Tony Mowbray Discussion

[arbitro]

I heard on QUEST today that we have never lost a Tuesday night game under Mowbray at Ewood. So the next night match at Ewood is against Stoke on a Wednesday to pander to the red button whim.

[tomphil]

26 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

An interesting post as an indication that even the Mowbray Out brigade maybe now realise that the process of appointing a successor will probably not be as straightforward as they assumed. Who is Bruno Ribeiro's agent ?

On a more general note you rightly point out how close involvement of an agency with a club creates a conflict of interest. The Times last week carried an article regarding the situation at Wolves where the manager and 10 of the first team squad have the same Portuguese agent in Mendes - indeed Matt Doherty recently switched his agent to Mendes. The outstanding success that Wolves have had on the pitch in the last three has helped to quieten concerns but as the article pointed out - what happens if the day dawns when his interests and those of Wolves no longer coincide ?

Its worked at Wolves in a way it was never going to work here but you can bet that's the idea that was sold.

Can only assume that Mendes and co are far better connected and know a lot more about football than the absolute scum that got a foot in the door here. This kind of thing won't go away though with foreign ownership models and when they see one that works it'll only encourage more,

Why associates of those people still recruit managers etc here is very odd and very very suspicious still. Might not be so bad if they had decent clients on their books but they seem to be the bargain bin mob.

Root cause though is the ownership who seem to get off on this and of course that fella that hides in the middle who also has the old connections. 

[Leonard Venkhater]

5 hours ago, tomphil said:

This has been hinted at for quite some time.

Payoffs are something that has been regular under Venkys ownership. If you were advising that's what you'd be angling for knowing how they operate here.

Smallwood must be on a very nice contract to be happy to sit it out so long. During what are probably his peak years as a footballer.

Not healthy at all these connections but the SEM path keeps getting thrown a bone for some reason.

I am sure the agents get a slice of any payoff, as they do with a signing on fee-maybe even salary.

There are many who believe that there was a period in this nightmare, when agents were actually joint owners. That would mean that a good proportion of apparent losses  went into the pockets of "owners".

[Leonard Venkhater]

3 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

An interesting post as an indication that even the Mowbray Out brigade maybe now realise that the process of appointing a successor will probably not be as straightforward as they assumed. Who is Bruno Ribeiro's agent ?

On a more general note you rightly point out how close involvement of an agency with a club creates a conflict of interest. The Times last week carried an article regarding the situation at Wolves where the manager and 10 of the first team squad have the same Portuguese agent in Mendes - indeed Matt Doherty recently switched his agent to Mendes. The outstanding success that Wolves have had on the pitch in the last three has helped to quieten concerns but as the article pointed out - what happens if the day dawns when his interests and those of Wolves no longer coincide ?

Absolutely.

Another issue arises when the same agency has significant "interest" in more than one club. There was certainly a big SEM influence at Bolton.

I remember one journalist asking about the implications of two "SEM" clubs playing each other at the business end of the season, with one of them in the drop zone.

The same article cited Pulis at Stoke, Coyle at Bolton and Kean at Rovers.

Also, I think I am right that the mysterious Suhail-or someone with the same name-appeared on Linkedin, as an employee of SEM...

[Leonard Venkhater]

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Leonard Venkhater

[RevidgeBlue]

3 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

An interesting post as an indication that even the Mowbray Out brigade maybe now realise that the process of appointing a successor will probably not be as straightforward as they assumed. Who is Bruno Ribeiro's agent ?

On a more general note you rightly point out how close involvement of an agency with a club creates a conflict of interest. The Times last week carried an article regarding the situation at Wolves where the manager and 10 of the first team squad have the same Portuguese agent in Mendes - indeed Matt Doherty recently switched his agent to Mendes. The outstanding success that Wolves have had on the pitch in the last three years has helped to quieten concerns but as the article pointed out - what happens if the day dawns when his interests and those of Wolves no longer coincide ?

I still don't believe that if Mowbray (or any other manager for that matter) definitely isn't working then the fact a worse replacement might be found is a valid reason for keeping him. I realise we differ on whether he's "working".

As regards HSH/SEM etc etc I really don't believe things have ever been done that much differently in modern times, I can't see that using them is that much different to getting shafted up Hill and down dale on a regular basis by Souness's favourite agent Willie McKay for example.

It was just the conflict of interest thing that intrigued me. I suppose there must be lots of examples where agents act for both a player and manager at the same Club. Possibly not a problem normally but where a potential conflict of interest does arise occasionally you'd like to think they'd cease to act for one party or the other.

Bet they don't though.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Absolutely.

Another issue arises when the same agency has significant "interest" in more than one club. There was certainly a big SEM influence at Bolton.

I remember one journalist asking about the implications of two "SEM" clubs playing each other at the business end of the season, with one of them in the drop zone.

The same article cited Pulis at Stoke, Coyle at Bolton and Kean at Rovers.

Also, I think I am right that the mysterious Suhail-or someone with the same name-appeared on Linkedin, as an employee of SEM...

Venkys - Shadowman - Former SEM 'satellite' mob  ----- New Blackburn manager

I think that's how it works so Steve would have to get used to that if the situation arose, then again he probably has a direct line in there as well !

[Dreams of 1995]

All of the above is modern football in a nutshell. For such a global sport it is a very close circle, each infesting different parts. The truth is what happened to us was sin, we got on the wrong side of a deal that has been done many times before and many times since. When an agency gets so involved in a football club there will only be one winner in the end. In the case of Wolves both sides are winning, right now, but that could change at the drop of a hat if Mendes isn't placated.

Unfortunately for us our agent(s) are bad. They don't have the talent pool and in our early days were interested in lining their pockets only. Now you get an idea the right kind of people are at the club but there's still that potential for the 'odd' signing that raises a few eyebrows. A horrible symptom of a sport gone bad.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Dreams of 1995

[Exiled in Toronto]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

All of the above is modern football in a nutshell. For such a global sport it is a very close circle, each infesting different parts. The truth is what happened to us was sin, we got on the wrong side of a deal that has been done many times before and many times since. When an agency gets so involved in a football club there will only be one winner in the end. In the case of Wolves both sides are winning, right now, but that could change at the drop of a hat if Mendes isn't placated.

Unfortunately for us our agent(s) are bad. They don't have the talent pool and in our early days were interested in lining their pockets only. Now you get an idea the right kind of people are at the club but there's still that potential for the 'odd' signing that raises a few eyebrows. A horrible symptom of a sport gone bad.

It’s a very small, incestuous circle so I’m not surprised there are ex-SEM people knocking about. The most thought-provoking fact for me is that Coyle and Mowbray, both left-field appointments to say the least for a Championship team, came from the same stable. 

[tomphil]

Things change but Lambert at the time wasn't seen as such a desperado as the other two his stock was a bit higher. He came and had a look, sought certain assurances that weren't met so moved the goalposts himself by probably being unrealistic.  That in turn gave him the excuse to exert his get out clause.

If he himself was represented by the same lot as has been said then not sure i'd have been that keen to see him handed 20 million to spend. Same old parasites in the background pushing their clients first to get another slice of the action.

Why you'd go anywhere near anyone who was directly connected to Andersons lot i don't know. Why you'd even answer the phone to them after Owen Coyle is beyond conspiracy.

[Ewood Ace]

37 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Things change but Lambert at the time wasn't seen as such a desperado as the other two his stock was a bit higher. He came and had a look, sought certain assurances that weren't met so moved the goalposts himself by probably being unrealistic.  That in turn gave him the excuse to exert his get out clause.

Lambert is the only manager the owners have appointed who had a CV worthy of the job. Under decent owners none of the others would have even warranted an interview.

[tomphil]

3 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Lambert is the only manager the owners have appointed who had a CV worthy of the job. Under decent owners none of the others would have even warranted an interview.

But they quickly went back on the things they'd promised to get him here by the sounds of it.

[Ewood Ace]

7 minutes ago, tomphil said:

But they quickly went back on the things they'd promised to get him here by the sounds of it.

I think ever since he got sacked by Villa he has had a massive chip on his shoulder. I was very excited when we appointed him but within a couple months that soon changed as he seemed more interested in moaning about his time at Villa than he was about Rovers.

[tomphil]

4 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I think ever since he got sacked by Villa he has had a massive chip on his shoulder. I was very excited when we appointed him but within a couple months that soon changed as he seemed more interested in moaning about his time at Villa than he was about Rovers.

I had high hopes i thought we had a proper manager at last but it wasn't to be. Not sure how it would have panned out if he'd stayed although i don't think for a min we'd have gone down.  Given a few quid he might have made some decent signings but the football would never have been pretty i don't think.

Who cares though if it's effective.

On the Villa moaning he still does it apparently.

[Paul Mani]

I don’t understand why there are people who cannot understand why fans may want to hang onto Mowbray in fear of the alternatives....anyone who has followed our club for the last decade should see how terrible the club has been at appointing good managers. Even Mowbray, who has been a relative success, should not have got the job when he did. It’s pure luck that that one worked out.

Which brings me back to the point that most fans make which is that they don’t believe for one second that TM is doing a bad job. Of course there’s some of us who think we may need a better manager med/long term in order to achieve our goals but the utter dread of what could turn up at the club after him is REAL!

Im as far from risk averse as anyone out there but my god, I’ll take Mowbray for as long as it takes to say 100% he cannot take us any further. Because history tells me that the next manager of Venkys reign is likely to be more Coyle or Kean than, errrrm well Tony Mowbray.

[Ewood Ace]

7 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I don’t understand why there are people who cannot understand why fans may want to hang onto Mowbray in fear of the alternatives....anyone who has followed our club for the last decade should see how terrible the club has been at appointing good managers. Even Mowbray, who has been a relative success, should not have got the job when he did. It’s pure luck that that one worked out.

Would you give him a contract for life?

[Stuart]

18 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

All of the above is modern football in a nutshell. For such a global sport it is a very close circle, each infesting different parts. The truth is what happened to us was sin, we got on the wrong side of a deal that has been done many times before and many times since. When an agency gets so involved in a football club there will only be one winner in the end. In the case of Wolves both sides are winning, right now, but that could change at the drop of a hat if Mendes isn't placated.

Unfortunately for us our agent(s) are bad. They don't have the talent pool and in our early days were interested in lining their pockets only. Now you get an idea the right kind of people are at the club but there's still that potential for the 'odd' signing that raises a few eyebrows. A horrible symptom of a sport gone bad.

Football agents are a curse. A better PFA wouldn’t have seen the need for these parasites to get involved in the first place. They are not protecting their clients interests, they protect their own. What we have now is de facto third party ownership that cannot be controlled let alone eliminated.

The Walker Trust / Rothschild picked the worst of the worst and our our ‘natural position’, midtable top flight team, was gone, while millions and millions of pounds went out of the club and out of football.

[MarkBRFC]

20 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I don’t understand why there are people who cannot understand why fans may want to hang onto Mowbray in fear of the alternatives....anyone who has followed our club for the last decade should see how terrible the club has been at appointing good managers. Even Mowbray, who has been a relative success, should not have got the job when he did. It’s pure luck that that one worked out.

Which brings me back to the point that most fans make which is that they don’t believe for one second that TM is doing a bad job. Of course there’s some of us who think we may need a better manager med/long term in order to achieve our goals but the utter dread of what could turn up at the club after him is REAL!

Im as far from risk averse as anyone out there but my god, I’ll take Mowbray for as long as it takes to say 100% he cannot take us any further. Because history tells me that the next manager of Venkys reign is likely to be more Coyle or Kean than, errrrm well Tony Mowbray.

I certainly understand the point given our owners track record, but it doesn't mean we should cling on to him until he doesn't fancy it anymore.

I think he's done ok, and achieved what I would probably expect results wise so far during his time here despite some horrendous runs and baffling team selections, It sounds harsh considering what went on before him, but I do think he should have kept us up in his first few months though.

But I honestly think, If Tony Mowbray is the glass ceiling for this club then it's probably time to pack it in.

[Paul Mani]

34 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Would you give him a contract for life?

No, I pretty much just said that:

a) I’d give him until the very point where I could no longer see him taking us on.

 b) that I believe med/long term that we may need fresh blood to get us to our goals.

My point was in relation to those who, in spite of the manager doing a a decent enough job, want him simply removed and then cannot understand why some are worried at what we might get next? 

 

[Paul Mani]

20 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

I certainly understand the point given our owners track record, but it doesn't mean we should cling on to him until he doesn't fancy it anymore.

I think he's done ok, and achieved what I would probably expect results wise so far during his time here despite some horrendous runs and baffling team selections, It sounds harsh considering what went on before him, but I do think he should have kept us up in his first few months though.

But I honestly think, If Tony Mowbray is the glass ceiling for this club then it's probably time to pack it in.

I wouldn’t disagree with much of that, though I do think you may have omitted the job he’s done of turning a pretty poisonous club into one which is now at least pointing in the right direction? Maybe some credit for the introduction of youth? I also think the criticism of him taking us down is harsh considering he took over from Coyle and a total mess and went at top 6 form to go down on the highest Points total in history.

Im not saying that we shouldn’t eventually replace him when he stops progressing. But if we do, indeed finish in or just outside the top 6 especially with the injuries we’ve endured then surely even the die hard ‘Mowbray out’ brigade can accept that there has been progress?

What I’m saying is that as a fan, whilst we are making some forward progress then I’m happy to stick rather than twist and risk Sol Campbell turning up next! 

[47er]

7 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Im not saying that we shouldn’t eventually replace him when he stops progressing.

Dear me, don't go revolutionary on us will you? At what point in his glacial progression will you give up on him?

Never I suspect----his kids will complete their university education and he'll call it a day I reckon.

Then we'll still have to fret over Venkys getting it wrong again anyway!

 

[jim mk2]

22 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I

Im not saying that we shouldn’t eventually replace him when he stops progressing. But if we do, indeed finish in or just outside the top 6 especially with the injuries we’ve endured then surely even the die hard ‘Mowbray out’ brigade can accept that there has been progress?

 No, because I don;t see any "progress" this season and it won't be any different next season, or the season after.  I'm comforted by the fact Tony's pension fund is running into the millions now - he'll walk away soon enough. 

 

[Paul Mani]

6 minutes ago, 47er said:

Dear me, don't go revolutionary on us will you? At what point in his glacial progression will you give up on him?

Never I suspect----his kids will complete their university education and he'll call it a day I reckon.

Then we'll still have to fret over Venkys getting it wrong again anyway!

 

I’ll probably (like most sensible people) ‘give up’ on Mowbray when he stops finishing a bit higher in the league? Makes sense right? Considering it’s a ‘results’ business. ?

I think you’re REALLY struggling to tell anyone that there’s been no progression since he took over from Coyle. Sure everyone has opinions for and against but the stats pretty much do the job.

Im also very sure that the vast majority of people (fans and neutrals) would say we had progressed during that time too.

Im not saying you cannot have your personal opinion. That’s up to you. I was just addressing this recurring narrative where people (such as yourself) are absolutely aghast that other fans wouldn’t want to replace him immediately. 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

 No, because I don;t see any "progress" this season and it won't be any different next season, or the season after.  I'm comforted by the fact Tony's pension fund is running into the millions now - he'll walk away soon enough. 

 

And that’s absolutely fine mate. You don’t see it, many do.

Think I saw a stat saying we currently have the most points we’ve ever had at this point of a championship season? So, erm yeah ok ??

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

17 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

Lambert is the only manager the owners have appointed who had a CV worthy of the job. Under decent owners none of the others would have even warranted an interview.

Don't forget he brought Andy Irvine and Rob Kelly in also. I thought that appointment was the only logical thing the Chicken Chokers have done in 10 years.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Tyrone Shoelaces