Tony Mowbray Discussion

[47er]

7 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I read it that the bonus was reduced if we were in a lower league as well. Unusual to have contingency plans in place on bonuses if we're in league one when we were a Premier League club, but it certainly wasn't a bonus for being relegated.

This is true, it wasn't a reward or an inducement but what was it?

[47er]

9 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

He wasn't offered a bonus payment to take the club to the Championship and League 1. 

No, he was offered a bonus if he achieved it though and got it I assume.

[Wheelton Blue]

24 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Nobody is praising them for having to put money in, but it's better than they have funded him a bit, but not very much. He has found some gems; Dack, Armstrong and Brereton are arguably the best attacking players we have had in the championship. 

Perhaps we're at cross purposes.

The point I was trying to make was in response to the previous poster over his assertion that Mowbray has as 'excellent' record of player purchases.

If indeed we are to credit Mowbray for Brereton et al - players who cost a lot of money - then by definition we should also credit the owners for affording the expenditure.

The irony here is that the poster in question habitually criticises the owners, but yet does not credit them for their part in those signings. He's simply contradicted himself.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Wheelton Blue

[Armchair supporter supremo]

God Mowbray and his cronies must pish their sides reading some of the stuff (which im certain they will do, even if just once in a while) 

 

divide and conquer.... it's what kep Kean in his job long enough for the club to fall into chaos (which its still to come back from) and it's still the same tactic used now only in a more subtle way(most of the time) 

[47er]

2 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

Again someone hasn’t read my post properly!

At least he read it! I'm still waiting for you to reply to my post about Kean's contract and bonuses for relegation.

You had plenty to say before!

[RoversClitheroe]

4 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Absolutely spot on.

Brereton was a position we didn't need at all, we were screaming for a spread of that £7m across the whole squad so it wasnt so disproportionately unbalanced.

It took 2 season for Breo to be a good signing (who is set to be out of contract)

Whilst Mowbray also wasted Gallagher and played him out of position constantly.

Mowbray has been well below average in the transfer market.

Genuinely can't believe this didn't spark more debate.

People only concentrated on one part but it creates so many facets of conversation.

[Miker]

3 hours ago, Wheelton Blue said:

Perhaps we're at cross purposes.

The point I was trying to make was in response to the previous poster over his assertion that Mowbray has as 'excellent' record of player purchases.

If indeed we are to credit Mowbray for Brereton et al - players who cost a lot of money - then by definition we should also credit the owners for affording the expenditure.

The irony here is that the poster in question habitually criticises the owners, but yet does not credit them for their part in those signings. He's simply contradicted himself.

Everyone on here contradicts themselves. Most people are just looking for someone to blame for where we are now, so its either anti-Venkys or anti-Mowbray.

The reality is that Venkys stuffed around with Kean at the start of their reign and then put their faith in Bowyer for too long. With the parachute money pissed away, we are just an average Championship club now. The investment in the squad from Venkys since then has been good and Mowbray has done an adequate job with limited resources.

We are going to be stuck in this division for a while longer unless we have a miracle season to get promoted or slowly build up a young, exciting squad like Brentford.

[Upside Down]

On 22/11/2021 at 12:06, tomphil said:

I never saw Beamo play but remember the chant well in fact it went on into the early 2000's.  

Terrace humour, whatever happened to it.

I can still remember people shouting BEAMO whenever someone boomed it over the bar. I always wondered what that was all about. 

 

 

[Upside Down]

16 hours ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

I think we have to take things like size of fee/importance of player into account when judging his transfer record. Nobody was bothered with Sparky signing the Berners, Vogels and Rigters of this world because because when we needed to spend the budget on a new striker, he always delivered in spades.

 

This actually makes it a tricky task to judge Mowbray's record. There are some players who were brought as (relatively) low cost loans, but need to be judged as pretty important failures because they filled important roles and didn't cut the mustard (e.g. Walton, Douglas). Others have eventually paid dividends, but only in time and there's an argument that the eventual Brilliant success of Ayala and Brereton has come 12 months too late for a promotion push. So even looking at Brereton as an investment which has paid off, it's not as simple as just saying that he's been a great signing because of the time that we've needed to wait for him to get to that level.

 

At the same time, trying to take everything together, I really don't think that Mowbray's transfer record is something to hold against him. Quite the opposite actually. There are the obvious examples of Dack, Armstrong, Kaminski et al, but there are plenty of others that you'd have as successes given either how much we paid, or what we needed at a certain point in time. Whilst we wouldn't take any of them now, the likes of Smallwood, P. Downing, Samuel, Nuttall, Payne & Antonsson all played significant roles in getting us up first time and were signed for buttons. More recently, there have been others who were low-risk signings who improved us whilst admittedly not doing it consistently enough to be classed as a Dack/Armstrong level success (e.g. Holtby, Rothwell, 1st. season S. Downing). A handful of these low-risk signings haven't worked out, for whatever reason, but the success of Dolan should eventually make up for a dozen Sam Harts. 

 

Ultimately, I think the case against Mowbray as manager begins and ends with his ability to get the most out of the players available to him. The squad we had last year was, according to plenty on here (myself included) was good enough to finish in the top 6 - so the issue for me isn't really recruitment, even if it's that is bit of a complex picture. The squad was also made up of plenty of young players & academy graduates, so neither is the issue that Mowbray doesn't trust youth as others have suggested elsewhere. For me it just boils down to not getting the results that we should get consistently enough, most else is just noise. 

Excellent. People really do get carried away with the Tony Mowbray bashing. He's not been that bad really.

Is he the man to take us forward? 

I would say no. He’s taken things as far as he can and although he's made some great signings the only way we will stand a chance of keeping hold of any of them is if we are seriously challenging for a top four finish at the very least.

I think it's time to roll the dice at the end of the season, unless of course we go up.

[Upside Down]

11 hours ago, JacknOry said:

Played a blinder? Are you on mind-altering drugs?

 

I actually LOLd at this.

[LeftWinger]

11 hours ago, 47er said:

No, he was offered a bonus if he achieved it though and got it I assume.

That's not the same though is it.

He would have received a higher bonus had the club been in the higher division.

Not much of an incentive to get relegated - receiving a lower bonus.

[tomphil]

What are they even getting bonuses for unless they are hitting a target ?

[Ulrich]

13 minutes ago, tomphil said:

What are they even getting bonuses for unless they are hitting a target ?

These days football players want a bonus for tying their shoe laces. Wages just aren't enough for them.

[Spartakfenni]

16 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Sorry, couldn't disagree more, there must be tens of players at all levels throughout the Leagues who could run about a bit and chip in the odd goal without costing £5m and costing £20k p.w. in wages.

Or anywhere near that. If you were debating buying him today you'd struggle to make a case out for paying £500k for him.

Revidge how do you know he’s on 20k p.w. He’s shown what he can do this season when he’s playing down the middle. You can’t blame the lad when Mowbray plays him as a right winger and Dolan as the centre forward. 
 

As for the comments on the 7m spent on Brereton being better spent on other players/positions. It was Balaji who wanted the signing. I don’t think he would have sanctioned 2m on three or four players. IF we sell him this summer it will be for a lot more than 7m and that will help with ffp so we can reinvest in the team.

[47er]

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

That's not the same though is it.

He would have received a higher bonus had the club been in the higher division.

Not much of an incentive to get relegated - receiving a lower bonus.

Nothing odd then! Employers usually give senior staff a bonus for failure?Nothing to see here!

What on earth existed at the time of the contract to suggest we could possibly end up in Div 1 during the life of the contract?

I'm as pessimistic as it gets and I had no such thoughts.

Why do people go to such extraordinary lengths to try and show that the Venkys takeover was just like any other?

They were just naive people who were duped!

[AllRoverAsia]

WOW. I will have to process whatever bonus logic is here. I could be gone a while.

[Bigdoggsteel]

48 minutes ago, 47er said:

Nothing odd then! Employers usually give senior staff a bonus for failure?Nothing to see here!

What on earth existed at the time of the contract to suggest we could possibly end up in Div 1 during the life of the contract?

I'm as pessimistic as it gets and I had no such thoughts.

Why do people go to such extraordinary lengths to try and show that the Venkys takeover was just like any other?

They were just naive people who were duped!

It sounds odd, but it's just a contract mechanism to maybe avoid tax or something like that. You manage in the PL you get £40,000, you manage the league below you get £20,000. It's basically just a salary drop. 

You can't really compare football contracts to any other profession 

[Ulrich]

2 hours ago, 47er said:

Nothing odd then! Employers usually give senior staff a bonus for failure?Nothing to see here!

What on earth existed at the time of the contract to suggest we could possibly end up in Div 1 during the life of the contract?

I'm as pessimistic as it gets and I had no such thoughts.

Why do people go to such extraordinary lengths to try and show that the Venkys takeover was just like any other?

They were just naive people who were duped!

They're other businesses go from strength to strength by all accounts, if they were naive I seriously doubt that would have happened. The only naive people in the Blackburn rovers equation are us, the fans and we're also the ones being duped.

[RevidgeBlue]

12 hours ago, Miker said:

With the parachute money pissed away, we are just an average Championship club now. The investment in the squad from Venkys since then has been good and Mowbray has done an adequate job with limited resources.

Well, we would be "an average Championship Club" if we didn't have multi billionaire owners and Mowbray would have had to contend with "limited resources" had said owners not put in c £20m p.a. in during his tenure.

Our total income including the owners input is well above average but we are performing like a relative minnow due to having a substandard manager and coaching staff.

[LeftWinger]

5 hours ago, tomphil said:

What are they even getting bonuses for unless they are hitting a target ?

Kean's bonuses were specifically for hitting a target.

He was to receive a £200k bonus for finishing in the top 12 in the Premier League.

If Rovers were relegated - his salary was significantly reduced, but then there a bonus of £500k for getting promoted to the Premier League.

If Rovers were relegated to League One, his salary dropped even further and there was no bonus for promotion back to the Championship.

His contract certainly didn't reward failure - it mitigated the risk of high salary and bonuses being paid if were relegated.

 

[JacknOry]

4 hours ago, Spartakfenni said:

Revidge how do you know he’s on 20k p.w. He’s shown what he can do this season when he’s playing down the middle. You can’t blame the lad when Mowbray plays him as a right winger and Dolan as the centre forward. 
 

As for the comments on the 7m spent on Brereton being better spent on other players/positions. It was Balaji who wanted the signing. I don’t think he would have sanctioned 2m on three or four players. IF we sell him this summer it will be for a lot more than 7m and that will help with ffp so we can reinvest in the team.

I really dont get this line - that is was a Balaji signing. Which, btw, you are claiming that to be fact when their is zero evidence. Another example of somebody saying some random rumour and it then becoming fact. Did Balaji previously know about Brereton and really wanted him?

That summer, we were linked to Assombalonga, Patrick Bamford, and that QPR attacking mid, for starters. TM had the money buring a hole in his pocket. Wages as he claimed stopped most of those, Deadline day he spunks 7 mil on BB on a loan to perm. I dont think this was Balaji wanting a particular player, more like we had a bit of a warchest in the FFP cycle and TM was desperate to spend it. 

Of course, he decided to spend it on one player instead of addressing other key areas by spreading it around a bit.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by JacknOry

[Ulrich]

7 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Kean's bonuses were specifically for hitting a target.

He was to receive a £200k bonus for finishing in the top 12 in the Premier League.

If Rovers were relegated - his salary was significantly reduced, but then there a bonus of £500k for getting promoted to the Premier League.

If Rovers were relegated to League One, his salary dropped even further and there was no bonus for promotion back to the Championship.

His contract certainly didn't reward failure - it mitigated the risk of high salary and bonuses being paid if were relegated.

 

What other Premier league manager has a league one wage stipulation in their contract? Why on earth would that have been put in there? Forward planning.

[Gav]

36 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Well, we would be "an average Championship Club" if we didn't have multi billionaire owners and Mowbray would have had to contend with "limited resources" had said owners not put in c £20m p.a. in during his tenure.

Our total income including the owners input is well above average but we are performing like a relative minnow due to having a substandard manager and coaching staff.

Its like you've been asleep from 2011 - 2017?

Educate yourself, the stark reality is laid bare here for all to see and none of this has anything to do with Mowbray, Waggott or Venus.

http://priceoffootball.com/blackburn-rovers-chicken-little/

Venkys out

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Gav

[islander200]

5 hours ago, Spartakfenni said:

Revidge how do you know he’s on 20k p.w. He’s shown what he can do this season when he’s playing down the middle. You can’t blame the lad when Mowbray plays him as a right winger and Dolan as the centre forward. 
 

As for the comments on the 7m spent on Brereton being better spent on other players/positions. It was Balaji who wanted the signing. I don’t think he would have sanctioned 2m on three or four players. IF we sell him this summer it will be for a lot more than 7m and that will help with ffp so we can reinvest in the team.

How do you know it was Balaji who wanted Brererton?Have you evidence for this?Not according to Mowbray when he was waxing lyrical about Brereton when the signing was done.

Gallagher was on 20+ at Southampton, he took a reduction to sign on here so he will be on 17/18 a week and will have got a nice signing on bonus too

 

 

[roversfan99]

This constantly repeated assertion that Venkys put in 20m a season given to a manager pleading "limited resources" implies that he receives that 20m a season.

That is wrong on a few counts. The 20m is not a consistent "investment" for a start, it reached 20m last year in the first set of accounts to show any impact of covid, it has not been a recurruring "investment" under Venkys.

The investment does not go to the manager or into the playing squad. Mowbrays budget over the 5 years in terms of fees wont be far off zero. Gallagher and Brereton were 12m, Raya 3.5m, profit on Armstrong close to 10m, a few other nominal fees under 1m here and there. 

That is all obviously before the consideration that the losses are as high as they are because of the owners, "owners input above average" my arse. Acting like a minnow compared to that, again nonsense. The investment is merely raising shares in another company to cover losses, hardly pumping in money out of ambition.

This idea that the issues are concentrated within the management team are seemingly being repeated via an agenda. The hilarity of it all coming from the lack of responsibility that the owners take for the managements continued employment.

And to make it clear, as has been the case for the last 18 months, I want a change of manager.