Tony Mowbray Discussion

[AllRoverAsia]

2 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Coyle was a crap manager but at least it didn't last long.  Mowbray is a crap manager but also a liar and it's lasted years. Kean turned fan against fan. Mowbray is now doing the same. I would say he's as bad as kean and Coyle in different ways 

Coyle is stigmatised by his Burnley connection plus being a very poor manager and paying little attention to defence. Reminds me of someone else.

He wasn't at Rovers long enough to exert any real 'control' over the Club and was binned as soon as the Vs actually realised we were headed to relegation. The one Mowbray himself admits he failed to save us from.

Kean was a lapdog for those who 'ran' the Club at that time.

Mowbary with his cohorts, appointed by Mowbary, have ingrained themselves into the Ewood woodwork and are untouchables.

It's like comparing a single dog shit with piles of turd to compare Coyle with Kean and Mowbray on the long term damage to the Club.

And yet even yesterday I read on this MB that Mowbray still has credit in the Bank!

Some just never ever learn.

[Admiral Nelsen]

1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

Hi get that none of us are saying either are good, more like a debate as to which is worse a punch in the face or kick in the balls. 

It's a good point that you make. With the same squad TM was doing a bit better. And that points to him being a little stronger in terms of ability. 

My counter would be two fold. Firstly his character and actions away from the pitch are FAR worse. Trying to sell the training ground - unforgivable. Suggesting Rovers fans were entitled due to remembering 1995 - insulting. Coyle also didn't give contracts to his mates kids and the like either. Off the pitch, far, far worse which more than undermines him being a bit better in ability (which I tend to agree with just.) 

Secondly it's a just/very marginally better. For starters TM still got us relegated. Secondly the limited number of games, as we saw to our cost this season, probably helps TM in comparison as there was less chance of the obligatory death spiral (hypothetical I know). Also Coyle came into an utter mess, he didn't even get a load of his recruits in till towards the end of the window. It was a far from easy start. To use an analogy its easier to come in part way through cleaning up a mess. Then of course there is this season. To be three points better off with a shed load of advantages is absymal. Utterly appalling and just as unimpressive in its own way. 

To be fair I doubt Coyle would have done as well as the previous 2 seasons, although with that budget and team I think he might still have got us up.  but overall I think TM has shown plenty of ineptitude as a manager and blows Coyle away with his off field antics. 

 

To be honest, I'm deliberately leaving the subject of the training ground/academy to one side. If it turns out that Mowbray was somehow involved in trying to sell off club assets for personal gain, or the personal gain of others, then that clearly changes things and I'd have no problem agreeing with you about his character. There are questions to answer on that front (certainly from Waggott), and I'm pleased that it's not going ahead, but I don't know enough about Mowbray's role in the whole affair to to say that he was corrupt or acting against the interests of the club. Happy to be set straight on that though. 

 

On the interviews, I'd guess that I might be in a minority here, but I never saw any of Mowbray's comments as overly offensive or disrespectful to the club or the fans. Maybe a little, but on a scale from 0 to Bradley Orr, it was pretty small beer in my opinion. I'd bet we could get a collection of quotes from Sam and Hughes, maybe even Souness which could be interpreted as talking the club down just a little bit. He's been here for a good while now, and has said plenty of very complementary things about the club & its history too, so for me at least I've not been that bothered about things that he's said in interviews. 

 

Anyway, I accept that the above is a matter of opinion, but I really disagree when it comes to comparing their results record. It's true that this year we only ended up with three points more than the relegation season (which I agree is unacceptable) but this is only after taking the points we gained under Mowbray into account! Had we continued with Coyle, picking up less than a point a game as we were, that would've put us on 43 points at the end of the year. Mowbray did still take us down, but the form was pretty good - only lost 3 times to Coyle's 16. It's quite ironic actually that we were at our best under Mowbray when he was forced to be pragmatic. He did a good job initially of setting us up properly, making us harder to beat, compared to how disorganised we were in the months before he took over.

 

I'll leave it there before I start talking myself into wanting to keep Mowbray! This is the summer that he should've gone, and I'd be very surprised if he turns it around from here. But Coyle was the absolute worst.

Well, not the absolute worst, we know who that was, but you know what I mean. 

[Gav]

Does anyone actually have a shred of evidence that Tony Mowbray played any part in the proposed selling off at Brockhall? As that fact alone seems to have propelled him from a manager past his sell by date, to scum, as someone posted last night? 

Its a genuine question as I'm not up to speed, other than the plans have been shelved and it was the Chairman who was pushing this, but its the owners ultimately that are to blame, they own the club and land, not Waggot.

Its not unusual for clubs looking to raise cash to sell the training grounds, or part of them, I don't agree we need to sell ours just to make that clear. Sheff Wednesday have just been relegated due for dodgy dealing around training ground sales and where that money went, that was the owner not the manager/managers.

If Mowbray has played a part and was due to benefit financially that changes everything, but if thats not the case then he's just another manager past his sell by date in my book.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Gav

[Blue blood]

20 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

To be honest, I'm deliberately leaving the subject of the training ground/academy to one side. If it turns out that Mowbray was somehow involved in trying to sell off club assets for personal gain, or the personal gain of others, then that clearly changes things and I'd have no problem agreeing with you about his character. There are questions to answer on that front (certainly from Waggott), and I'm pleased that it's not going ahead, but I don't know enough about Mowbray's role in the whole affair to to say that he was corrupt or acting against the interests of the club. Happy to be set straight on that though. 

 

On the interviews, I'd guess that I might be in a minority here, but I never saw any of Mowbray's comments as overly offensive or disrespectful to the club or the fans. Maybe a little, but on a scale from 0 to Bradley Orr, it was pretty small beer in my opinion. I'd bet we could get a collection of quotes from Sam and Hughes, maybe even Souness which could be interpreted as talking the club down just a little bit. He's been here for a good while now, and has said plenty of very complementary things about the club & its history too, so for me at least I've not been that bothered about things that he's said in interviews. 

 

Anyway, I accept that the above is a matter of opinion, but I really disagree when it comes to comparing their results record. It's true that this year we only ended up with three points more than the relegation season (which I agree is unacceptable) but this is only after taking the points we gained under Mowbray into account! Had we continued with Coyle, picking up less than a point a game as we were, that would've put us on 43 points at the end of the year. Mowbray did still take us down, but the form was pretty good - only lost 3 times to Coyle's 16. It's quite ironic actually that we were at our best under Mowbray when he was forced to be pragmatic. He did a good job initially of setting us up properly, making us harder to beat, compared to how disorganised we were in the months before he took over.

 

I'll leave it there before I start talking myself into wanting to keep Mowbray! This is the summer that he should've gone, and I'd be very surprised if he turns it around from here. But Coyle was the absolute worst.

Well, not the absolute worst, we know who that was, but you know what I mean. 

Thanks for a very well reasoned reply. Appreciate there is a lot of opinion and conjecture in this although fwiw given his clout at the club I find it impossible to think he didn't know of and at least tacitly approve of the plans. (Plus the Coventrio is a huge coincidence otherwise too!)

 

Where I really take issue is the all managers comments can be seen as talking us down. There is a huge difference between the reality changing BS the current incumbents spouts and previous managers talking us down a bit. Not under Souness, Hughes, Ince or any manager has anyone ever said the fans are measuring against winning the PL. It's an utter lie to discredit fans. No manager has ever said we need to acclimatise to the championship as a league one outfit. No manager has ever effectively said the previous 3 years don't count. No manager has stated as many factual inaccuracies (deliberately) as him. There's a huge difference between what TM is doing and what others have done. It's a bit like comparing someone who goes a couple of miles over the speed limit with someone drink driving along the pavement. 

As you say though it's probably best to leave it here before I start to forget Coyle was utterly useless too. It's a poor do that the competition between the two is so fierce for who is worse and even sadder than neither make the top spot. And all in the last 10 years! Makes me amazed we still have any fans left.

[AllRoverAsia]

Remember those games as a kid when you joined up the dots to make a picture before progressing on to more and more difficult jigsaw puzzles.

The Ewood story is like a dot picture that a 5 year old could finish in a couple of minutes.

[Boroblue]

Thanks Gav and Admiral for well thought out and reasoned opinions. While it is obvious from previous posts I have a low opinion of Mowbray I can still appreciate and reflect on alternative views.

In terms of the Brockhall if this were an isolated incident of infrastructure sale then yes I could agree that it is possible that Mowbray had no knowledge but unfortunately the three of them have prior for this sort of dealing. I suppose I’m saying it’s guilt by association.

One of the things we all agree on is we want the best for Rovers. I can find no case for that sale which would support this goal.

I was once  at a Rovers U23 game  at Norwich and was sat amongst the parents. All of them were clear that Mowbray hated the academy and wanted to dismantle it and use the money for the first team. They also felt the academy graduates would struggle to get first team opportunities because Mowbray did not want the academy to be seen as successful. I do appreciate these are only opinions but every opinion has at its base an element of fact particularly when it’s shared by a group.

I also would appreciate Mowbray complaints about Rovers but he’s had money, time and facilities that most championship managers only dream of. Yet none of its good enough. I can’t wait to see where he ends up next because he has in my opinion totally wasted a fantastic opportunity to achieve any of the goals a professional manager should have.

Mowbray fulfills the criteria for a bad workman blaming his tools

[TruRover]

Unfortunately, now the season is over, and we’re still hearing no noises whatsoever about TM leaving for me clearly shows that we are stuck with him. Disaster. 

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, Gav said:

Does anyone actually have a shred of evidence that Tony Mowbray played any part in the proposed selling off at Brockhall?

Wake up Gav, why do you think we we training on an already knackered pitch in the middle of winter in atrocious conditions?

Of course Mowbray was instrumental in it just as much as the other two.

They tried (and failed) to pull off the same sort of scam at Coventry as well. You can't pin that on Venky's.

[USABlue]

23 hours ago, PeteJD13 said:

to be honest i think if he was sacked i don't think he'd expect it anyway he's in complete denial atm

He will be here next season.  Bradfords managers lost 6 out of 7 GONE boom, pulled the plug.  Venkies take heed.  I can't stand him being here.  I am tempted to switch my loyalties back to Stanley who I watched home and away at the time of their rebirth in 68.  I was too young for my parents to allow me to go to Rovers alone.  Stanley was ok.  First Rovers mstch I was 6 and was hooked.  Stanley I was 10, I was 13 before I was allowed to go watch Rovers again.

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

Thanks for a very well reasoned reply. Appreciate there is a lot of opinion and conjecture in this although fwiw given his clout at the club I find it impossible to think he didn't know of and at least tacitly approve of the plans. (Plus the Coventrio is a huge coincidence otherwise too!)

 

Where I really take issue is the all managers comments can be seen as talking us down. There is a huge difference between the reality changing BS the current incumbents spouts and previous managers talking us down a bit. Not under Souness, Hughes, Ince or any manager has anyone ever said the fans are measuring against winning the PL. It's an utter lie to discredit fans. No manager has ever said we need to acclimatise to the championship as a league one outfit. No manager has ever effectively said the previous 3 years don't count. No manager has stated as many factual inaccuracies (deliberately) as him. There's a huge difference between what TM is doing and what others have done. It's a bit like comparing someone who goes a couple of miles over the speed limit with someone drink driving along the pavement. 

As you say though it's probably best to leave it here before I start to forget Coyle was utterly useless too. It's a poor do that the competition between the two is so fierce for who is worse and even sadder than neither make the top spot. And all in the last 10 years! Makes me amazed we still have any fans left.

Great post. No-one has ever held the view that we needed to acclimatise in the Championship because we were relegated when arguably we shouldn't have been.

It's just something Mowbray has invented in the last few months to excuse his own abysmal performance.

[Blue blood]

7 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Wake up Gav, why do you think we we training on an already knackered pitch in the middle of winter in atrocious conditions?

Of course Mowbray was instrumental in it just as much as the other two.

They tried (and failed) to pull off the same sort of scam at Coventry as well. You can't pin that on Venky's.

Factor in how he pulls the strings on everything, including his own boss. Bit odd if he then has no say in this after that kind of clout.  

Then there's the fact that even if it wasn't his plan he could have opposed it or the manner in which it was undertaken (i.e. sneaking it through.) 

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, Blue blood said:

Factor in how he pulls the strings on everything, including his own boss. Bit odd if he then has no say in this after that kind of clout.  

Then there's the fact that even if it wasn't his plan he could have opposed it or the manner in which it was undertaken (i.e. sneaking it through.) 

Exactly.

Can't believe some people are still falling for the nice but dim Uncle Tony jumpers for goalposts routine.

You could just about forgive him for installing his own boss IF the owners were daft enough to suggest it.

However the way Waggott has subsequently defended Mowbray to the hilt despite him pissing money away like water and producing abysmal results and then the three of them all trying to pull off  the same stunt as at Coventry suggests there is something rather more sinister afoot.

[Bigdoggsteel]

At what point do we know 100% he is staying? 

[Boroblue]

I have no inside knowledge but I believe that Oldham, Paul and Mercer are right and that the axe will fall. There are to many coincidences for something not happening. Brockhall and it’s abandonment, contracts not being renewed for Mowbray old boys, we all know he would have renewed them. India have stopped direct communication.

Add into this Phillpl ( I think) who said there were rumours in India of a sale. Strangely this was supported on another message board but from an internal source.Both confirmed IPL owners.

Maybe I just want it to be true but the only person talking like he’s in for the duration is Mowbray no one else.No confirmation from the heirarchy just silence. I still believe Mowbray is making a sales pitch both to our owners and any prospective future employers out there.

[Gav]

38 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Wake up Gav, why do you think we we training on an already knackered pitch in the middle of winter in atrocious conditions?

I'm still not following what any of that has to do with selling Brockhall Rev and Mowbray being involved? Other than the pitch at Ewood has undersoil heating and Brockhall doesn't.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Gav

[Blue blood]

20 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Exactly.

Can't believe some people are still falling for the nice but dim Uncle Tony jumpers for goalposts routine.

You could just about forgive him for installing his own boss IF the owners were daft enough to suggest it.

However the way Waggott has subsequently defended Mowbray to the hilt despite him pissing money away like water and producing abysmal results and then the three of them all trying to pull off  the same stunt as at Coventry suggests there is something rather more sinister afoot.

Any CEO who let a manager continue with the run we had - or even part of it - clearly isn't fit for the job. Even if he didn't have the power to sack him he should have been pressuring the owners to do so. 

Sinister is the word. One thing to add to that is that we have so much form for allowing dodgy goings on to occur. In fact it's been the norm under Venkys. 

[Exiled_Rover]

13 minutes ago, Boroblue said:

I have no inside knowledge but I believe that Oldham, Paul and Mercer are right and that the axe will fall. There are to many coincidences for something not happening. Brockhall and it’s abandonment, contracts not being renewed for Mowbray old boys, we all know he would have renewed them. India have stopped direct communication.

Add into this Phillpl ( I think) who said there were rumours in India of a sale. Strangely this was supported on another message board but from an internal source.Both confirmed IPL owners.

Maybe I just want it to be true but the only person talking like he’s in for the duration is Mowbray no one else.No confirmation from the heirarchy just silence. I still believe Mowbray is making a sales pitch both to our owners and any prospective future employers out there.

What's this rumour about a sale?

[Boroblue]

That Venkies are looking to sell all or part of the club to an Indian IPL owner.

[riverholmes]

It's interesting to look back at Mowbray's heyday as West Brom manager, the season they won promotion from Championship, in 2007/08, having lost out in the play offs the previous year. That season, West Brom lost key first team players like Koumas, Ellington, Curtis Davies and McShane. However, with Robert Koren, Zoltan Gera and Jonathan Greening in midfield and some new additions, they were able to mount a successful league campaign and reach the semi-finals of the FA Cup. Presumably, they were playing 5-3-2 or 4-4-2, back in those days.

It's interesting to have a look at the list of Mowbray signings for West Brom that year. Some seemed to have been flops - such as Pele and Leon Barnett but some successful signings, like Brunt, Morrison, Hoefkens, Ishmael Miller and, I believe, Teixeira, did well, from what I read.

I find it interesting that Mowbray inherited and then assembled a squad of a mix of players from across Europe. They had Robert Koren, Zoltan Gera, Roman Bednar, providing technical ability, alongside players like Greening and Morrison. Whilst foreign players don't guarantee ability, that market has always been a source of less expensive but technically capable players. It makes me wonder why Mowbray has, apparently, abandoned that route, barring the keepers we've brought in lately. (I don't know the rules, but I'm guessing in the post-EU days, it will be harder?).

"West Bromwich Albion 4 Bristol City 1: Bednar fires Albion to the summit" - match team from the Independent online report, 27 December 2007, the season West Brom, led by Mowbray, won the Championship, with Pulis' Stoke finishing second:

West Bromwich Albion (4-4-2): Kiely; Hoefkens, Pele, Cesar, Robinson; Gera, Greening, Koren, Morrison (Beattie, 80); Bednar (Miller, 70), Phillips (Albrechtsen, 85). Substitutes not used: Steele (gk), Barnett, Beattie, Albrechtsen.

West Brom signings 2007/08 (Wikipedia):

• Shelton Martis – Hibernian, £50,000, 2 July 2007.^[17]
• Craig Beattie – Celtic, £1,250,000, 3 July 2007^[18]
• Filipe Teixeira – Académica, £600,000, 17 July 2007^[19]
• Leon Barnett – Luton Town, £2,500,000, 26 July 2007^[20]
• Tininho – Beira-Mar, £230,000, 31 July 2007^[21]
• Boštjan Cesar – Marseille, season loan, 7 August 2007^[22]
• Carl Hoefkens – Stoke City, £750,000, 7 August 2007^[23]
• James Morrison – Middlesbrough, £1,500,000, 7 August 2007^[24]
• Pelé – Southampton, £1,000,000, 9 August 2007^[25]
• Chris Brunt – Sheffield Wednesday, £3,000,000,15 August 2007^[26]
• Bartosz Ślusarski – Dyskobolia Grodzisk
• Michal Daněk – Viktoria Plzeň, loan
• Roman Bednář – Hearts, loan
• Ishmael Miller – Manchester City

 

[Parsonblue]

52 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Wake up Gav, why do you think we we training on an already knackered pitch in the middle of winter in atrocious conditions?

Of course Mowbray was instrumental in it just as much as the other two.

They tried (and failed) to pull off the same sort of scam at Coventry as well. You can't pin that on Venky's.

I'm sorry Rev but I simply don't believe that the owners were not involved in the attempt to sell the training ground.  It couldn't be sold without their approval or knowledge.  It's fantasy to believe otherwise imo.

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

2 minutes ago, Boroblue said:

That Venkies are looking to sell all or part of the club to an Indian IPL owner.

Frying pan, fire. 

 

[roversfan99]

19 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

At what point do we know 100% he is staying? 

From now until either a sudden press release down the line or his contract expires.

Our absent owners clearly dont consider there to be a question regarding the manager, so he presumably wont be getting a dreaded vote of confidence either. He will just continue indefinitely.

[RoversClitheroe]

26 minutes ago, Boroblue said:

Strangely this was supported on another message board but from an internal source.Both confirmed IPL owners.

Where was the other message board rumour?

[Mercer]

49 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Factor in how he pulls the strings on everything, including his own boss. Bit odd if he then has no say in this after that kind of clout.  

Then there's the fact that even if it wasn't his plan he could have opposed it or the manner in which it was undertaken (i.e. sneaking it through.) 

Nail on head.

Personally, I have zero trust in either Waggott or Mowbray.

I think Waggott showed his colours a long time ago when he 'represented' Andy Cole in his move to Newcastle and seemingly pocketed Cole's £30k signing on fee.  I would love the two of them to debate that one in a telephone box! 

[Boroblue]

3 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Where was the other message board rumour?

Roversfans