Agenda for Supporter Consultation Evening 02/5/19

[tomphil]

Someone will probably rescue Bolton but I think there are the nearest thing to a top two division club actually going bust for a long time.  All seemed to stem from Davies having to turn the taps off almost overnight although he took most of his debt with him and obviously thought he was entrusting it to genuine people in Anderson and Holdsworth.

Maybe he was desperate to get shut or had to before it dragged him down but they were hamstrung from that moment and complexity of their finances us unreal although it probably is at a lot of clubs.  These finer details never come out though until something like this happens and it gets made public.

I'd not want to be in their position though I think there's a lot more pain to come.

[BlackburnEnd75]

17 minutes ago, JHRover said:

 

It isn't clear whether the move towards 'self sufficiency' is being driven by the owners wanting to reduce their spending or whether it is being driven by FFP requirements. Waggott very clear that the club needs to boost income and reduce reliance on Venkys, fair enough, but is that because Venkys are trying to stop pumping money in or because they have to boost income for FFP reasons? This would be the question I want answering the most.

I'm still not clear on the season ticket situation. Waggott claims he wanted them out by now and the delay has been due to 'collecting data'. On that basis I look forward to seeing some changes/imagination in the pricing and categories rather than a straightforward repeat of last season. I wouldn't be getting your hopes up!

 

[rigger]

2 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

John Murray, Chairman of Rovers Trust apparently. Glad I've cancelled my membership.

As long as it's suspend not forgive.

[rigger]

1 hour ago, MCMC1875 said:

We've also had:

- Forced movement of fans for the first time in the club's history.

- Attendance surcharge.

- Above inflation price rises.

- No initiatives, except the Stoke game, to fill 18,000 empty seats. I'm not including 'Super 6' because it appears to have little, if any, popularity.

- Continued use of category A/B/C pricing which was conceived for games against top 4 Premiership clubs. Category A for the game against relegated Bolton was a disgrace.

- Bar price rises on matchdays.

- 1875 club membership for ticket priority when season ticket holders should be priority.

 

Remember the Chelsea game

[mhead]

35 minutes ago, rigger said:

As long as it's suspend not forgive.

I did pick my words carefully(I hope)….SEEMS and SUSPEND. Miller11's summary is very accurate of the mood of the meeting.

Thought it was very funny that whenever there was a tricky question Steve W involved Tony Mowbray and he took us on an elliptical journey lasting many enjoyable minutes!! Lighten up MCMC1875,you know how we all appreciate you.

[Miller11]

After the meeting closed Mowbray chatted with a group of fans... 

Patrick Bauer was mentioned as a potential signing and Mowbray said something along the lines of “We bid for him last summer, but now he’s on a free his agent thinks he’s worth 40-50 grand a week. He’s playing in league one. We want bigger, better players to come straight into the defence”. I mentioned Jake Cooper from Millwall and Mowbray said he could be a target. He was asked about Wharton and said he is not ready for Championship football yet.

[JacknOry]

Just now, Miller11 said:

After the meeting closed Mowbray chatted with a group of fans... 

Patrick Bauer was mentioned as a potential signing and Mowbray said something along the lines of “We bid for him last summer, but now he’s on a free his agent thinks he’s worth 40-50 grand a week. He’s playing in league one. We want bigger, better players to come straight into the defence”. I mentioned Jake Cooper from Millwall and Mowbray said he could be a target. He was asked about Wharton and said he is not ready for Championship football yet.

If true then this Bauer already sounds like a bit of billy big balls. He aint even played at this level before but thinks he should be earning the bigger bucks. Saying the right things again if he is aiming for better.

[tomphil]

That was something I mentioned about Bauer last summer that it maybe better to pay a few quid for him then even though his contract was running down and get him on average championship wages. Then he signed another at Charlton so the price went up again.

A million quid for him and average wages might have been a good move there was always a danger of pricing himself out although is he really asking 50k a week or is TM being a bit cute there and diverting attention away from him because he knows we'll be in the loan market instead for anyone decent ?

[Oldgregg86]

Just now, JacknOry said:

If true then this Bauer already sounds like a bit of billy big balls. He aint even played at this level before but thinks he should be earning the bigger bucks. Saying the right things again if he is aiming for better.

Usually things like this are down to the agent and not player. It's how early negotiations start.

[Bigdoggsteel]

These "negotiations" with bloody agents are what slow everything down, for all teams. They are devious bastards. No doubt, even though we have shown the most interest and clearly Mowbray likes Bauer, his agent is still hawking him around left, right and center. They pass it off saying "its in the players interest to get the best deal" , but that is actually bullshit. The best deal for the player isn't necessarily the one where he(and of course the agent) get the most money, but you can be sure that's what agents are looking for. Another reason to look abroad, there is little value to be found in the English market. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[Miller11]

Just now, OnePhilT said:

I think Mowbray liked Bauer. Last night, and again based on @Miller11's post here, it sounds as though Mowbray now believes that Bauer won't be good enough for our target next season - whatever that may be.

That was my feeling.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Class! 

[Crimpshrine]

16 hours ago, Miller11 said:

Thanked me for challenging things and seemed genuinely interested in what would get me to break my boycott.

What did you tell him ? 

It's a question I regularly ask myself but I don't really have a full answer.

For me, there would have to be a dramatic improvement in their communication with the fans. Stop being so aloof and realise we are the lifeblood of the club. 

I would not expect them to apologise for anything but if they were more open and provided explanations for their previous actions and identified their ambitions going forward then that would be a start.  It still feels to me that they consider Rovers as a hobby they spend a bit of time and money on every now and again - as necessary. I know it's a lot of money but they seem to be able to afford it easily enough so it's not a big sacrifice.

They say they consider Rovers part of their 'family' yet they haven't paid a visit for many years. Not the way you treat something/somebody you care about.

Despite  Mowbray and Waggott informing us how dedicated the owners are, I don't see any evidence besides paying the bills.

It feels like we are just treading water while Venky's are here.  I just don't feel that sense of belonging that is so important.  

 

 

[BlackburnEnd75]

Just now, Crimpshrine said:

What did you tell him ? 

It's a question I regularly ask myself but I don't really have a full answer.

For me, there would have to be a dramatic improvement in their communication with the fans. Stop being so aloof and realise we are the lifeblood of the club. 

I would not expect them to apologise for anything but if they were more open and provided explanations for their previous actions and identified their ambitions going forward then that would be a start.  It still feels to me that they consider Rovers as a hobby they spend a bit of time and money on every now and again - as necessary. I know it's a lot of money but they seem to be able to afford it easily enough so it's not a big sacrifice.

They say they consider Rovers part of their 'family' yet they haven't paid a visit for many years. Not the way you treat something/somebody you care about.

Despite  Mowbray and Waggott informing us how dedicated the owners are, I don't see any evidence besides paying the bills.

It feels like we are just treading water while Venky's are here.  I just don't feel that sense of belonging that is so important.  

 

 

I say come back starting Saturday when tickets are cheap.

[Miller11]

Just now, Crimpshrine said:

What did you tell him ? 

It's a question I regularly ask myself but I don't really have a full answer.

For me, there would have to be a dramatic improvement in their communication with the fans. Stop being so aloof and realise we are the lifeblood of the club. 

I would not expect them to apologise for anything but if they were more open and provided explanations for their previous actions and identified their ambitions going forward then that would be a start.  It still feels to me that they consider Rovers as a hobby they spend a bit of time and money on every now and again - as necessary. I know it's a lot of money but they seem to be able to afford it easily enough so it's not a big sacrifice.

They say they consider Rovers part of their 'family' yet they haven't paid a visit for many years. Not the way you treat something/somebody you care about.

Despite  Mowbray and Waggott informing us how dedicated the owners are, I don't see any evidence besides paying the bills.

It feels like we are just treading water while Venky's are here.  I just don't feel that sense of belonging that is so important.  

 

 

Pretty much sums up my feelings, however talking with Steve Waggott was quite cathartic. I have faith he is trying to do the right thing, and will attempt to bridge the divide. Posted in more detail on the season ticket poll thread.

[JBiz]

5 hours ago, DE. said:

There is a lot of talk of forgiving Venky's and welcoming them back, which is quite frustrating to me. People talk about them funding the club like it's some kind of charitable donation. They own the club! It's their responsibility and duty to provide and care for it, that's what they signed up for when they bought the bloody thing. It's gotten to this weird point, and I don't know if it's a Stockholm Syndrome thing or what, where people genuinely seem impressed and amazed that the owners continue to fund the club rather than just abandon it. As if it would be perfectly okay for the owner of any business to just stop paying bills and employees because they don't feel like it any more. 

They've made no effort to sell and have always said publicly they have no desire to sell. We have to assume then that they still want the responsibility of owning the club and representing Blackburn - therefore paying the bills is just a part of that accepted responsibility. Yes it could be worse, but how many owners in recent history have simply pulled the plug and stopped paying the bills at this level? It's pretty rare. Normally a club is sold well before it gets to that stage. 

I'm judging them more on how their decision making affects the club, and it still doesn't seem to be right even after nearly a decade. We're still far too reliant on the manager wielding huge amounts of power and influence, whilst also having travelling to India to beg for money every six months. Until that system changes I do not view Venky's as sensible custodians and I do not think they've really learned anything. They just keep hiring different people in the hope it will one day click. 

Still haven’t seen anyone suggest forgiving and forgetting the cock ups? Anyone serious mind.

I think the second part about gratitude for funding being tantamount to Stockholm syndrome is unfair De! I mean, I am grateful that they continued to fund the academy because (whilst an expectation I guess) that advantage will be important if it’s used correctly. Ofcourse it’s their responsibility - however there’s cheaper ways to do it.

As for the final paragraph, I agree there are still steps to be taken on the pitch and off the pitch in terms of their impact - meetings in India, being absent from the box etc.

However spending a lot on diligence and financial auditing suggests they may have learnt something, much like hiring Waggott suggests they’ve learnt we needed more than just a secretary and finance guy.

Its still painful to accept they learnt these things the hard way, no dispute there.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Biz

[DE.]

Just now, Biz said:

Still haven’t seen anyone suggest forgiving and forgetting the cock ups? Anyone serious mind.

I think the second part about gratitude for funding being tantamount to Stockholm syndrome is unfair De! I mean, I am grateful that they continued to fund the academy because (whilst an expectation I guess) that advantage will be important if it’s used correctly. Ofcourse it’s their responsibility - however there’s cheaper ways to do it.

As for the final paragraph, I agree there are still steps to be taken on the pitch and off the pitch in terms of their impact - meetings in India, being absent from the box etc.

However spending a lot on diligence and financial auditing suggests they may have learnt something, much like hiring Waggott suggests they’ve learnt we needed more than just a secretary and finance guy.

Its still painful to accept they learnt these things the hard way, no dispute there.

To be fair mate it's more on FB/Twitter than here. Somebody started a topic in one of the Rovers groups saying it's time to get behind Venky's, forgive them, etc... over 100 likes, full of comments from people saying they were duped, learned their lessons, we're on our way back, etc... it really wound me up. The discussion on here tends to be more balanced.

[tugay5]

Anyone know if the supporters consultation evening will be aired on radio lancs ?

[Miller11]

Just now, tugay5 said:

Anyone know if the supporters consultation evening will be aired on radio lancs ?

A condensed version. Date and time yet to be confirmed

[DeeCee]

6 hours ago, DE. said:

To be fair mate it's more on FB/Twitter than here. Somebody started a topic in one of the Rovers groups saying it's time to get behind Venky's, forgive them, etc... over 100 likes, full of comments from people saying they were duped, learned their lessons, we're on our way back, etc... it really wound me up. The discussion on here tends to be more balanced.

Eternal optimism

[old darwen blue]

NEVER FORGIVE NEVER FORGET. 

In the past there have been prospective buyers of our club and there still are now. 

Oh and if you and your mate pool your cash to buy a car and down the line you want to sell it but he refuses then you won’t be able to. 

Edited May 4, 2019 by old darwen blue

[matt83]

I don’t buy this the poor old venkys were duped, learned their lessons routine. Yes there were some charlatans (Anderson/kean/shaw/Agnew/shebby/etc) taking advantage. But through it all the one group of people who unequivocally want what’s best for the club, namely us the fans, were ignored. Had they listened once from kean in 2011 to Owen coyle in 2017 2 relegations could have been prevented. They didn’t and they weren’t  

For me to even consider not hating them they need to 1 admit their mistakes and 2 apologise for their mistakes publicly. Will they-No. Do they feel they need to-probably not. The reality is who are we the peasants to our regal owners. 

The cruelest of ironies is its through their incompetence that we need their chicken money to stay afloat. The venkys can keep paying the bills but their continued absence from Ewood is a very welcome one.

[Stuart]

Just now, matt83 said:

I don’t buy this the poor old venkys were duped, learned their lessons routine. Yes there were some charlatans (Anderson/kean/shaw/Agnew/shebby/etc) taking advantage. But through it all the one group of people who unequivocally want what’s best for the club, namely us the fans, were ignored. Had they listened once from kean in 2011 to Owen coyle in 2017 2 relegations could have been prevented. They didn’t and they weren’t  

For me to even consider not hating them they need to 1 admit their mistakes and 2 apologise for their mistakes publicly. Will they-No. Do they feel they need to-probably not. The reality is who are we the peasants to our regal owners. 

The cruelest of ironies is its through their incompetence that we need their chicken money to stay afloat. The venkys can keep paying the bills but their continued absence from Ewood is a very welcome one.

Very well put. Thanks.

[arbitro]

2 minutes ago, matt83 said:

I don’t buy this the poor old venkys were duped, learned their lessons routine. Yes there were some charlatans (Anderson/kean/shaw/Agnew/shebby/etc) taking advantage. But through it all the one group of people who unequivocally want what’s best for the club, namely us the fans, were ignored. Had they listened once from kean in 2011 to Owen coyle in 2017 2 relegations could have been prevented. They didn’t and they weren’t  

For me to even consider not hating them they need to 1 admit their mistakes and 2 apologise for their mistakes publicly. Will they-No. Do they feel they need to-probably not. The reality is who are we the peasants to our regal owners. 

The cruelest of ironies is its through their incompetence that we need their chicken money to stay afloat. The venkys can keep paying the bills but their continued absence from Ewood is a very welcome one.

I'm absolutely with you on this. They sacked good honest people and let charlatans run the club. Several times.

I will never be beholden to them for the damage they have caused. I believe the damage to be irreparable.

[philipl]

21 hours ago, arbitro said:

I'm absolutely with you on this. They sacked good honest people and let charlatans run the club. Several times.

I will never be beholden to them for the damage they have caused. I believe the damage to be irreparable.

Absolutely from the point they bought (earlier if truth is ever exposed) to the appointment of Coyle.

Yes the damage is irreparable from taking us from finishing in the top half of the Premier League 80% of the time to where we are today missing out on the exceptional boom in Premier League income.

Most fans at the time of greatest damage being done were extraordinarily slow to see what was happening and to respond.

So it is re-writing history to say poor old ignored fans. Some of us saw what was happening and frankly we got as much flak from fellow-supporters as we got support from fans.

Frankly, "we were ignored" doesn't wash.

 

I hope that we are indeed seeing a change over the last two and a bit seasons and I will say it again, taking the last 30 months in isolation, Venky's are among the better owners in the FL.  In business and in life, people learn and improve. 

Not asking for forgiveness and forgetting for Venky's- their start with Rovers was beyond abysmal- but just as facing reality in 2011/12 meant talking to the Premier League, FA, Qataris, Sports Minister, MPs, journalists etc., facing reality today means recognising that what Messrs Waggott and Mowbray had to say at the Fans Forum/Liaison Meeting was reassuring and encouraging and has been evidenced by solid action and funding. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by philipl