Tony Mowbray Discussion

[booth]

On 16/01/2021 at 20:33, matt83 said:

I believe they relay the pitch at the end of every season. But the 28 years thing will be presumably referring to the whole system from under soil heating, to drainage, etc.

Lets call it what it is though just another excuse out of Mowbray’s big book of ridiculous excuses 

Anyone remember what the pitch was like when we went up in 1992? Not great, worse than today I'd say.
 

 

[Mattyblue]

The pitch was even worse in 1994/95. Didn’t do that side any harm.

But from then on until this regime, we had a cracking, often award winning surface.

[chaddyrovers]

33 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I don't know about anyone else but I must have spent hours over the last few weeks thinking, talking and posting about the situation and the route forward.

Anyone reckon our owners or incredibly well paid CEO have given the subject a seconds thought?

 

Yes you have spent hours over the last few weeks posting a road map and ideas for after Mowbray. You have posted some good ideas and thoughts. 

But JH, has been posted by Kamy that Venkys are happy with Mowbray as manager and aren't looking to make a change.

Have Venkys thought about Mowbray's successor? nope. 

Waggott? maybe so or maybe not. But is it within his remit to appoint new manager or recommend the sacking of a manager? Look at what happened to Paul Hunt after his letter leaked? sacked within days

[booth]

6 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

The pitch was even worse in 1994/95. Didn’t do that side any harm.

But from then on until this regime, we had a cracking, often award winning surface.

I remember it being a muddy mess at both ends of the pitch. Mowbray likes to forget the pitch is poor for both teams, not just his.

[Ghost7]

It will be a different feel after one bobbles over Kaminski's foot on Tuesday night. We have billionaire owners today, the state of the pitch, the fact it's been allowed to get to this and the length of time it will take for them to replace it is a direct reflection of where Rovers are on their list of priorities.

I doubt it will happen any time soon, although I look forward to the club proving me wrong.

[jasprovers]

15 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

You as touched upon seem to have fallen into the trap of falling for what he says. If he is all about the long term, why did he sign 4 loanees this season and Downing for 12 months? You acknowledge that he has failed to improve the same achilles heel in defence that we had since promotion. Inconsistencies in selection are mainly from the injury prone players he has signed or refused to let go even when interest arose. The intangibles behind the scenes are not bearing out improvements on the pitch. And this idea of our fully fit squad is really speculative, its the argument of an underachiever in Mowbray making excuses. So many teams have had injury woes on par or worse than us this season. We will rarely if ever have a fully fit squad.

The Premier League argument is heavily flawed. There are only positives from us going up, no negatives at all. Financially is the obvious one. On the playing side, Armstrong would likely sign a new deal so we could protect that investment, Nyambe likewise. Elliott could well come back. And we would have the platform to invest sensibly and prudently, we wouldnt have to be using Gallagher, Brereton, Buckley and Rothwell every week. As long as we genuinely gave our all and tackled the league with enthusiasm rather than throwing in the towel before a ball was kicked, then even if we came back down in the first season we would be in a much better place. And there are some crap teams at the bottom of the Premier League so with savvy signings survival is not an unreachable dream. There is no genuine reasoning in being ready or not ready for the Premier League. If you get promoted you are ready, if not you are not.

If the only alternative is to keep swapping between a Kean to a Berg to an Appleton then maybe we would settle for Mowbray. But it isnt and that is hardly a ringing endorsement anyway.

Maybe I have. I understand everyone's point of view. Some bad decisions have been made, but the amount of loan players we bring in is down to us not being able to bring in transfers due to lack of funds. We've tried over the last 4 years to bring players in but have been priced out and have had to resort to bringing in loans. Most recently with Pickering and Kipre, in the past we tried to sign the likes of Mcgin. We've had to settle for Ayala and Douglas. I believe Downing was signed with the thought of a lack of leaders and to add experience to a very young dressing room after the loss of Graham and Mulgrew in the dressing room. You can't say Lenihan is a leader. Maybe he will improve now he seems to have a defensive partner he can trust but we're yet to see Lenihan act as a captain. 

I agree that money was wasted both on Breo and Gallagher, but the improvement in Breo this season has made me question whether at some point he will come through and show he is worth the price we paid for him. Gallagher has regressed yes, his touch is terrible. 

Of course I want Rovers to be back in the Prem, I would rather just go up as a team that dominates games can keep hold of the ball and can sustain itself within the Prem. I understand we need the money from being promoted. But wouldn't everyone prefer that if we were to go up that we would stay up rather than being an up and down yoyo team. 

Since being relegated from the prem, the future hasn't looked so bright for Rovers. I don't think there has been a season where I have been excited to watch Rovers every game. I know things have been dire recently but I am still excited by the prospect of having a team with a fully fit Dack and Travis in. We cant rely on Johnson to do a job every week in midfield or defence. I am excited by the likes of Armstrong, Nyambe, Rothwell, Breo, and Buckley (I know he's weak at the moment but he'll get stronger and more powerful). 

I would give TM till the end of the season to make a real push for promotion. Anything outside the top 8 is a failure. Even if we were just to miss out on the playoffs. I believe the likes of Arma, Rothwell and Nyambe would be convinced to stay if Mowbray stayed. I think we're at greater risk of losing them and not being able to bring players if we get rid of Mowbray now. 

[Mattyblue]

So 8th is fine, 9th is a failure? Is there a prize for 8th in the Championship?

[jasprovers]

5 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

So 8th is fine, 9th is a failure? Is there a prize for 8th in the Championship?

Obviously it's more to do with how many points we finish off the playoffs. I believe if we're very close, players will be more likely to stay.

[Sparks Rover]

10 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

So 8th is fine, 9th is a failure? Is there a prize for 8th in the Championship?

There is here...new contracts all round and chippy friday stays...🍹

[Dolly blue]

2 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

Obviously it's more to do with how many points we finish off the playoffs. I believe if we're very close, players will be more likely to stay.

I wish I shared your optimism......I can see very few committing to Ewood whilst Mowbray is at the helm....what’s he ever done for Nyambe ? ....only played Travis when forced....Davenport must see his opportunities limited.....Armstrong will have eyes elsewhere.......Lenihan has regressed .

[jasprovers]

6 minutes ago, Dolly blue said:

I wish I shared your optimism......I can see very few committing to Ewood whilst Mowbray is at the helm....what’s he ever done for Nyambe ? ....only played Travis when forced....Davenport must see his opportunities limited.....Armstrong will have eyes elsewhere.......Lenihan has regressed .

Nyambe should play more and be at right back every week IMO, I think he misses games due to injury or being away with Namibia more than TM leaving him out. Travis was a certain starter every week before his injury, he will back in the side fully fit every game before the end of the season. Davenports time will come, this issue is that we've gone from playing 5 in the middle to 3 in the middle, so it has become harder to fit midfielders into the side. Armstrong can have eyes elsewhere but we all know his relationship with Mowbray and will leave in the summer if we have a new manager. Lenihan has regressed because he runs round like a headless chicken every game because he doesn't trust his centre back partners, it will change with Branthwaite. 

Without TM we wouldn't have been able to bring in Elliot or Branthwaite on loan. We try to sign players permanently but are priced out so have to resort for loans if it wasn't for TM's style of football this season or reputation neither would have joined. Elliot has shown more promise than any other player. Branthwaite looks like he's got a cool head on his shoulders at the back, which we have been missing since Tosin left. 

We would not be able to buy players or get players on loan from big Prem teams if for example Ainsworth was in charge. 

[Blue blood]

22 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

Maybe I have. I understand everyone's point of view. Some bad decisions have been made, but the amount of loan players we bring in is down to us not being able to bring in transfers due to lack of funds. We've tried over the last 4 years to bring players in but have been priced out and have had to resort to bringing in loans. Most recently with Pickering and Kipre, in the past we tried to sign the likes of Mcgin. We've had to settle for Ayala and Douglas. I believe Downing was signed with the thought of a lack of leaders and to add experience to a very young dressing room after the loss of Graham and Mulgrew in the dressing room. You can't say Lenihan is a leader. Maybe he will improve now he seems to have a defensive partner he can trust but we're yet to see Lenihan act as a captain. 

I agree that money was wasted both on Breo and Gallagher, but the improvement in Breo this season has made me question whether at some point he will come through and show he is worth the price we paid for him. Gallagher has regressed yes, his touch is terrible. 

Of course I want Rovers to be back in the Prem, I would rather just go up as a team that dominates games can keep hold of the ball and can sustain itself within the Prem. I understand we need the money from being promoted. But wouldn't everyone prefer that if we were to go up that we would stay up rather than being an up and down yoyo team. 

Since being relegated from the prem, the future hasn't looked so bright for Rovers. I don't think there has been a season where I have been excited to watch Rovers every game. I know things have been dire recently but I am still excited by the prospect of having a team with a fully fit Dack and Travis in. We cant rely on Johnson to do a job every week in midfield or defence. I am excited by the likes of Armstrong, Nyambe, Rothwell, Breo, and Buckley (I know he's weak at the moment but he'll get stronger and more powerful). 

I would give TM till the end of the season to make a real push for promotion. Anything outside the top 8 is a failure. Even if we were just to miss out on the playoffs. I believe the likes of Arma, Rothwell and Nyambe would be convinced to stay if Mowbray stayed. I think we're at greater risk of losing them and not being able to bring players if we get rid of Mowbray now. 

This is a spectacular list of excuses whilst glossing over mistakes. 

Priced out of moves and forced for loans? Bereton's fee alone would have paid for McGynn, Pickering and Kipre's fees. I get there are wages too, but then loan players have a big wedge of wages as well. I'm not quite sure up to this season that we are the paupers you suggest. Or taking another example Bauer was no way more expensive than Tosin. Not saying he's better but actually owning a solid championship player would have benefitted us more long term. 

As for Downing we brought him in because we needed experienced heads. Again this is damning with faint praise as if TM has assembled a squad with no leadership skills that he needs to bring a free agent in - well that says a lot about his squad building abilities and not in a positive way! Also players under 33 can be leaders too which again supports the idea that TM can't assemble a squad. It's not only available in a 33+ year old. 

Moving on ignoring that fact we blew 12 million - and if you think a couple of goals in an admittedly much improved Bereton warrants a fee of £6-7 million I fear you will be disappointed - you want a team that can sustain itself in the Prem. Given we don't even look likely of making playoffs under TM I'm not sure how this is a reason for keeping him. And whilst we would all prefer to stay there comfortably surely a yo-yo club is much better than being a mid championship outfit? And as for needing to impose ourselves playing football a certain way to stay in the league is sadly news to our 5 fingered neighbors. The inference from all that is we need to keep TM because he plays a certain way that will get and keep us up. History and the present shows that a) such a stylistic need is not true (Warnock with promotion, Big Sam keeping teams up) and that b) TM couldn't get us anywhere near promotion much less keep us there. It's a poor argument. 

Your optimism on the team is also a tad ambitious. Suggesting players will stay if we get near promotion? Everyone knows how the majority of footballers are massively disloyal. That's wishful thinking which goes against what's been seen over and over at our club and many others. To think those players will do well and still be here in a year or two just doesn't correlate with every championship team that we have seen. 

Another damning with faint praise is the can't rely on Johnson. That's been vintage TM for the last 2 years! 

As for the top 8 finish I feel that's a tad arbitrary as a cut off point. Is 9th and 2 points off worse than 8th and 10 points off? Also there's a heck of a difference between making a late surge up the table when it doesn't matter and genuinely be in the running for playoffs. 

Again you state keeping TM will help us attract players? What evidence is there for this? You even say he has wasted money and hasn't been able to afford targets (although I disagree with this point.) So by your own arguments it's hardly like he is a master recruiter. 

Not trying to have a go. Apologies if it comes across this way. I just don't see any evidence backing up your optimism. 

 

 

[Mattyblue]

Indeed blue blood. 

How could he possibly know who other managers would be able to bring in? How do you know they come here solely because of Mowbray? What is this ‘style of football’ you speak of? Players are loaned in from the PL throughout the league. 

Other managers could’ve built a side that isn’t so ridiculously unbalanced that loanee teenagers aren’t relied on to carry the team in the first place.

A lot of assumptions at work here to defend a manager that is currently failing by your own laid out remit for success one post ago.

[Mercer]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes you have spent hours over the last few weeks posting a road map and ideas for after Mowbray. You have posted some good ideas and thoughts. 

But JH, has been posted by Kamy that Venkys are happy with Mowbray as manager and aren't looking to make a change.

Have Venkys thought about Mowbray's successor? nope. 

Waggott? maybe so or maybe not. But is it within his remit to appoint new manager or recommend the sacking of a manager? Look at what happened to Paul Hunt after his letter leaked? sacked within days

We might all as well give up hope then where Rovers are concerned.

Think we are in a right feckin mess and only looking downwards.

IMO, four years of sheer mediocrity and some utterly abysmal football.

Sick of reading about the avuncular, honest, man of integrity Mowbray.  Think he's only concerned about one thing and that's himself.  Think hanging players out to dry is now common practice and the state of the pitch is now a God send for him.  IMO, excuse, after excuse after excuse - TAKE SOME OWNERSHIP / RESPONSIBILITY MOWBRAY.

Better still, just feck off.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Mercer

[jasprovers]

30 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

This is a spectacular list of excuses whilst glossing over mistakes. 

Priced out of moves and forced for loans? Bereton's fee alone would have paid for McGynn, Pickering and Kipre's fees. I get there are wages too, but then loan players have a big wedge of wages as well. I'm not quite sure up to this season that we are the paupers you suggest. Or taking another example Bauer was no way more expensive than Tosin. Not saying he's better but actually owning a solid championship player would have benefitted us more long term. 

As for Downing we brought him in because we needed experienced heads. Again this is damning with faint praise as if TM has assembled a squad with no leadership skills that he needs to bring a free agent in - well that says a lot about his squad building abilities and not in a positive way! Also players under 33 can be leaders too which again supports the idea that TM can't assemble a squad. It's not only available in a 33+ year old. 

Moving on ignoring that fact we blew 12 million - and if you think a couple of goals in an admittedly much improved Bereton warrants a fee of £6-7 million I fear you will be disappointed - you want a team that can sustain itself in the Prem. Given we don't even look likely of making playoffs under TM I'm not sure how this is a reason for keeping him. And whilst we would all prefer to stay there comfortably surely a yo-yo club is much better than being a mid championship outfit? And as for needing to impose ourselves playing football a certain way to stay in the league is sadly news to our 5 fingered neighbors. The inference from all that is we need to keep TM because he plays a certain way that will get and keep us up. History and the present shows that a) such a stylistic need is not true (Warnock with promotion, Big Sam keeping teams up) and that b) TM couldn't get us anywhere near promotion much less keep us there. It's a poor argument. 

Your optimism on the team is also a tad ambitious. Suggesting players will stay if we get near promotion? Everyone knows how the majority of footballers are massively disloyal. That's wishful thinking which goes against what's been seen over and over at our club and many others. To think those players will do well and still be here in a year or two just doesn't correlate with every championship team that we have seen. 

Another damning with faint praise is the can't rely on Johnson. That's been vintage TM for the last 2 years! 

As for the top 8 finish I feel that's a tad arbitrary as a cut off point. Is 9th and 2 points off worse than 8th and 10 points off? Also there's a heck of a difference between making a late surge up the table when it doesn't matter and genuinely be in the running for playoffs. 

Again you state keeping TM will help us attract players? What evidence is there for this? You even say he has wasted money and hasn't been able to afford targets (although I disagree with this point.) So by your own arguments it's hardly like he is a master recruiter. 

Not trying to have a go. Apologies if it comes across this way. I just don't see any evidence backing up your optimism. 

 

 

I agree mistakes have been made, specifically the amount the money we paid for Breo and Gallagher. I'm not saying either has made up for their price tag for scoring a couple of goals, it hasn't been good enough. With Breo though, he's still 21. We will get our moneys worth in the next couple of seasons, we've seen a good improvement already and still plenty of work to do.

TM has failed to bring in a leader. Money that we have spent has been on players for the future. Maybe money could have been spent on a leader rather than young lads who we have to wait a couple of seasons for in order for them to develop. But its difficult bringing in leaders on loan so we've had to resort to bringing in experience players on a free. 

We have gone from hoofing the ball up to DG last season to playing some really nice fast attacking football this year. To me this shows that we are adapting and improving. I am in NO WAY comparing TM to Klopp or Rovers to Liverpool, but what was the reason Elliot came here, because of our new attacking style of football similar to Lpools and because of everyone's respect for what he did with Tosin last year. Look at Liverpool now though, hampered at the back with injuries and because of this, confidence lacks and goals at the other end have dried up. Similar to Rovers in a way. You have to remember we've only been playing this new style of football with 4-3-3 since August. Liverpool have been playing that way for years and have the money to fix their defence. I know we don't have the money to do so, but I would rather go up as a team that dominates in the championship (which still can happen this season) like how Wolves or Leeds did. I know we don't have the money but I believe we have the attacking players to do this. I wouldn't want to go up like Huddersfield did, undeserved, rubbish football, scraped staying up straight back down. I want this club to establish itself again. If we were to get promoted I don't think we should go back to playing Big Sam football with the players we've got, I just don't think it would work. 

My optimism is ambitious but why can't we look forward to this young, exciting team we have. It's not come yet, but we have had glimpses of it which haven't been helped with a dodgy defence and injuries. I would rather be optimistic about this team not playing so well to getting rid ruining what has been built and going back to the days of Venky's hiring a yes man.

Dack has already put pen to paper which TM had a big part to play in. Armstrong still has till the end of next season, he may sign a new contract if we're looking likely to get promoted next season. Rothwell, Nyambe and Holtby I believe will sign again when things improve. The likes of Bell, Evans, Williams and Bennett are all dead weight and should be released. 

I don't believe TM is a master recruiter. We aren't a club with the money to attract top players so who can we bring in instead? Young, talented players who are here to develop themselves (Elliot and Branthwaite). Neither would have joined if it wasn;t for TM. Klopp would not allowed Elliot to go to any random club and neither would have Ancelotti. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect yours, I enjoy a debate. Maybe I am delirious and believe that this club is in a good position under TM. The memory of Owen Coyle and Lambert conning this club out of money still lives fresh in my memories. 

I truly believe he has the best interests of the club at heart. 

[chaddyrovers]

13 minutes ago, Mercer said:

We might all as well give up hope then where Rovers are concerned.

Think we are in a right feckin mess and only looking downwards.

IMO, four years of sheer mediocrity and some utterly abysmal football.

Sick of reading about the avuncular, honest, man of integrity Mowbray.  Think he's only concerned about one thing and that's himself.  Think hanging players out to dry is now common practice and the state of the pitch is now a God send for him.  IMO, excuse, after excuse after excuse - TAKE SOME OWNERSHIP / RESPONSIBILITY MOWBRAY.

Better still, just feck off.

Well Mercer, if you want to give up then that's down to yourself. I wont be.

We arent in a mess at all. Mowbray has put a proper football infrastructure in place, proper football recruitment and Scouting departments in place plus data analysis department.  Plus with our under 23's and 18's teams developing and being invested every year our future is bright. 

4 years of mediocrity? Really? Look at how long Leeds were down to Championship and Forest are still down here in this league. A team Clough won 2 European cups with. It took Sheffield United 5 years to get of League 1. Mowbray got us up at the 1st attempt from league 1 despite you want him out. 

The next paragraph you reply to me with quite alot, why keep repeating yourself? I'm not bothered what you think of Mowbray. IMO, Mowbray is a honest, full of integrity and trustworthy man. 

[Mattyblue]

WE DON’T PLAY ATTACKING FOOTBALL (despite what the manager  says).

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Mattyblue

[Ulrich]

Chaddy ever considered politics? 

We aren't playing well, we are disjointed and are some margin away from the play offs,in poor form. If season on season we could see progress in results and play, then I could understand giving him more time, but we do not and the last 3 seasons are pretty much the same. It is time to roll the dice. I do not want to sell say AA and give the funds to TM, his track record with money is shocking and I'd rather let a new man spend the cash. 

[Blue blood]

8 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

I agree mistakes have been made, specifically the amount the money we paid for Breo and Gallagher. I'm not saying either has made up for their price tag for scoring a couple of goals, it hasn't been good enough. With Breo though, he's still 21. We will get our moneys worth in the next couple of seasons, we've seen a good improvement already and still plenty of work to do.

Again, not trying to shoot you down but profoundly disagree! How are we guaranteed our money back/a justified fee with Bereton? I agree it's certainly possible given his age but it's far from certain. For starters look at how many other players his age haven't made it from similar positions. Look at his form since he has come back. Look at his performances for the first two years. Your basing the optimism on a small window of form. And fwiw I think that window of form whilst good, looked better than it was as it came after two years of utter ineptness. Contrast his performance levels with other forwards who have gone for £6-7 million in the championship, and you see he has a way to go before we are guaranteed our money back.   

8 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

TM has failed to bring in a leader. Money that we have spent has been on players for the future. Maybe money could have been spent on a leader rather than young lads who we have to wait a couple of seasons for in order for them to develop. But its difficult bringing in leaders on loan so we've had to resort to bringing in experience players on a free. 

Hang on a sec, I think there's a few issues here. Firstly we really shouldn't be spending money on young lads who take a few seasons to develop. Yes, they should have potential to improve, (perhaps this is what you meant) but to say they need to be able to contribute immediately. We can't afford to have players we have to wait 2 years plus to contribute. 

As for bringing leaders in, as I have said before, leaders can be younger or any age. One example under Hughes we had a whole team full of leaders, costing different levels of money to bring in, and at a range of ages. I don't see why we have to bring leaders in on loan or why players on a free can't necessarily have this quality. It sounds to me like made up excuses as to why TM doesn't have any leaders in the dressing room.     

8 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

We have gone from hoofing the ball up to DG last season to playing some really nice fast attacking football this year. To me this shows that we are adapting and improving. I am in NO WAY comparing TM to Klopp or Rovers to Liverpool, but what was the reason Elliot came here, because of our new attacking style of football similar to Lpools and because of everyone's respect for what he did with Tosin last year. Look at Liverpool now though, hampered at the back with injuries and because of this, confidence lacks and goals at the other end have dried up. Similar to Rovers in a way. You have to remember we've only been playing this new style of football with 4-3-3 since August. Liverpool have been playing that way for years and have the money to fix their defence. I know we don't have the money to do so, but I would rather go up as a team that dominates in the championship (which still can happen this season) like how Wolves or Leeds did. I know we don't have the money but I believe we have the attacking players to do this. I wouldn't want to go up like Huddersfield did, undeserved, rubbish football, scraped staying up straight back down. I want this club to establish itself again. If we were to get promoted I don't think we should go back to playing Big Sam football with the players we've got, I just don't think it would work. 

This so called attractive football you talk about is football snobbery. You get a football style that suits your circumstances - players/budget etc. To say this attractive football is better and more successful is a complete myth because we aren't improving! We're in a worse position than last season when we were "hoofing it up to Graham." This nice football is not seeing us dominate the championship. If anything we have regressed. Do you genuinely think we are going to dominate the championship this season - given we haven't (or have only once) beaten a team above us and are firmly midtable? Again, there's zero evidence for such an assertion. 

Equally to the point that this attacking football is more successful is, to put it bluntly horse manure. You mention Wolves and Leeds,  but look how many clubs Warnock has got promoted with a different style? Also the idea that straight back down happens if you play this "rubbish" football is news to every club Big Sam has kept up, Burnley, and a tad surprising to Norwich and their "nice" brand of football. It really is a myth that there's only one way to be successful playing football.  It's simply not true. 

 Also the idea you wouldn't want to go up playing rubbish football, that you would put style ahead of success - man we really disagree about the point of football. Surely winning is more important than fitting than playing eye catching football. And this is before we even consider the reality of what is possible with the resources that we have.    

I'm not even arguing the issue as to whether our football currently is attractive! 

8 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

My optimism is ambitious but why can't we look forward to this young, exciting team we have. It's not come yet, but we have had glimpses of it which haven't been helped with a dodgy defence and injuries. I would rather be optimistic about this team not playing so well to getting rid ruining what has been built and going back to the days of Venky's hiring a yes man.

The reason for the dodgy defence and injuries is in part due to the chap you are championing! He's the one who has assembled a defence of crocks. He's the one who can't organise a defence. He'#s the one who is on record saying we are building from attack rather than defense. The problems you highlight are because of said manager. 

Also what has been built? A mid-table team is hardly a huge revolution. And after three years being still a mid-table team, the achievement pales even more. And that's not even considering his half a season evaluation and League 1 chance to start the rebuild! As what has been built it's pretty minimal imo, and certainly no more than the mid-Bowyer tenure. 

As for Venkys hiring yes men, and boy do I hate Venkys, the idea that the only options are TM or an incompetent also isn't true. There are other options as well. Add in the fact that TM is hardly a rebel with regards to Venkys whatsoever, so I don't buy that the only way is TM or a stooge of Venkys.  

8 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

Dack has already put pen to paper which TM had a big part to play in. Armstrong still has till the end of next season, he may sign a new contract if we're looking likely to get promoted next season. Rothwell, Nyambe and Holtby I believe will sign again when things improve. The likes of Bell, Evans, Williams and Bennett are all dead weight and should be released. 

We don't look likely to go up so I can't see Armstrong signing. We don't look like we will improve - in fact the last three seasons show mid-table is where we will be, so how can you be so sure that things will improve encouraging the players to sign? On that even if said improvement - of which there is little evidence for - happens, what makes you think the selfish lot that are footballers won't look for a better deal? It's an optimism not born out of reality. 

Agree about the deadweights though!  

8 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

I don't believe TM is a master recruiter. We aren't a club with the money to attract top players so who can we bring in instead? Young, talented players who are here to develop themselves (Elliot and Branthwaite). Neither would have joined if it wasn;t for TM. Klopp would not allowed Elliot to go to any random club and neither would have Ancelotti. 

There seems to be some shifted goal posts here. I've never said that we have the dosh to attract top players. But to suggest we can only build a club on loans is a terrible idea. Also those aren't the only two options either - free transfers, buying shrewdly for small fees, as well as utilising the loan market and what you have are all part of creating a good team. Let's not rewrite history and say TM hasn't been able to buy players and can solely has to rely on loans. That's not the case evidenced by the transfers over the last few years. 

 Also whilst they may not allow them to any random club, i think there's a fair few they would have leant them to. Hard to say it was TM or bust - either for or against - with regards to loans without knowing more.   

8 minutes ago, jasprovers said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect yours, I enjoy a debate. Maybe I am delirious and believe that this club is in a good position under TM. The memory of Owen Coyle and Lambert conning this club out of money still lives fresh in my memories. 

I truly believe he has the best interests of the club at heart. 

Yeah Coyle and Lambert weren't good. But that's not the only alternative. And even then it's not like TM is streets ahead of them even if he's better. It looks as though he has run his course, and three years into the championship later we're not vastly better off. I think his time is up. 

As for best interests - eh, his comments, appointing his mate as his boss, and the Boro charity fund all make me doubt that this is the case. 

[frosty]

50 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Look at how long Leeds were down to Championship

And what was the trigger for them becoming a promotion challenging team almost overnight and then getting promoted? Binning the managers that had them finishing about 13th every year and pushing the boat out for an excellent one.

I don't want to have to wait 15 years for that like they had to.......

[perthblue02]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

and Forest are still down here in this league. A team Clough won 2 European cups with.

No wonder they went down in 93 , that team that won the European cup in 1980 would have been in their Late 30's, and 40's 

Edited January 18, 2021 by perthblue02

[Mercer]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

We arent in a mess at all. Mowbray has put a proper football infrastructure in place, proper football recruitment and Scouting departments in place plus data analysis department. 

4 years of mediocrity? Really? Mowbray got us up at the 1st attempt from league 1 despite you want him out.  

We are in a mess.

Financially, we've lost something like £15million / season on average since V's took over and IMO, never really threatened to get back to the PL.

You say "Mowbray has put a proper football infrastructure in place, proper football recruitment and Scouting departments in place plus data analysis department" - well what feckin good has it done? 

YES, four years of mediocrity.

As @J*Bposted:

24 game update:

18/19: 31 points, 8 off play offs  

19/20: 36 points, 3 off play offs

 20/21: 33 points, 7 off play offs (6th place also have game in hand)

Statistics  don't lie

I know what i see with my eyes (maybe Mowbray needs to go to Specsavers) - some of our football is dire.  IMO, Mowbray's stuff about being a possession based, progressive, attacking team is a myth, just bullsh1t for the owners and his band of happy clappers. 

Think Mowbray is right, we are on a journey - sadly, IMO a journey to nowhere at best and at worse, a drift downwards to the bottom of the sea bed

Mowbray did get us up at 1st attempt from League 1 but he took us down in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mowbray said at Blues back in Feb 2019 that he was appointed to keep the club up in the Championship.  HE FAILED.   

O'Neill and Warnock were appointed by Stoke and Middlesbrough last season to keep them in the Championship.  THEY SUCCEEDED.  Both clubs are now better placed in the Championship.  No evolution or slow build there - they are good managers, far better than Mowbray IMO, who don't bullsh1t and GET RESULTS. 

We were the best reourced club in League 1 but, IMO, we unconvincingly limped home behind the mighty Wigan.

Can I see progress, no, can I see performances, no, can I see results, no.

If you think Mowbray is the answer then only God knows what the question is!!!

Edited January 18, 2021 by Mercer

[RoversClitheroe]

39 minutes ago, Mercer said:

We are in a mess.

Financially, we've lost something like £15million / season on average since V's took over and IMO, never really threatened to get back to the PL.

You say "Mowbray has put a proper football infrastructure in place, proper football recruitment and Scouting departments in place plus data analysis department" - well what feckin good has it done? 

YES, four years of mediocrity.

As @J*Bposted:

24 game update:

18/19: 31 points, 8 off play offs  

19/20: 36 points, 3 off play offs

 20/21: 33 points, 7 off play offs (6th place also have game in hand)

Statistics  don't lie

I know what i see with my eyes (maybe Mowbray needs to go to Specsavers) - some of our football is dire.  IMO, Mowbray's stuff about being a possession based, progressive, attacking team is a myth, just bullsh1t for the owners and his band of happy clappers. 

Think Mowbray is right, we are on a journey - sadly, IMO a journey to nowhere at best and at worse, a drift downwards to the bottom of the sea bed

Mowbray did get us up at 1st attempt from League 1 but he took us down in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mowbray said at Blues back in Feb 2019 that he was appointed to keep the club up in the Championship.  HE FAILED.   

O'Neill and Warnock were appointed by Stoke and Middlesbrough last season to keep them in the Championship.  THEY SUCCEEDED.  Both clubs are now better placed in the Championship.  No evolution or slow build there - they are good managers, far better than Mowbray IMO, who don't bullsh1t and GET RESULTS. 

We were the best reourced club in League 1 but, IMO, we unconvincingly limped home behind the mighty Wigan.

Can I see progress, no, can I see performances, no, can I see results, no.

If you think Mowbray is the answer then only God knows what the question is!!!

Let's not forget Barnsley new manager who's doing a fantastic job. 

All the people saying "Well if Mowbray went who would you replace him with" it's an absolutely awful counter argument. 

Bet those asking for that had no idea who the Reading or Barnsley managers were beforehand.

[Mashed Potatoes]

42 minutes ago, Mercer said:

We are in a mess.

Financially, we've lost something like £15million / season on average since V's took over and IMO, never really threatened to get back to the PL.

You say "Mowbray has put a proper football infrastructure in place, proper football recruitment and Scouting departments in place plus data analysis department" - well what feckin good has it done? 

YES, four years of mediocrity.

As @J*Bposted:

24 game update:

18/19: 31 points, 8 off play offs  

19/20: 36 points, 3 off play offs

 20/21: 33 points, 7 off play offs (6th place also have game in hand)

Statistics  don't lie

I know what i see with my eyes (maybe Mowbray needs to go to Specsavers) - some of our football is dire.  IMO, Mowbray's stuff about being a possession based, progressive, attacking team is a myth, just bullsh1t for the owners and his band of happy clappers. 

Think Mowbray is right, we are on a journey - sadly, IMO a journey to nowhere at best and at worse, a drift downwards to the bottom of the sea bed

Mowbray did get us up at 1st attempt from League 1 but he took us down in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mowbray said at Blues back in Feb 2019 that he was appointed to keep the club up in the Championship.  HE FAILED.   

O'Neill and Warnock were appointed by Stoke and Middlesbrough last season to keep them in the Championship.  THEY SUCCEEDED.  Both clubs are now better placed in the Championship.  No evolution or slow build there - they are good managers, far better than Mowbray IMO, who don't bullsh1t and GET RESULTS. 

We were the best reourced club in League 1 but, IMO, we unconvincingly limped home behind the mighty Wigan.

Can I see progress, no, can I see performances, no, can I see results, no.

If you think Mowbray is the answer then only God knows what the question is!!!

How did we "unconvincingly" limp home in Division 1 - we got club record numbers for points and wins.

Mowbray didn't take us down with 22 points from 15 games - Coyle did with 29 points from 31 games.

If Mowbray is so bad why do you keep placing bets on his team to win ?

[Mashed Potatoes]

4 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Let's not forget Barnsley new manager who's doing a fantastic job. 

All the people saying "Well if Mowbray went who would you replace him with" it's an absolutely awful counter argument. 

Bet those asking for that had no idea who the Reading or Barnsley managers were beforehand.

Who do you think there is at Ewood Park who would have heard of the managers at Barnsley and Reading ?