Wigan Athletic (H) - Monday Night Football (urgh..)

[JBiz]

Just now, DE. said:

Problem is we've been saying that practically since the day we landed in this division, and we've never gotten it right. It's always the same two things - "we need to find a way to beat poor teams at home" and "we're only (x) amount of points away from a playoff place". We've never solved the first problem so we always remain "(x)" number of points outside of the playoff positions. I think we were 6th for about an hour once under Bowyer and that's it. Last night shows that we still haven't found a solution to the issue of beating teams when we are the favourites, and that is a mental and cultural change that I think is probably beyond Mowbray unfortunately. 

You’ve casually ignored a huge swathe of history between Bowyer having us there and Mowbray bringing us back in that position, ignored the context of the differing challenges both faced, ignored the turn around in culture and club since, and I have to say it makes me question the judgement of your summary (bold sentence).

I guess when you’ve made your mind up about something, it’s easy to come to use individual results, instances, performances, signings etc to confirm previous belief. I prefer an open mind personally!  

 

[DE.]

Just now, Harry The Bass said:

You’ve casually ignored a huge swathe of history between Bowyer having us there and Mowbray bringing us back in that position, ignored the context of the differing challenges both faced, ignored the turn around in culture and club since, and I have to say it makes me question the judgement of your summary (bold sentence).

I guess when you’ve made your mind up about something, it’s easy to come to use individual results, instances, performances, signings etc to confirm previous belief. I prefer an open mind personally!  

 

It's just my opinion mate, but you obviously aren't quite open minded enough to accept that  happy Christmas!

[JBiz]

Just now, DE. said:

It's just my opinion mate, but you obviously aren't quite open minded enough to accept that  happy Christmas!

Strange how you fail to address the points but take offence! 

Like I said, to come to a conclusion like that and completely ignore the entire context of the job he has done - id call that suspect summary! 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Harry The Bass

[DE.]

Just now, Harry The Bass said:

Strange how you fail to address the points but take offence! 

Like I said, to come to a conclusion like that and complete ignore the entire context of the job he has done - id call that suspect summary! 

I'm not offended, but I do feel you're being a bit harsh! We're talking about what it takes to get our team out of the Championship, which is very different to getting it out of League 1, hence I don't consider that portion of our recent history hugely relevant. Mowbray has done a good job of bringing the club closer together, raising team spirit, and restabilising the club - absolutely - but again that is not what is being spoken about. We've lost to Luton and Charlton, scraped past Barnsley with a dire performance and just drew with Wigan - all at home - and you think my opinion is based on one game? Come on now. 

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, DE. said:

Sorry but this is just making excuses. Of course we were the favourites last night. We were at home against a team who hadn't kept a clean sheet away from home in something like 33 games, who have an absolutely shocking away record in this division and who are way below us in the table in significantly worse form. If you don't consider us favourites in that scenario then I think we have vastly different definitions of the word. As long as attitudes like this prevail, where we are the perennial underdogs, we will never get anywhere. Successful teams embrace being favourites and thrive under the pressure of proving just how good they are. Unsuccessful teams wilt and struggle under the same circumstances. Since being in this division we have always been the latter because, imo, we've never had a true winner in the dugout demanding the absolute best and making the players believe they deserve promotion.

You're right that no game should be considered easy or a walkover, but to suggest we shouldn't have been expecting a win last night is ridiculous IMV. The only reason to expect a draw or loss is because you consider the team to have been significantly overachieving recently, which doesn't match a proclaimation that we can get into the top six. 

I don't give teams favourite tag. Anyone in this league can beat anyone and performance against anyone.thats why I enjoy this league.

Look at Watford vs Manchester United game where I backed Watford to win in the betting and they won despite not being favourites. 

Favourites is just a tag. 

The game is played on the pitch not on pitch which you seem to be happily to ignore and forget

[DE.]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I don't give teams favourite tag. Anyone in this league can beat anyone and performance against anyone.thats why I enjoy this league.

Look at Watford vs Manchester United game where I backed Watford to win in the betting and they won despite not being favourites. 

Favourites is just a tag. 

The game is played on the pitch not on pitch which you seem to be happily to ignore and forget

Saying "football is played on the pitch" is like saying "the sky is blue". Yes, of course. That doesn't have anything to do with our inability to impose ourselves on teams that are objectively not as good as us - whether that be in league position, form, squad value or whatever else. WBA are favourites for most of the games they play and have only lost one match this season, Leeds are similar with only 4 losses in 23. There will always be the odd surprise result and draw, but when it becomes a pattern of failing to impress against weaker teams then that's something to be dealt with rather than ignored with a shrug of the shoulders saying "that's the Championship for ya!" - to have a proper winner's menality you simply can't take that stance, and I desperately hope Mowbray isn't thinking that way. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by DE.

[Ossydave]

Most teams in the league struggle a bit with consistency. The last 1-2 play off spaces will be taken by teams who put a solid 10 game run together the last 10 games of the season, I honestly don't know why people are ruling us out after a poor display last night. West Brom were fortunate to scrape a draw vs Wigan, I highly doubt their fans ruled out promotion after that performance. However you look at it, thats our 3rd clean sheet in 4 games as well and we haven't had our best 4 defenders fit for all those games. Walton is improving, certain people will clearly struggle to give him much credit but hey ho.

Of course Dack is a big loss but we've got a couple of players who can step in there, the biggest concern is can they contribute the same goal tally? Not sure, but time will tell.

 

[JBiz]

Just now, DE. said:

I'm not offended, but I do feel you're being a bit harsh! We're talking about what it takes to get our team out of the Championship, which is very different to getting it out of League 1, hence I don't consider that portion of our recent history hugely relevant. Mowbray has done a good job of bringing the club closer together, raising team spirit, and restabilising the club - absolutely - but again that is not what is being spoken about. We've lost to Luton and Charlton, scraped past Barnsley with a dire performance and just drew with Wigan - all at home - and you think my opinion is based on one game? Come on now. 

“Last night shows that we still haven't found a solution to the issue of beating teams when we are the favourites,and that is a mental and cultural change that I think isprobably beyond Mowbray unfortunately.”

This was the summary - when it’s followed up with more context about the notion that we don’t win when favourites, IMO it is still far too simplistic.

It ignores everything but the result and is simply being used to back up a pre-disposition, comparing with another manager, at a different time, in a different climate

For example - isn’t it easy to say that last night was probably more impacted by Tosin missing out late, and not having that consistent formula of recent success? Rather than simply pointing blindly at the result and making a sweeping statement?

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

29 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I don't believe this favourites tag bollocks. Wigan shouldn't be bottom of the league based on last night performance. Games are won on the pitch not on a paper before games. Certain fans expect these types of games as walk over and they never are. People never learn. 

If you would have offered this position in the league 8 games ago or before the season starts I would have took the offer  

Wigan are bottom because they are toothless  in front of goal. They didn't convert any of the good ball they had in and around our box into goals. A decent team would have done. They out enthused us from 5 minutes in. We allowed them to pull up the arm chairs and get their feet up on the table in the first half, when you do that it's always going to be an uphill struggle.

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Even the team that went down under kean would walk this 

Never.

[DE.]

Just now, Harry The Bass said:

“Last night shows that we still haven't found a solution to the issue of beating teams when we are the favourites,and that is a mental and cultural change that I think isprobably beyond Mowbray unfortunately.”

This was the summary - when it’s followed up with more context about the notion that we don’t win when favourites, IMO it is still far too simplistic.

It ignores everything but the result and is simply being used to back up a pre-disposition, comparing with another manager, at a different time, in a different climate

For example - isn’t it easy to say that last night was probably more impacted by Tosin missing out late, and not having that consistent formula of recent success? Rather than simply pointing blindly at the result and making a sweeping statement?

 

It was obviously in context of failing to win and/or play well in similar circumstances this season (and similar types of performances going all the way back to League 1, eg. Bury at home which I believe was also on TV) - to be honest I didn't think it needed to be pointed out specifically, but hopefully now there is a bit more clarity. 

I appreciate you haven't been on here recently but I haven't done a 180 on Mowbray since we've started winning and began talking about him getting us promoted. I've stated multiple times that we've been here before under TM and the real test is how we react to poor results such as this one. If we beat Birmingham on boxing day then that will give me a little more optimism that things are changing and this result was a one off as opposed to restablishing the norm of going on a poor run of form after a string of good results. 

Also as a side note and not related to the above, the idea that Wigan "don't deserve" to be where they are is nonsense. You can say that after a handful of games, but not after 23. We're literally half way through the season. Wigan are down there because they've been poor for half a season - the table doesn't lie at this point. Doesn't mean they can't get out of it and are doomed, but they still deserve to be where they are at present.  

Edited December 24, 2019 by DE.

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

Problem is we've been saying that practically since the day we landed in this division, and we've never gotten it right. It's always the same two things - "we need to find a way to beat poor teams at home" and "we're only (x) amount of points away from a playoff place". We've never solved the first problem so we always remain "(x)" number of points outside of the playoff positions. I think we were 6th for about an hour once under Bowyer and that's it. Last night shows that we still haven't found a solution to the issue of beating teams when we are the favourites, and that is a mental and cultural change that I think is probably beyond Mowbray unfortunately. 

Top, top post. And the reality of the situation. Arguably this is the biggest problem - after all players out of position and a consistent team are easily fixible (and are being of late) . We have had this problem for 3 years under TM now and are no nearer solving it. In fact I'm various guises - staying up, winning league 1, beating league 1 plodders this has been haunting us for years. If you can't do that then in one respect it doesn't matter how you do Vs better teams - you're still not averaging enough wins for promotion/playoffs. (I appreciate in another respect it matters a lot!) Let's not forget Wigan have 1 win in 23 (24?) away games. That shouts out as a terrible team away from home - and one there for the taking. We weren't at the races and didn't play on any of the fragility Wigan would have felt. We were resred, had everyone in form and the opponents were familiar and haven't won in ages. It really was gift-wrapped and yet we didn't come close to taking advantage of it. Promotion winning teams would have. The fact this isn't a first is pretty alarming and show why we are solidly midtable. 

 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Blue blood said:

Top, top post. And the reality of the situation. Arguably this is the biggest problem - after all players out of position and a consistent team are easily fixible (and are being of late) . We have had this problem for 3 years under TM now and are no nearer solving it. In fact I'm various guises - staying up, winning league 1, beating league 1 plodders this has been haunting us for years. If you can't do that then in one respect it doesn't matter how you do Vs better teams - you're still not averaging enough wins for promotion/playoffs. (I appreciate in another respect it matters a lot t!) Let's not forget Wigan have 1 win in 23 (24?) away games. That shouts out as a terrible team away from home - and one there for the taking. We weren't at the races and didn't play on any of the fragility Wigan would have felt. We were resred, had everyone in form and the opponents were familiar and haven't won in ages. It really was gift-wrapped and yet we didn't come close to taking advantage of it. Promotion winning teams would have. The fact this isn't a first is pretty alarming and show why we are solidly midtable. 

 

 

Exactly. There's no rigour at Ewood. It's all too comfortable. I heard Mowbray's interview last night and he was droning on about keeping people happy and not upsetting players. It sounded like he was a PE teacher picking the school year 7 team not the manager of a pro football team.

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

Problem is we've been saying that practically since the day we landed in this division, and we've never gotten it right. It's always the same two things - "we need to find a way to beat poor teams at home" and "we're only (x) amount of points away from a playoff place". We've never solved the first problem so we always remain "(x)" number of points outside of the playoff positions. I think we were 6th for about an hour once under Bowyer and that's it. Last night shows that we still haven't found a solution to the issue of beating teams when we are the favourites, and that is a mental and cultural change that I think is probably beyond Mowbray unfortunately. 

Yep that bulldog attitude you need every game goes missing too quickly here. Listening to TM prattle on before the game the SKY interview went off him mid sentence when he was whining away about how hard it is to leave footballers out and how guilty you feel etc.

Add in the other post match comments back to putting the wind up everyone about Wigan - bottom of the league - you can see why we lack the cutting edge and killer instinct. That'll never materialise until it's drilled into them and players fitting that type are filling the team.

On a side note related to that it was good to see Lenihen early doors losing his rag and bollocking people. A bit of that from the sidelines wouldn't go amiss to help him get the message across.

Edited December 24, 2019 by tomphil

[simongarnerisgod]

im`e hoping it`s a case at the end of the season where someone in the hierarchy says "thanks for your efforts tony,you`ve done a fine job rebuilding the team and solidifying what was a squad heading nowhere,but you`ve gone as far as you possibly can,we are now looking for someone who can take us to a higher level" no disrespect to mowbray,he`s a nice fellow,was a fantastic defender but he`s reached his plateau of achievement,we cannot go any higher under his administration,i doubt this will happen but inconsistent team selections,negative tactics at home and a poor transfer policy are the hallmarks of the mowbray regime,we need a fresh start,it`s all to comfortable for some of our players

[tomphil]

When you look what's happening behind the scenes and fact they are printing giant flags with him on ! Then waving them in front of the cameras i'd say there is very little chance of any change happening.

[simongarnerisgod]

Just now, tomphil said:

When you look what's happening behind the scenes and fact they are printing giant flags with him on ! Then waving them in front of the cameras i'd say there is very little chance of any change happening.

i did say it was optimistic?

[jim mk2]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

We have squad the can get top 6. Now they have to deliver it. 

 But they are unlikely to "deliver it". That's what I've been saying.

No tough, ruthless, or competitive enough. Bit of a soft touch to be honest. 

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Wigan are bottom because they are toothless  in front of goal. They didn't convert any of the good ball they had in and around our box into goals. A decent team would have done. They out enthused us from 5 minutes in. We allowed them to pull up the arm chairs and get their feet up on the table in the first half, when you do that it's always going to be an uphill struggle.

Yes, Wigan played well and deserve some credit for their performance. 

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Exactly. There's no rigour at Ewood. It's all too comfortable. I heard Mowbray's interview last night and he was droning on about keeping people happy and not upsetting players. It sounded like he was a PE teacher picking the school year 7 team not the manager of a pro football team.

what a load of rubbish. 

Our squad morale is fantastic and that's down to Mowbray treating people like people NOT like a piece of dirt on the bottom of their shoe. Its called people skills. 

[jim mk2]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

 

Our squad morale is fantastic and that's down to Mowbray treating people like people NOT like a piece of dirt on the bottom of their shoe. Its called people skills. 

Players love being in a comfortable zone. It means they don't have to try too hard. That's us at the moment. Ferguson had people skills but the players were scared stiff of him too. Are our lot scared of Tony? He's far more likely to give them a hanky so they can cry

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Yes, Wigan played well and deserve some credit for their performance. 

what a load of rubbish. 

Our squad morale is fantastic and that's down to Mowbray treating people like people NOT like a piece of dirt on the bottom of their shoe. Its called people skills. 

Did you hear the interview ? I found it embarrassing. I can't imagine Fergie or Bill Shankly or Cloughie talking like that.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

 But they are unlikely to "deliver it". That's what I've been saying.

No tough, ruthless, or competitive enough. Bit of a soft touch to be honest. 

I disagree but I actually have some faith and belief in my club and players unlike you Jim. 

We aren't ruthless enough? after 5 wins in 7 games think we proved are more than enough

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

Players love being in a comfortable zone. It means they don't have to try too hard. That's us at the moment. Ferguson had people skills but the players were scared stiff of him too. Are our lot scared of Tony? He's far more likely to give them a hanky so they can cry

I was talking to the coach of my local pro Rugby League team one day. He said his number one task was " To remove all the excuses the bastards give me for losing ".

IE the coach taking them to the game was wrong, the overnight accomedation is wrong, the guy massaging the players is wrong, the kit's too tight, the refreshments aren't right, the balls aren't right etc, etc.

He added " pro players are always looking for excuses why they haven't performed, I remove as many as I can but they keep coming up with new ones ! "

  

Edited December 24, 2019 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

Players love being in a comfortable zone. It means they don't have to try too hard. That's us at the moment. Ferguson had people skills but the players were scared stiff of him too. Are our lot scared of Tony? He's far more likely to give them a hanky so they can cry

Players don't have to try too hard? Are you taking the piss or have you been on the beer already? That's is complete insult to our players. But its fans like you who couldn't for our players not to win one game you thought we could before yourself could stick the knife into our players and Manager!!! 

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Did you hear the interview ? I found it embarrassing. I can't imagine Fergie or Bill Shankly or Cloughie talking like that.

of course I have several different interviews from him. 

You find alot of this embarrassing tbh about our manager but I find him a honest, decent, people person with actually heart. Not a heartless person. I know which one I prefer and its Mowbray

[jim mk2]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I disagree but I actually have some faith and belief in my club and players unlike you Jim. 

I've seen lots of Rovers promotion and relegation sides - and in my experience this ain't a promotion side. I've no faith in the ability of Mowbray to deliver promotion. But I hope I'm wrong.