Bolton Wanderers Unpaid Staff Need Food bank.

[jim mk2]

2 hours ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

 

We should all be shit scared of what is happening just 8 miles up the road in Horwich.

 Quite right. It could so easily have been us, and could yet be in the future. It's unthinkable that the mighty Bolton Wanderers, founder members of the Football League, one of the great historic clubs, a powerhouse in the 1950s and which enjoyed considerable success in the Premier League only a short time ago, could go out of existence. The League must not, cannot, let it happen. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by jim mk2

[47er]

1 hour ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Fuck the Rao family, they got us into this mess. 

I've always assumed they were hanging on till we got back into the Premiership and they could recoup their losses. Once they realise they are unlikely to ever achieve this, their reaction may well be to cut their losses. 

 

[philipl]

5 hours ago, Stuart said:

The silence from other clubs on the Bury and Bolton situations is deafening.

There but for the grace of God...

Rules limiting the number of clubs a player can appear with in a season have completely stymied the ability of other clubs to help.

[Paul]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

Rules limiting the number of clubs a player can appear with in a season have completely stymied the ability of other clubs to help.

I don't feel this is quite correct. A player can be registered with up to three clubs in a season but only play for two. I'm sure there would be plenty of potential loans.

I feel the issue is we are outside a transfer window?

Edited August 27, 2019 by Paul

[philipl]

3 hours ago, Paul said:

I don't feel this is quite correct. A player can be registered with up to three clubs in a season but only play for two. I'm sure there would be plenty of potential loans.

I feel the issue is we are outside a transfer window?

League 1 clubs are still within a window. Suppose Rovers loaned players to Bury and Bolton and they played for them and the clubs collapse. Those players are pretty well stuck for what they can do in the remainder of the season. Rovers could not recall them from a replacement loan to cover a crisis at Ewood.

[Mattyblue]

Thought they weren’t allowed to register any more players? 

Their centre half Hobbs re-signed a few weeks ago but the EFL won’t register him.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/17822667.amp/

 

[philipl]

Deadline day.

Killer issues

- Bury has that horrific mortgage over Gigg Lane. Nobody will touch that.

- Bolton has the problem of having an associated asset of value in the hotel which in these circumstances is a horrible complicating factor for getting a deal done for a football club. Plus the scrap between the Davies Estate and Ken Anderson over a £7 million debt is another massive complication. An incoming owner has to decide whether certain relegation this season (and all the supporter animosity that comes with that) and a few million wasted on legacy issues is less attractive than picking up the pieces from a liquidation and starting afresh in National League North next season. I suspect the latter is more appealing as there is zero legacy and they would be building their cost base under their own control from zero rather than inheriting God knows what.

As you can tell, I will be surprised if either club is still with us by the end of September.

So I repeat, what are Rovers doing to expand our supporter base into the resulting voids?

[JHRover]

Just now, philipl said:

Deadline day.

Killer issues

- Bury has that horrific mortgage over Gigg Lane. Nobody will touch that.

- Bolton has the problem of having an associated asset of value in the hotel which in these circumstances is a horrible complicating factor for getting a deal done for a football club. Plus the scrap between the Davies Estate and Ken Anderson over a £7 million debt is another massive complication. An incoming owner has to decide whether certain relegation this season (and all the supporter animosity that comes with that) and a few million wasted on legacy issues is less attractive than picking up the pieces from a liquidation and starting afresh in National League North next season. I suspect the latter is more appealing as there is zero legacy and they would be building their cost base under their own control from zero rather than inheriting God knows what.

As you can tell, I will be surprised if either club is still with us by the end of September.

So I repeat, what are Rovers doing to expand our supporter base into the resulting voids?

Why would Bolton be allowed to join the National League North next season? If they are kicked out then they should start at the very bottom like Stanley and Wimbledon had to do. Why should clubs fighting for promotion to the National League North be deprived of a chance of promotion?

[Paul]

10 minutes ago, philipl said:

League 1 clubs are still within a window. Suppose Rovers loaned players to Bury and Bolton and they played for them and the clubs collapse. Those players are pretty well stuck for what they can do in the remainder of the season. Rovers could not recall them from a replacement loan to cover a crisis at Ewood.

I'm not sure I follow this Philip. I presume when a player is loaned out his parent club retains his registration? If Bolton or Bury were to collapse loans would return to their parent clubs and employed professionals would become free agents as their club no longer exists. There could be a question re registration of those players but I'd have thought even the EFL could sort that one!

Where there would be an impact is if Rovers loaned to Bury who collapse after he's played for them. It would then be risky loan that player elsewhere as doing so would prevent him playing for Rovers.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Paul

[philipl]

Just now, Paul said:

I'm not sure I follow this Philip. I presume when a player is loaned out his parent club retains his registration? If Bolton or Bury were to collapse loans would return to their parents club and employed professionals would become free agents as their club no longer exists. There could be a question re registration of those players but I'd have thought even the EFL could sort that one!

Where there would be an impact is if Rovers loaned to Bury who collapse after he's played for them. It would then be risky loan that player elsewhere as doing so would prevent him playing for Rovers.

If they play for either club, and they'd played for Rovers, they could not be loaned out again this season.

If they hadn't already played professionally for Rovers they would face the choice of either Rovers or another loan but could not do both. 

All academic now anyway.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Just now, philipl said:

- Bury has that horrific mortgage over Gigg Lane. Nobody will touch that.

What do you mean by this Phil? Most clubs’ bankers will have taken a fixed charge over the land and buildings at and around the stadia, usually in the form of a mortgage debenture. Do you mean the amount of the mortgage in pounds, shillings and pence or are there complications with that particular mortgage?

[philipl]

Just now, JHRover said:

Why would Bolton be allowed to join the National League North next season? If they are kicked out then they should start at the very bottom like Stanley and Wimbledon had to do. Why should clubs fighting for promotion to the National League North be deprived of a chance of promotion?

I cannot find the link but I read somewhere they could apply at sixth tier level. No guarantee they would be admitted- it would be by vote of National Leagues' member clubs. Failing that, it would be at the very bottom as you say.

[philipl]

Just now, Claytons Left Boot said:

What do you mean by this Phil? Most clubs’ bankers will have taken a fixed charge over the land and buildings at and around the stadia, usually in the form of a mortgage debenture. Do you mean the amount of the mortgage in pounds, shillings and pence or are there complications with that particular mortgage?

See the David Conn article I posted on page 19 of this thread.

Bury are not in administration but in Creditors' Voluntary Arrangement which makes unhooking that mortgage with an effective interest rate of 138% a killer.

[MarkBRFC]

45 minutes ago, philipl said:

League 1 clubs are still within a window. Suppose Rovers loaned players to Bury and Bolton and they played for them and the clubs collapse. Those players are pretty well stuck for what they can do in the remainder of the season. Rovers could not recall them from a replacement loan to cover a crisis at Ewood.

Not necessarily, clauses can be put in all loan contracts.

Andy Fisher for example, has a call back clause in after one month just in case something happens to either of our goalkeepers.

I also think they could be recalled from there loan, and sent elsewhere. Just like Kasey Palmer last season, and Jack Payne the year before.

Edited August 27, 2019 by MarkBRFC

[Mattyblue]

Since the opening day Bolton haven’t been allowed to register players, so no other clubs can ‘help’.

[Claytons Left Boot]

4 minutes ago, philipl said:

See the David Conn article I posted on page 19 of this thread.

Bury are not in administration but in Creditors' Voluntary Arrangement which makes unhooking that mortgage with an effective interest rate of 138% a killer.

Thanks for that. I sort of proof read the David Conn article previously but have now read it in more detail. Yes, the interest rates etc are staggering. Makes Leeds’ horrendous borrowings of two decades ago seem simplistic in comparison! Both Day and Dale should be running some dodgy, back street second hand car business. That’s about their limit.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I am led to believe this Dale chancer has a record of Bankruptcy and Liquidation,the trail is long.

Fit and proper?....yeah rightyo!!! 

Edited August 27, 2019 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[arbitro]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/11/bury-takeover-without-full-football-league-approval-transfer-embargo-efl

I have posted this before but David Conn reports that Dale wasn't even subjected to take the fit and proper persons test.

If it's true the EFL have major questions to answer. Lots of fingers are being pointed at Shaun Harvey who was the EGO Chief Exec at the time. He also allegedly turned a blind eye to Anderson's wrongdoings at Bolton.

[philipl]

Appears another bidder with proof of £33m has come in for Bolton.

With two bidding the future for Bolton looks a lot brighter.

Bury on the other hand...

[Claytons Left Boot]

The fit and proper test is all well and good (if implemented) but isn’t fool proof. Take the Leeds example from 20 years ago. There wasn’t a fit and proper test then because it was introduced in 2004. Ridsdale was a relatively successful local businessman and Leeds supporter, if I remember correctly and, safe to say, he and his fellow directors would have passed any test. They were a Premier League club, rolling along nicely and had won the old First Division in 1992. 

Fast forward to 1999 and they then get delusions of grandeur and start on a borrowing campaign, away from the mainstream banks, to attempt to bring them further success. Interest rates, dodgy types of borrowing (see my previous post) finally bring them to their knees, they suffer relegation and have the ownership of Elland Road transferred to the local council before being leased back to the club.

In situations like this and, in any other form of business away from football, you wouldn’t expect a third party organisation (in this case the PL) to continually have to monitor how a club is being run and in particular keep looking at its level of debt. In the majority of cases, football clubs are being run by honest, hard working, respectable enough individuals and you have just got to let them get on with it. As we all know though, at the top end, where the real money is made, there are always unscrupulous individuals wanting to take advantage and get their snouts in the trough and they’ll attempt to get there by any means they can.

[lraC]

47 minutes ago, arbitro said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/11/bury-takeover-without-full-football-league-approval-transfer-embargo-efl

I have posted this before but David Conn reports that Dale wasn't even subjected to take the fit and proper persons test.

If it's true the EFL have major questions to answer. Lots of fingers are being pointed at Shaun Harvey who was the EGO Chief Exec at the time. He also allegedly turned a blind eye to Anderson's wrongdoings at Bolton.

It appears that Anderson and Shaun Harvey are good mates allegedly. When you are good mates with someone that senior at the EFL who happens to know, he will be gone before too long, perhaps the good of the club was the furthest thing from his thoughts?

[DE.]

15 minutes ago, philipl said:

Appears another bidder with proof of £33m has come in for Bolton.

With two bidding the future for Bolton looks a lot brighter.

Bury on the other hand...

FV have been kicking the tyre down the road for so long now that I really question their authenticity. Anderson is obviously a pain to deal with but it's been literally months now. A new bidder coming in at the 11th hour is always questionable as well imo, why not sooner? And how long is it going to take to go through the process of due diligence? Or is this new bidder coming in at the last minute hoping all due diligence and fit & proper tests will be fast-tracked through with less detail so that they can sneak in with less than solid credentials...

I expect by 5pm today Bolton will have been given another extension but as a fan I'd still be very concerned for the future.

[Stuart]

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2019/august/statement-on-behalf-of-paul-appleton-joint-administrator-for-bolton-wanderers6/

I think Bolton will survive.

[JHRover]

Yeah, think the combination of the League deadline and administrator threat to liquidate the club will have got the message across to all the parties involved and they will get things sorted. 

It was always likely to take a firm deadline and some tough talk. Nobody wins in liquidation so expect compromises and extensions to avoid that outcome.

[philipl]

Just now, DE. said:

FV have been kicking the tyre down the road for so long now that I really question their authenticity. Anderson is obviously a pain to deal with but it's been literally months now. A new bidder coming in at the 11th hour is always questionable as well imo, why not sooner? And how long is it going to take to go through the process of due diligence? Or is this new bidder coming in at the last minute hoping all due diligence and fit & proper tests will be fast-tracked through with less detail so that they can sneak in with less than solid credentials...

I expect by 5pm today Bolton will have been given another extension but as a fan I'd still be very concerned for the future.

Money is money.

Why take on a £7m obligation when with extreme brinkmanship you can probably duck it?

The Administrator's announcements at the weekend were clearly dancing to the Football Ventures' tune. This latest one is much more neutral.

As for the second bidder. If they are for real, they will have done a huge amount of work thus far but again will only be showing their hand at the 59th minute of the 11th hour when all else is exhausted.