever heard or he really is as good as bomb proof.

The Championship is the most trigger happy league in football for managers. Most managers at this level would jump at the chance for the biggest budget possible because they could well be sacked by October.

 

[Stuart]

Just now, JacknOry said:

Between DG and him for me with DG being my choice for POTS but mainly because Reed has been played out of position most of the time while DG has always played in his preferred position and been consistent there. 

Strange that, eh?

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

6 hours ago, XLM said:

This can be put very simply. The owners set out goals for the season after a discussion about what can be achieved with the finances available. That's how it works. This season the goal will have been survival, last season the goal was promotion. Mowbray has achieved both of those goals in his only full seasons at the club, fairly comfortably too it must be said.

Judge all you like on the relatively minute detail. It's pointless in this context. The choices he has made have achieved what has been asked of him, so he's earnt the right to continue. If he had a different remit, he may have made different choices. Who the hell knows... Fail to reach the goal next season (or not look like achieving it halfway through) and it's a different story.

If you don't agree with the goal that's set out or TM isn't financed properly, place the blame above Mowbray's head. If the goal isn't met due to tactics, motivation, coaching, whatever else, place the blame on his.

Fair post. From TM's recent musings, it would seem that 60pts was the target.  He has a fighting chance of achieving that (especially if he gets a result today). 

This summer defines TM and Waggot to some extent.  Without some solid first team signings materialising they will struggle to shift season tickets based on this year's performances (at last year's or above) prices.

[Stuart]

6 hours ago, XLM said:

This can be put very simply. The owners set out goals for the season after a discussion about what can be achieved with the finances available. That's how it works. This season the goal will have been survival, last season the goal was promotion. Mowbray has achieved both of those goals in his only full seasons at the club, fairly comfortably too it must be said.

Judge all you like on the relatively minute detail. It's pointless in this context. The choices he has made have achieved what has been asked of him, so he's earnt the right to continue. If he had a different remit, he may have made different choices. Who the hell knows... Fail to reach the goal next season (or not look like achieving it halfway through) and it's a different story.

If you don't agree with the goal that's set out or TM isn't financed properly, place the blame above Mowbray's head. If the goal isn't met due to tactics, motivation, coaching, whatever else, place the blame on his.

Your post makes a bold assumption that Venkys have interest in Rovers and want certain things to happen - let’s add in the further assumption that it isn’t because of a love for the club but to protect their investment, and ultimately promotion and money.

I imagine then that Venkys would be less than thrilled that, when within three points of the play-offs (and lots of cash) and with a cheque book being flashed at him, he decided as you suggest: ‘actually, all that Madame has asked is for survival so I won’t bother trying any harder or putting myself under any further pressure, I can go back to India in the Summer and tell them I’ve succeeded rather than raise expectations and fail’.

For them to accept that then it assumes they don’t know what is going on and aren’t really involved in the running of the club, preferring to leave everything to Steve and Tony to get on with things. Which is contrary your point.

I feel that the explanation is even simpler. We have owners who don’t care and a manager with very limited ambitions. Fortunately, last season the players were superior and their ambitions were higher, and Tony left the senior players to get on with it. Right up until the Charlton game when he stepped in to avoid raising expectations - as you say once he had reached ‘the target’ (promotion).

So you maybe have a point but I’d be more inclined to believe that Mowbray was setting his own targets rather than being given them by Venkys - or even his old Coventry mate Waggott.

Anyway, back to the minutiae...

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

7 hours ago, XLM said:

This can be put very simply. The owners set out goals for the season after a discussion about what can be achieved with the finances available. That's how it works. This season the goal will have been survival, last season the goal was promotion. Mowbray has achieved both of those goals in his only full seasons at the club, fairly comfortably too it must be said.

Judge all you like on the relatively minute detail. It's pointless in this context. The choices he has made have achieved what has been asked of him, so he's earnt the right to continue. If he had a different remit, he may have made different choices. Who the hell knows... Fail to reach the goal next season (or not look like achieving it halfway through) and it's a different story.

If you don't agree with the goal that's set out or TM isn't financed properly, place the blame above Mowbray's head. If the goal isn't met due to tactics, motivation, coaching, whatever else, place the blame on his.

I found out a long while ago that attention to the " minute details " is the difference between success and failure in any walk of life