Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Waggy76]

12 minutes ago, DE. said:

Yeah, it's strange but even when our better players are injured or suspended it doesn't seem to make that much difference to our overall form. In fact when Dack got injured I believe our form generally picked up rather than declined - but I believe it would have been roughly the same whether he'd have been present or not. Under TM our form seems to swing between good and bad irrespective of who is playing. Sometimes we'll see a line up and think "yes, that's exactly what we need" and the resulting performance will be dire. Alternatively sometimes we'll see a line up and think "wtf" and we'll go on to play well and win.That's why for the most part I've stopped paying attention to how we line up as it seems to have no major bearing on the end result. In my view it's not a good thing as it suggests we can't get the best out of our top players, and our system is largely designed to limit every player to a certain ability level. Good enough to keep us in mid-table as long as the standard of player is on average fairly decent, but never enough to push us beyond that point and in danger of dragging us downwards if the quality of players at the club begins to nosedive as it did during GB's tenure (and I would argue he was very similar to Mowbray in regards to the above).

That is a good summing up , it is an odd one , how results of the two managers mirror each other ...

Must be something in characters of the players signed or the ambition ?

I very much doubt Bowyer would have got us promotion out of the 3rd Division 1st time of asking or even at all....

Mulgrew and Grahams powers have waned a lot since ....Modern day ,Hendry and  Speedie  types are needed now for those 2 key positions..

[K-Hod]

4-6-0 with a central midfielder as a false 9, a striker on the right and our biggest goal threat on the bench.
If we had a competent board, I’d think he was trying to get fired. Absolutely mental.

[simongarnerisgod]

im`e not sure what formation it was,all it resembled was 10 players running around not knowing their job with most of them out of position added to the mix was an incompetent goalkeeper,who incidentally is one of the worst iv`e ever seen,though it would not surprise me in the slightest if the board contacted brighton,negotiated and signed him permanently,thats the kind of club we are

[rigger]

18 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

I would have played Armstrong as I said all week and in the match thread today. 

Is he 100% fit?

If he is fit enough to be on the bench for two games. He is fit enough to start 

[arbitro]

24 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

4-6-0 with a central midfielder as a false 9, a striker on the right and our biggest goal threat on the bench.
If we had a competent board, I’d think he was trying to get fired. Absolutely mental.

The point was made on Radio Lancashire that the several players were picked in positions and roles they didn't understand how to play in and consequently were hardly were in the right positions. It's another example of Mowbray over thinking and complicating things.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, arbitro said:

The point was made on Radio Lancashire that the several players were picked in positions and roles they didn't understand how to play in and consequently were hardly were in the right positions. It's another example of Mowbray over thinking and complicating things.

But knew last week against Bristol City when we would 3-1 playing the same way. 

Bennett move to left back and Rothwell in centre midfield for Evans 

[simongarnerisgod]

Just now, arbitro said:

The point was made on Radio Lancashire that the several players were picked in positions and roles they didn't understand how to play in and consequently were hardly were in the right positions. It's another example of Mowbray over thinking and complicating things.

does it make you wonder about the fact the players don`t seem bothered about the tactical shambles that often ensues,they seem far to content to me just to be going through the motions,things ar`nt going to plan,just shrug your shoulder and carry on,we`ll still get paid

[arbitro]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

But knew last week against Bristol City when we would 3-1 playing the same way. 

Bennett move to left back and Rothwell in centre midfield for Evans 

Horses for courses. Bristol City don't play like Wigan as was pointed out by Kevin Gallacher and we were playing away. It was said that Holtby played as a 10 against Bristol not a false 9 (whatever that is).

[tomphil]

9 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

I find it difficult to believe that we wouldn't be at least four points better off, i.e. in the playoffs, if Dack had played the last 15-20 games...

Not so sure personally that's just idealistic thinking it's rarely that straightforwards. Why didn't we get into the players with a 40 goal strike force a few years ago ?

We've had games were the formation has been different meaning we've looked comfortable and won, we've had tight games where you think he'd make the difference. He'd still have to conquer something up though and we had had plenty non event games like yesterday still when he was in the side.

It's the bigger picture that's often lacking imo not just the void of Dack.

[Waggy76]

12 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Not so sure personally that's just idealistic thinking it's rarely that straightforwards. Why didn't we get into the players with a 40 goal strike force a few years ago ?

We've had games were the formation has been different meaning we've looked comfortable and won, we've had tight games where you think he'd make the difference. He'd still have to conquer something up though and we had had plenty non event games like yesterday still when he was in the side.

It's the bigger picture that's often lacking imo not just the void of Dack.

Its the lack of leaders throughout the team especially in defence ....

If Brad Friedel had played tthe last 15-20 games we would be in the play off spot...

[tomphil]

9 minutes ago, Waggy76 said:

Its the lack of leaders throughout the team especially in defence ....

If Brad Friedel had played tthe last 15-20 games we would be in the play off spot...

Exactly that plus doing the same things over and over again yet expecting different results. We have subs coming on who rarely if ever change games they just slot in.

If we are 2 nil up and he brings on Samuel and the like we might just kill it off and win by 3 nil or whatever. How often do we rescue a game or turn it round though ?  

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Horses for courses. Bristol City don't play like Wigan as was pointed out by Kevin Gallacher and we were playing away. It was said that Holtby played as a 10 against Bristol not a false 9 (whatever that is).

well I watched last week against Bristol City and the Wigan game and we played the same way from the start. 

I haven't listened to Kevin Gallagher's comments on Radio Lancs yesterday. 

[MarkBRFC]

44 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Exactly that plus doing the same things over and over again yet expecting different results. We have subs coming on who rarely if ever change games they just slot in.

If we are 2 nil up and he brings on Samuel and the like we might just kill it off and win by 3 nil or whatever. How often do we rescue a game or turn it round though ?  

We don't usually.

We have only won 8 points all season from losing positions.

Huddersfield home - drew 2-2 after being 1-0 down

Sheff Wed home - won 2-1 after being 1-0 down

Swansea home - drew 2-2 after being 2-1 down

Bristol City home - won 3-1 after being 1-0 down

[tomphil]

12 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

I think they were regularly in the side, though (Gestede and Rhodes). Imagine where we'd have been without one or two of them for half a season.

I think it can be that simple when it comes to a key player like Dack. 4 points is all it would have taken to be where we all wanted to be for the season. Dack would have made that difference - easily. If you took Shearer out of the equation for half of our title-winning season, it wouldn't have been a title winning season.

Yeah i'd like to think so although his influence on the team isn't on a par with Shearer even taking into account the different levels of ability.

Worth considering though in line with what i said about the bigger picture having Dack in doesn't stop Walton gaffing, doesn't stop the manager providing the opposition with weak spots to target with his frequent square pegs in round holes approach. Also Dack good as he is was often doubled up on by the opposition or targeted by their henchmen as he surely would've been yesterday.

So whilst i agree i think he'd have coniored up another goal & assist or two i'm not sure we'd be miles better off points wise because other things negate it. We don't have the quality in the squad to exploit other areas when the opposition minds are being occupied by him, with Rudy & Rhodes ably assisted by Conway & Cairney and to a lesser extent Marshall we did.

Less carrying nice lads in the squad for the sake of harmony and a bit more quality and steel needed if we are to get over the line into top 6 contention on a regular basis.

[rigger]

7 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

well I watched last week against Bristol City and the Wigan game and we played the same way from the start. 

I haven't listened to Kevin Gallagher's comments on Radio Lancs yesterday. 

Bristol didn’t really pose much of a threat, whereas Wigan pushed us back more . So to adopt the same formation is very naive.

[tomphil]

9 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

We don't usually.

We have only won 8 points all season from losing positions.

Huddersfield home - drew 2-2 after being 1-0 down

Sheff Wed home - won 2-1 after being 1-0 down

Swansea home - drew 2-2 after being 2-1 down

Bristol City home - won 3-1 after being 1-0 down

That's a massive issue and some of comes down to just carrying players in the squad instead of going all out to try and find a game changer of two. Or even a nasty git or two who drag the rest along when needed.

I know things can't be helped at the min but next season the likes of Smallwood, Samuel and one or two others simply must be moved on in order to bring in something that'll contribute more than just being nice around the place.

Edited June 28, 2020 by tomphil

[arbitro]

11 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

well I watched last week against Bristol City and the Wigan game and we played the same way from the start. 

I haven't listened to Kevin Gallagher's comments on Radio Lancs yesterday. 

That's my point. Play against a team one way at home, win and play well, play the same way away, lose and play badly. Tactics and systems sometimes have to change depending on who we play and how they play. That is down to Mowbray and his coaches.

[Dreams of 1995]

Calls for Mowbray to go at the end of this season are over the top. None of us thought promotion was a given at the start of the season - it is just all the more frustrating with how close we keep getting to a chance only to flunk it. 
 

However it is becoming apparent that Mowbray may never break that duck of getting into the top 6. He has to seriously improve the teams consistency or move aside for a manager with fresh impetus. 

[Tom]

I wouldn’t call for him to go, but if there was someone lined up to push us on I’d be happy enough for it to happen. I’m not wise enough to suggest who that could be though, I like the option of dynamic young coaches from abroad like Wolves and Norwich pulled out of the hat but Henning Berg proved that’s risky 

Depends what the aim is, I think with Tony we could have a few more seasons like this where we are comfy in mid table with a flirt with the playoffs but I’m just not convinced he’ll ever break the glass ceiling here, lost track of times as a club we’ve got to 7th then regressed, the Yeovil home game under Bowyer seemed to start this trend in this generation!

Edited June 28, 2020 by Tom

[roversfan99]

17 minutes ago, arbitro said:

That's my point. Play against a team one way at home, win and play well, play the same way away, lose and play badly. Tactics and systems sometimes have to change depending on who we play and how they play. That is down to Mowbray and his coaches.

I am not sure how much I subscribe to this theory to be honest. I think the way to go is not to keep changing dependant on opposition, we shouldnt for example have Armstrong up top one week and Graham the next to try and play really average teams at their own game, we should be trying to come up with a consistent way that we excel in, a balanced way in which we can play a style we are best at. Mowbray seems keen to make us into a more technical side, Adarabioyo, Holtby, Downing etc which is fine and I can understand but it is not done with any conviction, any balance, any consistency or any structure. 

An extreme example and not one for direct comparison but look at Leeds under Bielsa. Before he rocked up they were very much mid table fodder, now they have the strongest identity in the division that they play all the time and they are going to go up. Even players underachieving before his arrival like Alioski and Dallas have been converted into positions in which amidst a consistent system they now excel in.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

My major criticism of Mowbray is in all the time he's been here he's never discovered a way of " winning ugly ".  We all knew what Wigan away would be like, just like they were when we played them at Ewood. A dogfight. Armed with that knowledge we should have been ready to roll our sleeves up from the first whistle and get stuck in. 

We're not too bad against the less physical teams that let us play,  but the minute we get in a game that calls for the battlers in the team to emerge we discover we haven't got any.

You can't play well every game but the successful teams learn how to " win ugly ".

Edited June 28, 2020 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[simongarnerisgod]

still fuming at the fact that wigan are a nothing team,who were there for the taking and we approached the game like frightened rabbits,ffs we wer`nt playing barcelona away in europe,i actually think mowbray has severe mental problems about losing a game,he does`nt give a thought that to win games you have to create chances and score goals

[arbitro]

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I am not sure how much I subscribe to this theory to be honest. I think the way to go is not to keep changing dependant on opposition, we shouldnt for example have Armstrong up top one week and Graham the next to try and play really average teams at their own game, we should be trying to come up with a consistent way that we excel in, a balanced way in which we can play a style we are best at. Mowbray seems keen to make us into a more technical side, Adarabioyo, Holtby, Downing etc which is fine and I can understand but it is not done with any conviction, any balance, any consistency or any structure. 

An extreme example and not one for direct comparison but look at Leeds under Bielsa. Before he rocked up they were very much mid table fodder, now they have the strongest identity in the division that they play all the time and they are going to go up. Even players underachieving before his arrival like Alioski and Dallas have been converted into positions in which amidst a consistent system they now excel in.

It not just about the way you play it's the way you set up. Guardiola will always play the same way but sometimes tweaks his formations to negate other teams threats. It's something that Mowbray doesn't do particularly well in my view.

[roversfan99]

Just now, arbitro said:

It not just about the way you play it's the way you set up. Guardiola will always play the same way but sometimes tweaks his formations to negate other teams threats. It's something that Mowbray doesn't do particularly well in my view.

Tweaks are sometimes understandable but I do feel like whilst Mowbray has brought in some better technical footballers, we still dont have a strong identity, we dont have a consistent formation or any real balance to our squad. Mowbray has flirted with 3 at the back, hes flirted with this false 9 nonsense, but he needs to find a way whereby our better technical players can find a way to dominate games within a balanced team. I'd like to see us concentrating on our own style and perfecting that but I am unconvinced how we can do that. Even yesterday there were times when through the lines the likes of Holtby, Downing, Adarabioyo, Travis and to a lesser extent Brereton and Rothwell played some lovely passes quickly through the lines but the team didnt have the correct balance and we didnt carry any goal threat.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

16 minutes ago, simongarnerisgod said:

still fuming at the fact that wigan are a nothing team,who were there for the taking and we approached the game like frightened rabbits,ffs we wer`nt playing barcelona away in europe,i actually think mowbray has severe mental problems about losing a game,he does`nt give a thought that to win games you have to create chances and score goals

The older you get the more cautious you get. I'd like it not be true but unfortunately it's a fact.

On another tack I was expecting Johnno to have made more of an impact with the players than he appears to have done.