Tony Mowbray Discussion

[Leonard Venkhater]

5 minutes ago, tomphil said:

And in recent times that covers the likes of Kean, Berg, Appleton, Bowyer, Coyle and now TM.

Most with a nice guy persona and non have really driven us forwards. Sorry but i couldn't care less what staff etc think of a manager he's there to do a job with the first team not pass the time of day with everybody. Lambert comes across as a bit of a twat and his style was pragmatic but show me a nice guy and i'll show you losers or stability at best.  Show me an arrogant angry arsehole and often you'll find a very driven winner.

Hahaha...As I am sure you know, it is not quite, as simple as that. I think you need to be able to engage, motivate and take people with you. A complete t**t would merely "lose the dressing room" like Hodgson and Souness( in the end).

That is not to say ruthlessness is not required, otherwise you just try to please everybody, handing out unwise, long term contracts like confetti, just to keep the group together ...oh wait a minute...

Edited July 3, 2020 by Leonard Venkhater

[tomphil]

27 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

I think he worked out fairly quickly he wouldn’t be stopping. Never moved out of his hotel (Stanley House) for a start...

Was he ever really here for the long haul though ?   Very much another of Balajis mates throwing up another cheap name who was on the dung pile but had a promotion on his CV.

Verdict was we'll have a look at each other there's nothing to lose we get a few months cheap management again whilst those behind the scenes line up players to sell.  He gets his name back in management, a few quid and ready made excuses as to why it didn't work out.

That's the way these lot work it would have been exactly the same with Mowbray had we stayed up. He'd probably have got no money and till October the following season then got shunted out in favour of another low end gamble if we were floundering. Relegation put a different more desperate angle on it and promotion straight away gave him untouchable status pretty quickly.

Edited July 3, 2020 by tomphil

[tomphil]

10 minutes ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Hahaha...As I am sure you know, it is not quite, as simple as that. I think you need to be able to engage, motivate and take people with you. A complete t**t would merely "lose the dressing room" like Hodgson and Souness( in the end).

That is not to say ruthlessness is not required, otherwise you just try to please everybody, handing out unwise, long term contracts like confetti, just to keep the group together ...oh wait a minute...

The one's i'm on about get their generals in the dressing room and get their allies on side. Those types most of the players will run through brick walls for although some end up detesting them. As a fan who cares as long as you aren't turning in insipid performances all the time.

Most of the players clearly play for Tony as they did Gaz hell some even did for King rat but do they run through brick walls for him ?  Do they bust a gut every game in pursuit of a goal or target set by the manager and club ?   Not that you'd notice.

The team reflects the manager - honest triers who follow his instructions but all too often neither party shows the real desire to go that extra yard. When they don't there's a set of rehashable excuses and a casual shrug of the shoulders, a why do today what will wait till tomorrow attitude it strikes me as.

Not enough urgency in simple terms.

Edited July 3, 2020 by tomphil

[simongarnerisgod]

16 minutes ago, tomphil said:

And in recent times that covers the likes of Kean, Berg, Appleton, Bowyer, Coyle and now TM.

Most with a nice guy persona and non have really driven us forwards. Sorry but i couldn't care less what staff etc think of a manager he's there to do a job with the first team not pass the time of day with everybody. Lambert comes across as a bit of a twat and his style was pragmatic but show me a nice guy and i'll show you losers or stability at best.  Show me an arrogant angry arsehole and often you'll find a very driven winner.

im`e probably in the minority who thought lambert was ok,imo he only quit because he thought he`d walk into the then available celtic job,im`e if he had stayed  we would`nt be burdened with deadwood like bennett,bell etc

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Absolutely. This is my sense as well. He took a similar tone several months ago about the time of the home fixture against Barnsley.

I think he knows he is losing the fans now because there is so little belief in any method or pattern of play.

After 3 years there are still too many no-shows with square pegs in round holes/polished turds( choose your own description!) 

Any notion of a long term, slow build project is hardly supported by the number of replacements that are required this summer and in so many key positions.

Despite loyal fans' fervent hopes and willingness to herald any flashes of improvement in Brereton and Gallagher, they are both down there with O'Mara, Chris Brown and our whole back catalogue of shit strikers.

If this were a normal club, we would agree It needs a catalyst and a new broom (Gordon Lee/Souness/Mackay)....but you know the rest....

You know Lenny I was duped by O'Mara and was taught a salutory lesson in judging players on one game. I went to Brentford just before we signed him and he was outstanding in a 3-0 Brentford win. I told all my mates about this top player and how I wished we had him. Lo and behold Furphy paid £30k soon after and I was delighted but, after making a million excuses I had to concede he was useless. I was actually surprised to see that he scored ten goals for us so in comparison to Brereton and Gallagher he was a world beater.

As we aside did you know O'Mara got a mention in an early seventies soft porn film?

[oldjamfan1]

9 minutes ago, arbitro said:

You know Lenny I was duped by O'Mara and was taught a salutory lesson in judging players on one game. I went to Brentford just before we signed him and he was outstanding in a 3-0 Brentford win. I told all my mates about this top player and how I wished we had him. Lo and behold Furphy paid £30k soon after and I was delighted but, after making a million excuses I had to concede he was useless. I was actually surprised to see that he scored ten goals for us so in comparison to Brereton and Gallagher he was a world beater.

As we aside did you know O'Mara got a mention in an early seventies soft porn film?

I think Mowbray made the same mistake with Brereton Tony!

Can't wait to hear the porn film story.....

 

[JHRover]

15 minutes ago, simongarnerisgod said:

im`e probably in the minority who thought lambert was ok,imo he only quit because he thought he`d walk into the then available celtic job,im`e if he had stayed  we would`nt be burdened with deadwood like bennett,bell etc

I agree with you. His tenure was by no means as bad as some like to make out. Some like to revise history because they didn't like the bloke or the fact he walked out.

It might not have been riveting to watch but I could see clear evidence of a way of playing, improved fitness and defensive improvements. Clearly once word got out that he was on his way and we were safe from relegation the end of the season was going through the motions time. 

As usual though personalities rub off. Seems the order of the day with the owners and down at Ewood/Brockhall is to have someone who is a nice bloke. Such a body on reception likes him because he makes her a brew and has a natter on a Monday morning and the owners like him because he goes to India and tells them how fantastic they are. No matter if results are crap. 

Give me a win at all costs bloke any day.

Edited July 3, 2020 by JHRover

[Leonard Venkhater]

17 minutes ago, arbitro said:

You know Lenny I was duped by O'Mara and was taught a salutory lesson in judging players on one game. I went to Brentford just before we signed him and he was outstanding in a 3-0 Brentford win. I told all my mates about this top player and how I wished we had him. Lo and behold Furphy paid £30k soon after and I was delighted but, after making a million excuses I had to concede he was useless. I was actually surprised to see that he scored ten goals for us so in comparison to Brereton and Gallagher he was a world beater.

As we aside did you know O'Mara got a mention in an early seventies soft porn film?

No!

Me and my mate from Darwen met him in The Dirty Duck, when a few of the players came in. It was a quiet Tuesday night and our away game at Bolton had been called off.

Kit Napier and Barry Endean even gave me a lift at the end of the night!

I have to say O'Mara seemed slightly odd. We actually thought he was trying to take the p***, but not quite sure!.

I remember 3 members of the aforementioned Queens JM Appreciation society came in later and they could not believe what they saw-JM in "deep" conversation with the likes of us.

We never told them he was taking the p***!

 

[roversfan99]

22 minutes ago, simongarnerisgod said:

im`e probably in the minority who thought lambert was ok,imo he only quit because he thought he`d walk into the then available celtic job,im`e if he had stayed  we would`nt be burdened with deadwood like bennett,bell etc

Bennett was one of his first signings and a big favourite from his Norwich days do dont be so sure. Indeed he signed him, Simeon Jackson and Elliott Ward all of whom he had managed previously as well as a few expensive loans, including Graham in his defence as he embraced the sale of our remaining quality player.

I think his record not just at Rovers but across various jobs in different situations show that he does not have the competence.

I agree that having someone who everyone around the club loves is not necessarily condusive to success but conversely Lamberts persona is in my opinion part of his tactic to try (and often succeed) to deflect attention away from what hes doing or not doing on the pitch by appearing to be ruthless, no nonsense, honest, hard hitting etc and ultimately it can have the effect of making the fans warm to him and usually direct their anger elsewhere. 

[Leonard Venkhater]

15 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

I think Mowbray made the same mistake with Brereton Tony!

Can't wait to hear the porn film story.....

 

What? You mean you haven't immediately ordered the film!

[arbitro]

10 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

I think Mowbray made the same mistake with Brereton Tony!

Can't wait to hear the porn film story.....

 

??

It was called Four Dimensions of Greta and was the first 3D film I saw, not bad for the early seventies. It centred around a Brentford footballer who was a bit of a player (with the women that is) and lots of shots were in the ground. The actor made lots of 'big John centre forward' references as well as mentioning other players from the then Brentford team.

We saw it at the Odeon and as a group of adolescents were giggling through it. The O'Mara mention was the highlight ???.

[oldjamfan1]

18 minutes ago, arbitro said:

??

It was called Four Dimensions of Greta and was the first 3D film I saw, not bad for the early seventies. It centred around a Brentford footballer who was a bit of a player (with the women that is) and lots of shots were in the ground. The actor made lots of 'big John centre forward' references as well as mentioning other players from the then Brentford team.

We saw it at the Odeon and as a group of adolescents were giggling through it. The O'Mara mention was the highlight ???.

I often heard Johnny Price being mentioned in porn films but never John O'Mara 

[Gav]

1 hour ago, simongarnerisgod said:

im`e probably in the minority who thought lambert was ok,imo he only quit because he thought he`d walk into the then available celtic job,im`e if he had stayed  we would`nt be burdened with deadwood like bennett,bell etc

Lambert left because the money he was promised to rebuild the side never materialised.

He gave Venkys the option, give him the money promised when he signed, or he'd walk, they didn't deliver and he walked, fair play to the man I say. 

 

[PeteJD13]

I think Lambert walked because he knew he wasn't up to it as has been proved in every job since, had he actually strung more than a handful of decent results together he wouldn't have walked he saw we weren't improving and walked blamed the owners. All about saving his rep which has rightly been tarnished by the lousy jobs he's done at Stoke and Ipswich

Edited July 3, 2020 by PeteJD13

[Norbert Rassragr]

Skimming through the last page or two, you might think Mowbray is about to retire and make 70s style soft porn films with Paul Lambert if you were not paying attention.

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, Gav said:

Lambert left because the money he was promised to rebuild the side never materialised.

He gave Venkys the option, give him the money promised when he signed, or he'd walk, they didn't deliver and he walked, fair play to the man I say. 

 

Is there any concrete evidence to back this up or is it merely an urban myth concocted to beat Venky's up with at the time?

Imo he lost the players after the first 5 games and if he was lied to, you wouldn't have known it, he couldn't have been more fulsome in his praise for everyone at the Club when he left.

 

[RevidgeBlue]

3 hours ago, oldjamfan1 said:

I think Mowbray made the same mistake with Brereton Tony!

Can't wait to hear the porn film story.....

 

Maybe that's the reason for the new beard.

?

[AllRoverAsia]

1 minute ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Is there any concrete evidence to back this up or is it merely an urban myth concocted to beat Venky's up with at the time?

Imo he lost the players after the first 5 games and if he was lied to, you wouldn't have known it, he couldn't have been more fulsome in his praise for everyone at the Club when he left.

 

Lambert's job was to sell Rhodes for as much as possible. Job done he left. His Bank manager was happy.

[Stuart]

3 hours ago, oldjamfan1 said:

That's exactly how I saw it too Tony. I think he will retire at the end of the season.

I actually think he could be a good L1 manager, providing he has funding. He’s not really old enough to retire unless he has made his millions and can afford to spend his days playing golf and scouting.

If he does go, it’s no longer clear if we have a ready-to-go understudy in Damien Johnson. His transition to first team coach was extremely successful in removing a potential Mowbray rival and the pressure that was starting to build by having a very successful development team manager at the club.

Here’s hoping for another attempt at bringing in a proven manager (and not with the last success on the CV being a decade ago like Mowbray and Coyle) - particularly if FFP being relaxed a little means we have a reasonable budget in the Summer. Mowbray must surely have had his last war chest from Venkys.

I’d like to see us look at the European market.

[Mashed Potatoes]

13 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I actually think he could be a good L1 manager, providing he has funding. He’s not really old enough to retire unless he has made his millions and can afford to spend his days playing golf and scouting.

If he does go, it’s no longer clear if we have a ready-to-go understudy in Damien Johnson. His transition to first team coach was extremely successful in removing a potential Mowbray rival and the pressure that was starting to build by having a very successful development team manager at the club.

Here’s hoping for another attempt at bringing in a proven manager (and not with the last success on the CV being a decade ago like Mowbray and Coyle) - particularly if FFP being relaxed a little means we have a reasonable budget in the Summer. Mowbray must surely have had his last war chest from Venkys.

I’d like to see us look at the European market.

Phil Brown is out there.

[chaddyrovers]

6 hours ago, arbitro said:

I read Mowbrays latest comments and think he is disappointed that we just haven't kicked on this season and that individually certain players who he had high hopes for have flopped. Clearly he needs to look at himself and his staff if he is apportioning blame as team selection and tactics have placed limitations on some individuals. I also think the penny has dropped that he has taken us as far as he can and without a transfer window of big change we will continue to be mid table or below. 

This to me is a huge time coming up and I honestly think Mowbray has lost some belief in himself and his p!ayers.

I think he is annoyed by the last 2 performances by some players and us not taking as chances when we have had perfect opportunities to score. I am annoyed at Samuel for not taking his chances when he has had them. 

 

5 hours ago, K-Hod said:

A couple of things don’t sit right with me.

Whilst I fundamentally agree that Venky’s are more than capable of appointing someone worse, I don’t think it’s a good idea to just plod along with Mowbray and hope for the best. No manager should be ‘unsackable’, as we all know! What are we measuring success against? Surely if he doesn’t meet his targets, then he should be relieved of his duties?
 

 

Well it would be be good if we knew what the targets was from the owners to Mowbray but we never hear from them and I expect we wont. 

Yes we can all suggest what the targets should be from us but what are the owners targets

 

5 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Even deadwood like Gally and Bennett could contribute if they were played in the correct positions and used correctly. Sure neither should be starting but Bennett would be a great impact sub for shoring up games with his energy. A half decent manager might get Gally to put himself about and be a pain for defenders. And if played centrally with a bit of coaching in the physical side of the game, who knows, he might even get a few goals. 

But yeah, players not out of position, a system everyone knows, a regular and best first 11 with everyone knowing their role. All of this would easily see us as you say 10 points better off. 

And this is what irritates me. The needless nature of the way TM hampers the team and makes things harder for himself. It's beyond odd. 

I think you make a good point on Bennett and Gallagher. I feel that is Bennett is moved around the team and played out of positions cos he gave his all for this club, wont complain like some players would and will play anywhere for our club as he has said he the past. I agree with your point on Bennett role within the club

I would hope that Gallagher is working on his physical side of the game all season. 

[AllRoverAsia]

6 hours ago, 47er said:

I don't think he understands or admits that he's causing it to a great extent though.

That is Mowbray doing what he does best, buying himself and Waggott more time. He's on a contract and will not walk and there's nobody in the known universe to push him out.

I just can't understand why more can't see the obvious. Its a charade.

[tomphil]

48 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Phil Brown is out there.

The last 3 managers all have a Prem promotion on their CVs albeit a decade ago or near enough. There'd be another dour 35-1 shot for sure but there'd be no Phil Brown.

 

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

 

I am not saying that Mowbray has not impacted positively on their development as of course they have but to have players like Nyambe, Lenihan and Travis all as key players slightly reduces the scale of the recruitment job required, compare say to Preston, they dont even have an Under 23 team!

All of these reasons are why I refuse to accept the narrative that any manager is severely restricted by the resources available to them, I have given numerous factors as to why Rovers manager has plenty to work with and really be competitive. Mowbray of course is competitive but I just feel like there is a glass ceiling he will be unable to break through, im not staunchly against him continuing but the fact that we are even discussing limited resources and he has spent 12m on 2 players who havent at all contributed and of course there has been undeniable scope to be doing better.

Regarding Preston, I agree that no teams recruitment is perfect but if a new manager came into our club for example, I think it would be far more difficult not in terms of the quality players as they are similar but in terms of shaping a squad in a balanced way. Mowbray or another manager has now Johnson, Mulgrew and Bennett on huge wages well past their best, 2 useless strikers who will be nigh on impossible to shift, no professional goalkeepers under contract and no effective wide men under contract. Stockley for example was a cheap buy from the lower leagues who is an effective option (and has been better for them than our 12m strikers) from the bench and ultimately could be moved on fairly easily. Sinclair is a little bit removed from the norm and I presume their biggest earner but he would walk into our side and has a couple of goals from wide. Their squad is much more balanced both positionally and financially and they are effective at signing cheap players either from England or Ireland. 

Take on your point about the restriction that any new appointment would likely be agency driven rather than competence driven. Also there are certain other restrictions that will hinder any manager we have until changed, for example their disinterest leading to decisions on budgets etc being delayed leaving us behind the rest.

Thankyou for knowledge that he has made Nyambe, Travis and Lenihan key players for our club and that's why I am fan of promote even more young players when they are ready for the 1st team. I would expect Rankin Costello and Buckley to become 1st team regulars over the next couple of seasons. Would you agree with that? and the money we are spending on the academy that we keep promote the youth that are good enough for the 1st team squad? Do you get to many under 18's and 23's games or just the 1st team games? 

I don't anyone could defend that the signings of Brereton and Gallagher haven't work out for Mowbray and that's is disappointing. I don't think Brereton was even a target for us until the last 2 or 3 days of that window when Karanka and Forest made him available for sale. 

I would say that Preston have pick up some bargains over the years like Ben Pearson or Daniel Johnson or Sean Maguire. The scouts and recruitment department at Preston deserve credit for that but that's been one of my biggest problem of the Venkys reign is the lack of investment into the scouting and recruitment departments over the years and having a proper scout structure in place, This is the 1st time we have scouting system in place with scouts looking overseas and our data analysis department as well. Hopefully this season we will see the benefit of the investment this summer and the future. 

Bennett, Johnson and Mulgrew have 12 months left on their contract and hopefully Mulgrew moves on cos he shouldn't be part of the 1st team squad anyone. Bennett and Johnson are squad players and we should use their experience. 

 

4 hours ago, simongarnerisgod said:

im`e probably in the minority who thought lambert was ok,imo he only quit because he thought he`d walk into the then available celtic job,im`e if he had stayed  we would`nt be burdened with deadwood like bennett,bell etc

I like Lambert and thought given time would have got us top 6 within his time at the club. 

I was told that Lambert never trusted Venkys from day 1 and that's why he had that walk away clause in his contract before he would joined the club. Also he walk away cos of the lack of communication between him and the owners. He did a detail plan for his vision for the club going forward and sent it to the owners and never had a response, Also IMO, that's the lack of CEO at the club was a massive issue for him as he face similar problems at Villa. He made some good signings and he was always going to sell Rhodes from when he joined the club as he isn't his type of striker, He mostly played with a Target man striker with skilful number 10 during his time as a manager until his Ipswich time. 

[roversfan99]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Thankyou for knowledge that he has made Nyambe, Travis and Lenihan key players for our club and that's why I am fan of promote even more young players when they are ready for the 1st team. I would expect Rankin Costello and Buckley to become 1st team regulars over the next couple of seasons. Would you agree with that? and the money we are spending on the academy that we keep promote the youth that are good enough for the 1st team squad? Do you get to many under 18's and 23's games or just the 1st team games? 

I don't anyone could defend that the signings of Brereton and Gallagher haven't work out for Mowbray and that's is disappointing. I don't think Brereton was even a target for us until the last 2 or 3 days of that window when Karanka and Forest made him available for sale. 

I would say that Preston have pick up some bargains over the years like Ben Pearson or Daniel Johnson or Sean Maguire. The scouts and recruitment department at Preston deserve credit for that but that's been one of my biggest problem of the Venkys reign is the lack of investment into the scouting and recruitment departments over the years and having a proper scout structure in place, This is the 1st time we have scouting system in place with scouts looking overseas and our data analysis department as well. Hopefully this season we will see the benefit of the investment this summer and the future. 

Bennett, Johnson and Mulgrew have 12 months left on their contract and hopefully Mulgrew moves on cos he shouldn't be part of the 1st team squad anyone. Bennett and Johnson are squad players and we should use their experience. 

 

I like Lambert and thought given time would have got us top 6 within his time at the club. 

I was told that Lambert never trusted Venkys from day 1 and that's why he had that walk away clause in his contract before he would joined the club. Also he walk away cos of the lack of communication between him and the owners. He did a detail plan for his vision for the club going forward and sent it to the owners and never had a response, Also IMO, that's the lack of CEO at the club was a massive issue for him as he face similar problems at Villa. He made some good signings and he was always going to sell Rhodes from when he joined the club as he isn't his type of striker, He mostly played with a Target man striker with skilful number 10 during his time as a manager until his Ipswich time. 

- The academy players obviously are important but their existence doesnt strengthen Mowbrays position. These players and the academy would still be here if Mowbray moved on. Since Travis only Buckley and Rankin Costello have been given first team minutes but not with any conviction. Is making best use out of our academy important? Of course. Does it have any relevance to whether Mowbray should stay or go? Not really.

- Gallagher and Brereton are more than "dissappointing" they have massively stunted the potential of this team being a lot further down the line. Once more, Mowbray now seems infactuated with a 433 formation which involves no strikers, playing attacking midfielders as false 9's and strikers as wingers.

- Who is going to take on Mulgrews wages, especially in a pandemic driven economic climate? He shouldnt have been given such a long contract. Bennett is not good enough even to be a "squad player" his experience doesnt come into any use when he still constantly gives away foul after foul and he is not a competent option in any position. Again sitting on another year contract. We have no wingers and hes not even considered there. Right back? A liability. Central midfield? Cant pass. Left back? Dont make me laugh. And Johnson is practically immobile, a really poor signing and a high earning one at that. No matter who our manager is, our transfer activity would always be hindered at times like these when weve got these players taking up high wages but not up to it on the pitch.