Mowbray: Stay or go?

[JacknOry]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

They've been up against Luton who are having a tremendous season and Barnsley who've been going well from the start. Last season Shrewsbury were our " Luton " and Wigan were our " Barnsley ". Luckily for us the wheels fell off at just the right time at Shrewsbury. 

Luton had that 'bounce' from being promoted the season before which seems to have lasted. Very good achievement from them tbh. 

Their fortunes are the opposite to Sunderlands.

Edited April 24, 2019 by JacknOry

[JBiz]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

They've been up against Luton who are having a tremendous season and Barnsley who've been going well from the start. Last season Shrewsbury were our " Luton " and Wigan were our " Barnsley ". Luckily for us the wheels fell off at just the right time at Shrewsbury. 

“Lucky for us” 46 games 96 points 

Sunderland 43 games 84 points

Even Luton need to win there remaining two games to better our season. Wigan got 98.

Last year was the expectation, but don’t let anyone fool you into thinking it’s easy. We should be proud of the achievement;

 

 

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Biz said:

“Lucky for us” 46 games 96 points 

Sunderland 43 games 84 points

Even Luton need to win there remaining two games to better our season. Wigan got 98.

Last year was the expectation, but don’t let anyone fool you into thinking it’s easy. We should be proud of the achievement;

 

 

 

Exactly. It wasn't and isn't easy. I hate when people say we got promoted because "shrewsbury collapsed". They might have had a stutter near the end, but our points total would have been enough to get promoted pretty much any season you pick out.  

[roversfan99]

10 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

All about perception. They had a dodgy start but came on strong = a great season.

We started well and faded away = fail

In actual fact we’ve done well. As have Preston on a very similar budget.

You keep saying people are thinking Preston have had a "great season" but as @Exiled in Toronto pointed out to you they finished 7th last season. They havent had a great season this year.

Also, theres no way that we have similar resources. Preston broke their transfer record in January for Potts from Barnsley if im not mistaken for the first time since signing David Healy. Less than what we paid for Armstrong who they were priced out of signing. They havent had 10m to spend, plus Waggott has stated this season that our wage budget is very competitive whereas Preston are reknown for having a small budget.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, tomphil said:

Interesting he finally accepts this I was thinking about recently and at the beginning of the season especially away there did seem to be a shift to a quick counter attacking style with the ball on the deck more and it caught a lot of teams out.  Don't think TM was comfortable with the fast starts and racing into leads only to keep getting pegged back and nearly throw it away again so quite simply he reverted to type until the inclusion of Travis shook things up again,

Then of course he reverted to type again but take away the option of two defensive mids being his preferred choice and we'll then and only then really move away from that style permanently in my opinion. Sit back pass it around the back, try and draw the oppo out a bit and hoof it over the top for the knockdowns - rinse and repeat.

If he continues with that he needs another good target man and to mix Dack up with Rothwell or another to keep it fresh one of the most bonkers things this season which has gone under the radar a bit now was him keep moving Dack into DGs position when he went off.  How many times did that back fire this season ?  Quite a few i'd say.

I think that's defo his preferred 'style', certainly the passing it around and trying to draw out the opposition. He even said that was his tactic against Bolton! As has been said many times, he's a counter-attacking coach these days. When he says we like to go out and get on the 'front foot' he's simply not being honest (3 goals from open play all season at home in the 1st half. Come on Tony!!). The 1st 15 minutes against Bolton we invited them on, like we do all teams. That's his tactic when teams defend. 

That's the stuff that irks me about him, there's a lot of flim-flam with Tony. 

He used to trot out the 'front foot' stuff last season too when we had Whitto strolling around the centre circle and rolling the ball out to the wings in slow motion. Everyone could see it wasn't really working but it took him until Oldham away (October?) to rip up his plans and revert to what he called a 'hard running style' which straight away started getting results and propelled us towards the Top 2.  

Against the better footballing teams at home we've looked very good at times. Leeds, Hull, WBA and Brentford have all been out-run and out-battled at Ewood. We have struggled against the bigger teams who come to defend because we don't create much. Even against Bolton we didn't have a lot of clear chances. 

The problem away from home has come because you can't counter-attack when your defence is shite. You simply can't invite teams on to you if you can't defend. 

A better defender or two and GK and we will be better away from home next season. A quality winger and midfield playmaker and we'll probably be better at home too. 

The good thing is there's room for a lot of improvement if he can identify the right players. 

 

 

 

[SBlue]

Not a fan of poo-pooing last season.

A year ago today - a fantastic night

[philipl]

26 minutes ago, Biz said:

“Lucky for us” 46 games 96 points 

Sunderland 43 games 84 points

Even Luton need to win there remaining two games to better our season. Wigan got 98.

Last year was the expectation, but don’t let anyone fool you into thinking it’s easy. We should be proud of the achievement;

 

 

 

Luton are being diminished by having only just come up but they have some good players and pace throughout the front line. If they keep them and strengthen judiciously, no reason for not finishing top half of the Championship.

For what it is worth, Rovers' 96 points is a record high for second place in League 1.

Average points for 1st are 93.5 and 2nd 86.7.

If you look at Gordon Lee's title winners in 1975 recasting with 3 points for a win, they would have got 82 points and that fabulous side of Howard Kendall in 1980 would have got 84 points coming second in Division 3- all 46 games.

So Mowbray last season needs to be viewed in that context.

 

But I would back both our 1975 and 1980 teams to beat last year's Rovers but that is what hindsight does for you...

  

Edited April 24, 2019 by philipl

[CD_93]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Exactly. It wasn't and isn't easy. I hate when people say we got promoted because "shrewsbury collapsed". They might have had a stutter near the end, but our points total would have been enough to get promoted pretty much any season you pick out.  

Don't know why I keep remembering Dominic Samuel celebrating, swigging champagne, saying "it's too easy." ?

Maybe for you that season, lad..

[Sparks Rover]

Shefki on talksport.  He's a manager now.

Get him in to replace Tony.....

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Exactly. It wasn't and isn't easy. I hate when people say we got promoted because "shrewsbury collapsed". They might have had a stutter near the end, but our points total would have been enough to get promoted pretty much any season you pick out.  

There's no such thing as an easy automatic promotion, but we should have finished in the top 2 last season. We achieved our target. Of course we could easily have missed that target and not got promoted, as maybe Sunderland might do if they fail to go up.

We had one of the most expensive squads that league has ever seen, had stability in personnel following relegation and didn't have any players snatched away from us. So in terms of preparation it was just about as ideal as you could ask for. For comparison's sake Sunderland have had a new manager, coaching staff, ownership and are still adjusting their squad from the one that was relegated from the Premier League.

I also think it is a much more formidable League One than last year. The emergence of Luton on the brink of back to back promotions, the improvement at Portsmouth as Jackett has built them into a promotion capable side and Charlton who have improved, along with Barnsley and Sunderland who are looking to bounce straight back. Tough.

Last season the play-offs contained Charlton, Shrewsbury, Rotherham and Scunthorpe. This time round potentially Sunderland, Portsmouth, Charlton and Peterborough/Doncaster.

[philipl]

L1 tougher this season only because half the division is driven by fear of relegation in an insane scrap at the bottom.

Having sung the praises of Luton, both Rovers and Wigan of last season were better sides than they are currently.

Mowbray's record relative to past records in L1 more than speaks for itself and should only be held as a pure + for him.

It is whether he can repeat the trick and get us promoted from the Championship which is the nub of the debate, isn't it?

[Exiled in Toronto]

37 minutes ago, JHRover said:

There's no such thing as an easy automatic promotion, but we should have finished in the top 2 last season. We achieved our target. Of course we could easily have missed that target and not got promoted, as maybe Sunderland might do if they fail to go up.

We had one of the most expensive squads that league has ever seen, had stability in personnel following relegation and didn't have any players snatched away from us. So in terms of preparation it was just about as ideal as you could ask for. For comparison's sake Sunderland have had a new manager, coaching staff, ownership and are still adjusting their squad from the one that was relegated from the Premier League.

I also think it is a much more formidable League One than last year. The emergence of Luton on the brink of back to back promotions, the improvement at Portsmouth as Jackett has built them into a promotion capable side and Charlton who have improved, along with Barnsley and Sunderland who are looking to bounce straight back. Tough.

Last season the play-offs contained Charlton, Shrewsbury, Rotherham and Scunthorpe. This time round potentially Sunderland, Portsmouth, Charlton and Peterborough/Doncaster.

That wasn’t happenstance though. Someone persuaded the owners to fund those salaries and someone persuaded current Scotland and NI internationals, along with an ex-PL striker, to stay and drop down a division with no guarantee of bouncing back when their careers might have been better served by a move. Mowbray made his own luck in this area IMO.

And for every team in Div 1 that’s stronger this year, there are the Shrewsburys and Plymouth’s who got weaker. I don’t recall too many fans quaking in their boots about having to face Luton this year had we failed to go up.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Exiled in Toronto

[JHRover]

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

That wasn’t happenstance though. Someone persuaded the owners to fund those salaries and someone persuaded current Scotland and NI internationals, along with an ex-PL striker, to stay and drop down a division within guarantee of bouncing back when their careers might have been better served by a move. Mowbray made his own luck in this area IMO.

And for every team in Div 1 that’s stronger this year, there are the Shrewsburys and Plymouth’s who got weaker. I don’t recall too many fans quaking in their boots about having to face Luton this year had we failed to go up.

I don't see why Mowbray had to persuade the owners to do anything. Surely as the ones paying the bills they decide what happens and the manager works with that? If they wanted to keep funding the salaries to try and get us straight back up that's their decision, not sure what evidence there is that Mowbray managed to persuade them to do it or that it would have been different with a different manager.

If the only reason Mulgrew, Graham and Evans stayed here was because of Mowbray's persuasion then fair enough. I don't remember any talk of those players leaving. Infact the only news we had was of Sheffield United putting in a derisory bid for Lenihan.

A bit like saying Guardiola deserves credit for persuading Sheikh Mansour to spend more money after winning the league last season

[Dreams of 1995]

12 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I don't see why Mowbray had to persuade the owners to do anything. Surely as the ones paying the bills they decide what happens and the manager works with that? If they wanted to keep funding the salaries to try and get us straight back up that's their decision, not sure what evidence there is that Mowbray managed to persuade them to do it or that it would have been different with a different manager.

If the only reason Mulgrew, Graham and Evans stayed here was because of Mowbray's persuasion then fair enough. I don't remember any talk of those players leaving. Infact the only news we had was of Sheffield United putting in a derisory bid for Lenihan.

A bit like saying Guardiola deserves credit for persuading Sheikh Mansour to spend more money after winning the league last season

There's about as much evidence of that than there is to the contrary though

[SBlue]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

We had one of the most expensive squads that league has ever seen, had stability in personnel following relegation and didn't have any players snatched away from us.

And a good manager who delivered.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Exactly. It wasn't and isn't easy. I hate when people say we got promoted because "shrewsbury collapsed". They might have had a stutter near the end, but our points total would have been enough to get promoted pretty much any season you pick out.  

All that matters is you get more points than the team in third. What other teams do in other seasons is irrelevant. I was pretty grateful that Shrewsbury ended up having too many games and faltering at the death. Let's not rewrite history.

[philipl]

41 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I don't see why Mowbray had to persuade the owners to do anything. Surely as the ones paying the bills they decide what happens and the manager works with that? If they wanted to keep funding the salaries to try and get us straight back up that's their decision, not sure what evidence there is that Mowbray managed to persuade them to do it or that it would have been different with a different manager.

If the only reason Mulgrew, Graham and Evans stayed here was because of Mowbray's persuasion then fair enough. I don't remember any talk of those players leaving. Infact the only news we had was of Sheffield United putting in a derisory bid for Lenihan.

A bit like saying Guardiola deserves credit for persuading Sheikh Mansour to spend more money after winning the league last season

Your memory is betraying you..

No senior management other than Mowbray at Ewood when we were relegated and Mowbray went to Pune on 22 May 2017.

2 lots of accountants were swarming all over Ewood while the summer transfer window was open which undoubtedly meant that no strategy was agreed until almost when the new season opened (disastrously if you recall). Other than Dack, new signings were pretty late as well.

Mowbray worked an absolute blinder in very difficult circumstances.

 

 

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

Your memory is betraying you..

No senior management other than Mowbray at Ewood when we were relegated and Mowbray went to Pune on 22 May 2017.

2 lots of accountants were swarming all over Ewood while the summer transfer window was open which undoubtedly meant that no strategy was agreed until almost when the new season opened (disastrously if you recall). Other than Dack, new signings were pretty late as well.

Mowbray worked an absolute blinder in very difficult circumstances.

 

 

I think it must be your memory that is failing you.

My memory recalls that when we were relegated at Brentford we had Paul Senior (Director of Football), Mike Cheston, Ian Sivester and Suhail Pasha all at the club in senior positions. By many accounts Pasha is the most influential man at the club as the only regular link to the owners and de facto boss. Admittedly Senior walked after relegation but the remainder of the hierarchy and coaching staff remained as it was the day Mowbray arrived. Since he arrived only Senior has departed and only his allies Waggott and Venus have arrived. Hardly a massive rebuilding job. Likewise the playing staff remained similar.

Waggott's 'new management team' which took 6 months to 'assemble' consisted of no new appointments.

I'm not sure how much you can blame accountants for not having any strategy at the club. It seems to me that there is little to no medium to long term strategy at the club, with it existing on a year by year basis with a budget laid down in May and nothing can or will happen until the next summit meeting. We've only to look at Mowbray's transfer comments this week to see he doesn't know what he's got to work with, I assume that also is the reason we can't function on a basic level of getting season tickets on sale even now with status secured. Signings are always late and I don't think that had or has anything to do with our relegation or accountants coming in. It's just the way they operate and always have done. A wall of silence from the top level down until they're ready to look at things again when they've some time in their diaries. This is the reason we're slow out of the blocks every summer and are always last to sell season tickets and conclude our transfer business.

Please don't interpret my comments as a Mowbray bashing exercise or me trying to diminish the good job he has done. I've said many times I think he's done well and deserves a lot of credit for an improvement in fortunes but lets not go over the top with things here.

In respect of the original point in my opinion League One last season was an easier division than it is this year. Nevertheless we got 96 points which is impressive and represented a job well done.

Edited April 24, 2019 by JHRover

[Dreams of 1995]

Under Coyle I swear we bought a few players within days of the market opening? Might have all been bobbins but we definitely moved quickly to get them in

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

All that matters is you get more points than the team in third. What other teams do in other seasons is irrelevant. I was pretty grateful that Shrewsbury ended up having too many games and faltering at the death. Let's not rewrite history.

Who is rewriting history? Please explain 

[JHRover]

15 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Under Coyle I swear we bought a few players within days of the market opening? Might have all been bobbins but we definitely moved quickly to get them in

They've always tended to allow a few players in for relatively low fees early on in the window. Those people tend to be loans or free agents or at most nominal amounts. They never commit to substantial deals or large fees early doors.

Last summer we had Rothwell coming in but the money only arrived later on for Armstrong and Brereton.

Back under Coyle they brought in Samuelson, Byrne and Hendrie on cheap loans and allowed the Graham deal to go through but the cash for Emnes, Gallagher, Williams and the deal for Mulgrew only came later on.

I suspect the reason for this is if there is a bit of cash left over in the budget or room on the payroll then those at Ewood have authority to do it, but expenditure above and beyond those levels requiring Venky input requires their permission, which takes time to come through.

Edited April 24, 2019 by JHRover

[philipl]

48 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I think it must be your memory that is failing you.

My memory recalls that when we were relegated at Brentford we had Paul Senior (Director of Football), Mike Cheston, Ian Sivester and Suhail Pasha all at the club in senior positions. By many accounts Pasha is the most influential man at the club as the only regular link to the owners and de facto boss. Admittedly Senior walked after relegation but the remainder of the hierarchy and coaching staff remained as it was the day Mowbray arrived. Since he arrived only Senior has departed and only his allies Waggott and Venus have arrived. Hardly a massive rebuilding job. Likewise the playing staff remained similar.

Waggott's 'new management team' which took 6 months to 'assemble' consisted of no new appointments.

I'm not sure how much you can blame accountants for not having any strategy at the club. It seems to me that there is little to no medium to long term strategy at the club, with it existing on a year by year basis with a budget laid down in May and nothing can or will happen until the next summit meeting. We've only to look at Mowbray's transfer comments this week to see he doesn't know what he's got to work with, I assume that also is the reason we can't function on a basic level of getting season tickets on sale even now with status secured. Signings are always late and I don't think that had or has anything to do with our relegation or accountants coming in. It's just the way they operate and always have done. A wall of silence from the top level down until they're ready to look at things again when they've some time in their diaries. This is the reason we're slow out of the blocks every summer and are always last to sell season tickets and conclude our transfer business.

Please don't interpret my comments as a Mowbray bashing exercise or me trying to diminish the good job he has done. I've said many times I think he's done well and deserves a lot of credit for an improvement in fortunes but lets not go over the top with things here.

In respect of the original point in my opinion League One last season was an easier division than it is this year. Nevertheless we got 96 points which is impressive and represented a job well done.

Senior left 8 May, the day we were relegated.

Cheston had been completely overruled on appointing Warnock and have we heard anything of him or Silvester? 

Accountants were external- KPMG and EY brought in to review the club after relegation and Mowbray's visit to Pune so I doubt they were in any way directly responsible persuading Dack to join or keeping the key players after the drop. 

From what I heard at the time, Mowbray played a huge part in keeping the club together when it could easily have been allowed to fall apart.

Edited April 24, 2019 by philipl

[tomphil]

41 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Under Coyle I swear we bought a few players within days of the market opening? Might have all been bobbins but we definitely moved quickly to get them in

Another man of forked tongue with influential Pune ear breathers methinks, that's worked before in getting players in-- that usually turned out to be bobbins.

[tomphil]

Just now, philipl said:

Senior left 8 May, the day we were relegated.

Cheston had been completely overruled on appointing Warnock and have we heard anything of him or Silvester? 

Accountants were external- KPMG and EY brought in to review the club after relegation and Mowbray's visit to Pune so I doubt they were in any way directly responsible persuading Dack to join or keeping the key players after the drop. 

From what I heard at the time, Mowbray played a huge part in keeping the club together when it could easily have been allowed to fall apart.

Whilst we often say promotion was expected last season I can't imagine it would've been delivered without Graham and Mulgrews contribution and even Evans second half of the season. The senior pro's he kept proved a cut above so I can imagine him being a big part in recommending they were kept and probably promising them their wages would go straight back up and he'd get them another year on top as a sweetner.

[philipl]

Just now, tomphil said:

Whilst we often say promotion was expected last season I can't imagine it would've been delivered without Graham and Mulgrews contribution and even Evans second half of the season. The senior pro's he kept proved a cut above so I can imagine him being a big part in recommending they were kept and probably promising them their wages would go straight back up and he'd get them another year on top as a sweetner.

Could be a key point in what we all have seen as excessive loyalty this season.

Listening to Mowbray's post match interview on Saturday I got a sense that certain players are not taking kindly to being dropped and he was not sympathetic.