Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Mattyblue]

No I said he’s had a more stable club to operate in, which those first months aside, he has.

[47er]

Bowyer didn't waste £12M on 2 players.

[roverandout]

If he gets rovers promoted,  I would seriously consider binning him and bringing in a proven manager. It worked for Southampton when they got rid of Adkins for pocettino.  No good going up and struggling like villa have done

Edited February 23, 2020 by roverandout

[islander200]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

Bowyer didn't waste £12M on 2 players.

Can't argue it looks 12 million wasted but flip it round he bought Dack for 750k who we rejected a 15 million bid for in January 2019 and Armstrong for 1.75 million and if he keeps up his current form we could be looking at at least 10 million if we were open to selling 

[Bbrovers2288]

For the first time in mowbrays tenure I actually seen some sort of style on Saturday, I mean it was a give up possession and hit on the break kind of style which goes against his supposed keep ball good football style everyone seems to suggest he brings but a style and method all the same. 

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

For the first time in mowbrays tenure I actually seen some sort of style on Saturday, I mean it was a give up possession and hit on the break kind of style which goes against his supposed keep ball good football style everyone seems to suggest he brings but a style and method all the same. 

Brentford are always to have more of the possession at home so playing on the counter makes sense. 

Expect us to have more of the possession against Stoke at Home

[Paul Mani]

9 hours ago, islander200 said:

Can't argue it looks 12 million wasted but flip it round he bought Dack for 750k who we rejected a 15 million bid for in January 2019 and Armstrong for 1.75 million and if he keeps up his current form we could be looking at at least 10 million if we were open to selling 

You make a good point and no one can say we’ve wasted £12m on anyone. BB is 20yrs old and will continue to progress whilst Sam Gallagher hasn’t even played a full season for us. 

[Blue blood]

47 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

You make a good point and no one can say we’ve wasted £12m on anyone. BB is 20yrs old and will continue to progress whilst Sam Gallagher hasn’t even played a full season for us. 

Actually they can. Even TMs biggest fans can see Bereton has been a waste of money and Gally isn't living up to his £5 mill tag whatsoever. Granted there is time to improve for both but it's not looking likely. 

There's tons to praise TM for at the moment but just as it is wrong to ignore these when things are going badly, it's just as wrong to ignore these clangers in the transfer market. Thank heavens for some quality midfield signings and Armstrong to redress the balance. But let's not pretend Bereton and Gally haven't been hugely disappointing. 

[imy9]

13 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

No I said he’s had a more stable club to operate in, which those first months aside, he has.

I'd love to see the number of players Tony inherited that were either loans or their contracts were up for renewal compared to Bowyer. 

In the season Bowyer took charge we broke the championship record for a transfer with 8 million for Rhodes. We also had the likes of MGP, Hanley, Givet, Olsson, Best, Murphy, King, Dann, Dunn, Rochina, Goodwillie in the squad. 

Players who cost a lot of money /on pl wages/ sellable assets. 

In comparison Tony had the likes of Raya, Mulgrew, Nyambe, Conway, Guthrie, Stokes, Graham. 

I would also argue that Raya and Nyambe became better players after that season with Tony. 

So from the playing aspect Tony has rebuilt the entire squad and I was immensely proud to see: Lennihan, Nyambe, Travis, Buckley in the first 11 and Joe Castello on the bench. 

[Mattyblue]

Not knocking TM. Unlike many others I’ve never called for his head.

However, think GB deserves a lot of respect for the job he did around 2013, when there was every chance of back to back relegations with the club engulfed in a civil war.

[DE.]

Bowyer had a lower transfer budget and higher wage bill, with the opposite being the case for Mowbray. The ultimate difference in budgets probably isn't that big overall. As far as the stability of the club both walked into chaos, but Mowbray has benefited from being able to build a more stable behind-the-scenes structure than Bowyer ever experienced. Although that may be down to TM's desire to do so and Bowyer's lack of experience in understanding the necessity of doing so. 

Until TM betters Bowyer's league finishes I don't think it can conclusively be said he's doing better, but it's a pointless comparison to me anyway. The aim is top six and so far neither Bowyer nor Mowbray has achieved it. It doesn't really matter to me who finished 8th or 10th or 15th or whatever. All finishes that achieved nothing ultimately so much of the same.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by DE.

[47er]

51 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

BB is 20yrs old and will continue to progress

"will...... progress" You know this how? I don't see much progression. He still can't trap it for a start. And he doesn't play much because TM doesn't pick him. 

The only problem is that it allows you and others to say we can't write him off because he's never had a fair chance. Which is unprovable and circular. Logically you should be having a go at the manager for neglecting him but you never do!

"will continue to progress" is clever, it accepts unquestioningly that he is progressing. He isn't.

As for Gallagher, there is a footballer in there somewhere and maybe TM and the staff can bring him on. But, at the time we bought him, he was never worth £5M or even half.

 

[tomphil]

'continue to progress'... ????

I think the total and utter lack of that is the biggest issue on this one.

Zero signs, very worrying as is the lack of finally facing up to the truth they've made a real cock up on that one. Once it's actually finally acknowledged only then can they decide the best course of action for club and lad and move forwards with it.

All this over positive stuff is a step up the fools ladder it rarely delivers.  Reality and dealing with that are what sorts things out for the better.

[DE.]

32 minutes ago, 47er said:

"will...... progress" You know this how? I don't see much progression. He still can't trap it for a start. And he doesn't play much because TM doesn't pick him. 

The only problem is that it allows you and others to say we can't write him off because he's never had a fair chance. Which is unprovable and circular. Logically you should be having a go at the manager for neglecting him but you never do!

"will continue to progress" is clever, it accepts unquestioningly that he is progressing. He isn't.

As for Gallagher, there is a footballer in there somewhere and maybe TM and the staff can bring him on. But, at the time we bought him, he was never worth £5M or even half.

 

Just to note even though Blue Blood is showing as being quoted for this post it was actually Paul Mani's words...

Edited February 24, 2020 by DE.

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

"will...... progress" You know this how? I don't see much progression. He still can't trap it for a start. And he doesn't play much because TM doesn't pick him. 

The only problem is that it allows you and others to say we can't write him off because he's never had a fair chance. Which is unprovable and circular. Logically you should be having a go at the manager for neglecting him but you never do!

"will continue to progress" is clever, it accepts unquestioningly that he is progressing. He isn't.

As for Gallagher, there is a footballer in there somewhere and maybe TM and the staff can bring him on. But, at the time we bought him, he was never worth £5M or even half.

 

This threw me as I couldn't remember saying such a thing, then realised it was part of the post I quoted! 

I think there is an argument that both Gally and Bereton could come good as they have time on their side to develop but I wouldn't think it is very likely. Bereton doesn't look like a footballer at all to me and Gally doesn't look to have much of a football brain if he does have the physical attributes. 

At present, since how a player may turn out doesn't really count - Dack could come back crap or Armstrong could go back to his prior form yet these possibilities aren't considered, and rightly so - both are failures in terms of performance level and contribution. Factor in the cost and they're catastrophic errors. Not sure why or how there is so much debate on saying these players haven't been failures as it's pretty clear cut imo. 

 

 

[Paul Mani]

5 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Actually they can. Even TMs biggest fans can see Bereton has been a waste of money and Gally isn't living up to his £5 mill tag whatsoever. Granted there is time to improve for both but it's not looking likely. 

There's tons to praise TM for at the moment but just as it is wrong to ignore these when things are going badly, it's just as wrong to ignore these clangers in the transfer market. Thank heavens for some quality midfield signings and Armstrong to redress the balance. But let's not pretend Bereton and Gally haven't been hugely disappointing. 

They have been hugely disappointing. But to accept that we have wasted the money is by definition accepting that they have already failed.

There have been people on here for two years complaining about Armstrong not being good enough. Suggesting he wasn’t a great signing at £1.75m. He was 19 when he went on loan in league 1. He had three loans before coming to us on loan (in league 1) and finally signing perm in 2018. Since this time he’s struggled with stops and starts but we persisted and now we have a top player.

So no, the money has not been wasted on Brereton or Gally, YET. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Paul Mani

[Paul Mani]

3 hours ago, tomphil said:

'continue to progress'... ????

I think the total and utter lack of that is the biggest issue on this one.

Zero signs, very worrying as is the lack of finally facing up to the truth they've made a real cock up on that one. Once it's actually finally acknowledged only then can they decide the best course of action for club and lad and move forwards with it.

All this over positive stuff is a step up the fools ladder it rarely delivers.  Reality and dealing with that are what sorts things out for the better.

He’s 20yrs old ffs!? Remove his price tag and he’s basically John Buckley, Magloire, Butterworth or JRC but living miles from home! I’m not saying he’s been a success so far but writing off a player who isn’t even 21 and has represented his country at U18 and U19 level as well as making 78 appearances in the Championship with an ‘acknowledgement’ that he’s not good enough is lunacy. 

[Mattyblue]

But there’s always the chance he never fulfils the potential he showed at U18 level. Many don’t, the game is littered with examples of ‘whatever happened to...’, 

Let’s hope he isn’t another for all parties concerned... but that’s why £7million was a hell of a punt for a club like us.

[Paul Mani]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

But there’s always the chance he never fulfils the potential he showed at U18 level. Many don’t, the game is littered with examples of ‘whatever happened to...’, 

Let’s hope he isn’t another for all parties concerned... but that’s why £7million was a hell of a punt for a club like us.

Absolutely - there is a chance that he never fulfils his potential. There’s little doubt that they got doughy eyed at the prospect of an 18yr old who had amazing pedigree and had played 50 games in the championship. They’d watched him destroy Arsenal in the cup and had been impressed with him in the last match we’d played vs Forest.

 

[Dreams of 1995]

There are days when Goodwillie would tear Arsenal's defence apart in truth.

Ben Brereton isn't worth £7m and I don't think potential is worth that risk either but nevertheless he's our player. Best thing the club can do is protect him from the drama surrounding his fee and keep him playing at either U23 level or first team. I've not been impressed though it has to be said. He has a lot of improvement in front of him if he's to become a fraction of the player he's supposed to be.

[Blue blood]

37 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

They have been hugely disappointing. But to accept that we have wasted the money is by definition accepting that they have already failed.

There have been people on here for two years complaining about Armstrong not being good enough. Suggesting he wasn’t a great signing at £1.75m. He was 19 when he went on loan in league 1. He had three loans before coming to us on loan (in league 1) and finally signing perm in 2018. Since this time he’s struggled with stops and starts but we persisted and now we have a top player.

So no, the money has not been wasted on Brereton or Gally, YET. 

Untrue on several levels: 

1) it's a false model for assessing transfers on what they may do not what they have done. I mean how can anyone judge any transfer then until they have left the club if it is based on what they may do? 

Also does this model work both ways? I mean Tosin may make a dozen muck ups in the next few games as we make playoffs. Because he might do that does that mean I can't rate him as a good signing? 

2) opportunity costs. What else could we have done with that money? Signed Bauer, maybe Walton (never thought I would say that) perhaps got in an actual winger or better cover at full back. There is a cost to spending that money now, which meant we can't spend it elsewhere. 

3) There is a huge difference between Armstrong and Gally and Bereton. For starters at 19 Armstrong had time to develop. Gally at 24 (I think) is at best a late developer and more crucially should be more developed than he currently is. 24 is not a development project. 

Also Armstrong showed attributes that suggested he could develop - great pace, some goals and a few good performances in league 1 and Championship. Consistency was absymal but he showed evidence - attributes and performances-  that he could improve and get better. Bereton has shown none of this and Gally imo has shown little. Assessing the current evidence of whether they wil improve I would suggest that it is unlikely. 

27 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

He’s 20yrs old ffs!? Remove his price tag and he’s basically John Buckley, Magloire, Butterworth or JRC but living miles from home! I’m not saying he’s been a success so far but writing off a player who isn’t even 21 and has represented his country at U18 and U19 level as well as making 78 appearances in the Championship with an ‘acknowledgement’ that he’s not good enough is lunacy. 

We can't remove the price tag though can we? That £7 mill is gone. Of course price makes a huge difference to whether a signing is good or not. Smallwood was a good signing for one year on a free. Would he be conaider e as good a signing if he cost £5 mill? Fee matters. And neither Gally or Bereton have been worth their fees.

Also your endorsement sounds rather like Jason Lowe - huge difference between cutting it at those levels and in the championship. And all the evidence I have seen of Bereton suggests he is not a footballer. Few strengths whatsoever. 

I should say I would love for both to prove me wrong. In fact Rovers need at least one of them to. But so far the future looks bleak and a waste of money for.both of them. 

[Blue blood]

12 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

There are days when Goodwillie would tear Arsenal's defence apart in truth.

Ben Brereton isn't worth £7m and I don't think potential is worth that risk either but nevertheless he's our player. Best thing the club can do is protect him from the drama surrounding his fee and keep him playing at either U23 level or first team. I've not been impressed though it has to be said. He has a lot of improvement in front of him if he's to become a fraction of the player he's supposed to be.

You are spot on about protecting him Think a loan is best for him to do that. The U23s is fairly pointless imo bar improving fitness. Think he needs a loan away where he can bang them in and get a bit of sharpness and confodence, and develop his technique. Probably a league 1 club or weak foreign league would do that better than the U23s. 

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

There have been people on here for two years complaining about Armstrong not being good enough. Suggesting he wasn’t a great signing at £1.75m.

In fairness I don't think this is entirely true. Whilst you're right that people have complained about Armstrong, it was usually tempered with "but at least he only cost us £1.75m" rather than also being angry at the fee. That was generally considered the saving grace for giving him time to come good (and on current form that is now happening). With Brereton and Gallagher it's somewhat the opposite as the feeling is that we've significantly overpaid rather than underpaid or paid the going rate.

[Mattyblue]

More sweeping (and false) statements from Mani.

In reality what was often said on here was that £1.7million for a goal scorer who’s played at every England youth level was a good deal and low risk as there was always every chance we’d make our money back, in comparison to some of the other deals we’ve entered into.

£1.7million for a young forward with ‘pedigree’, England youth caps, and 50+ Championship appearances = good deal. £7million for another young lad with the the same stats = not so much.

 

[DE.]

I remember very few people complaining about Armstrong's fee in all honesty. Gripes about his performances were purely based on his perceived value to the team at the time and other options which weren't being explored. Armstrong did go through a period of repeated poor performances and kept getting selected. Any player and manager would come under some criticism for that. His fee, as far as I remember, was rarely brought up in a negative sense or to compound the issue in any way. Armstrong just wasn't performing at the level we needed. Obviously that's changed and long may it continue.