FFP Trouble

[Mattyblue]

‘Bottom feeders’? That may have been their reputation in the early days, not anymore.

The majority of fans I speak to tell me a combination of..

’They put more money in than Jack ever did’, ‘we should be grateful to them’... and of course, the old favourite... ‘they were just badly advised’.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Mattyblue

[oldjamfan1]

Just now, Miller11 said:

Brilliant post.

Except what happened to stop him (or her) going to the games? All the stuff about Venkys we knew prior to Christmas and have known for a very long time. How can you go from "looking forward to going to the games" to "not going to one" - the actual quote is this I was looking forward to it as I knew I'd be back in town and could attend a few games. I didn't go once.

I'm not necessarily arguing with their assessment of where the club is at the moment but did he/she not go because we had lost/drawn a couple of games he/she thought we should have won? I don't really understand that mentality I'm afraid.

[chaddyrovers]

anyone from the Fan Forum post what was said last night please? Isn't @only2garners on the fan forum?

[arbitro]

I know there are a lot of posts indicating that the £12m on Gallagher and Brereton have contributed massively to our losses and threat of FFP sanctions but surely the deals for them two were structured whereby payment is paid in stages over the lengths of their contracts. If this is the case then there could be another £XXm off the bottom line for the next couple of seasons.

If any of the bean counters can shed some light on this I would be grateful.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, alcd said:

This appears to be a misquote. It makes no sense that "the lower the amount overspend the larger the points deduction ". 

There's a basic 12 point deduction. But the lower the amount over spent, the more of a discount you get on that deduction, is what they're trying to explain - but admittedly they've explained it very poorly.

If we spend £2m over, we'd have less of a points deduction than if we were £10m over. 

[Vinjay]

43 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

‘Bottom feeders’? That may have been their reputation in the early days, not anymore.

The majority of fans I speak to tell me a combination of..

’They put more money in than Jack ever did’, ‘we should be grateful to them’... and of course, the old favourite... ‘they were just badly advised’.

People like that are poison and the reason others are at point of past caring.

Good owners have been victims of FUP as well. Look at Leicester, Man City, etc. I don't see why all the blame for FUP seems to be getting directed at Venkys. If they consider getting a stadium sponsor for instance can't really blame them under such circumstances. They can try to seek a way round it so people should be hoping Sheffield Wednesday win their case against the EFL.

[JacknOry]

Just now, Vinjay said:

People like that are poison and the reason others are at point of past caring.

Good owners have been victims of FUP as well. Look at Leicester, Man City, etc. I don't see why all the blame for FUP seems to be getting directed at Venkys. If they consider getting a stadium sponsor for instance can't really blame them under such circumstances. They can try to seek a way round it so people should be hoping Sheffield Wednesday win their case against the EFL.

One way around it is to stop wasting millions on dud strikers and playing them on the wing...just a thought.

[Blue blood]

Well if this is the case our transfer strategy has been well and truly utterly stupid. 

Gally and Bereton. £12 million down the drain. Not only are they not contributing much on the pitch they're hindering things off it as well. 

Why are we signing players at the twilight of their careers? Whilst this has worked well with Downing, Johnson is no better than what we have but on a good wage with no resale value. 

If we had such challenges why is there so much deadwood in the squad we don't seem to be actively trying to shift? Why are more of the academy players not involved as squad players or if not good enough moved on? I get it is easier said than done but we don't seem to be operating in a way to prepare for it. 

 

But, I've done it again - worrying about FFP when any good owner shows it can be avoided, ignored or deferred. There's been a boat load of shenanigans for clubs to avoid it but our lot are either too lazy, too incompetent or both (my pick) to avoid it. 

[Vinjay]

6 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

One way around it is to stop wasting millions on dud strikers and playing them on the wing...just a thought.

You have a point but I just can't look at it like that. What am I supposed to say "damn they should have spent the money more wisely because of those rules that label Jack Walker a cheat?"

[JacknOry]

Just now, Vinjay said:

You have a point but I just can't look at it like that. What am I supposed to say "damn they should have spent the money more wisely because of those rules that label Jack Walker a cheat?"

Those rules were not in place when Jack Walker was here...move on. Just because those rules exist now, does not mean anyone is labeling him a cheat. Walker was about a model owner as you could get, FFP was brought in with good intentions after what some other owners did - has it worked, not a chance. 

[JHRover]

8 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I know there are a lot of posts indicating that the £12m on Gallagher and Brereton have contributed massively to our losses and threat of FFP sanctions but surely the deals for them two were structured whereby payment is paid in stages over the lengths of their contracts. If this is the case then there could be another £XXm off the bottom line for the next couple of seasons.

If any of the bean counters can shed some light on this I would be grateful.

You would think that would be the case. You would also think that a large chunk of that £12 million is based on certain milestones being reached. e.g. goals or promotion or England caps, or at least staggered enough to ensure no Ffp risk.

Chuck in Raya's cash and I very much doubt losses on player trading are anywhere near as high as some are suggesting.

I expected such stuff to emerge. They don't like spending, especially not in January as shown by the level of outgoings in the past.

When Lambert was here their 'big spend' consisted of selling Rhodes and then allowing loans for Graham, Gomes, Watt etc. 

I firmly believe that people like Waggott are just human shields placed to deflect blame and attention away from upstairs. To be honest I can't really take what he says too seriously.

FFP is a godsend for Venkys. In one swoop they can convince thousands that they are ready and willing to spend but are prevented from doing so by third parties.

 

[JacknOry]

Just now, JHRover said:

You would think that would be the case. You would also think that a large chunk of that £12 million is based on certain milestones being reached. e.g. goals or promotion or England caps, or at least staggered enough to ensure no Ffp risk.

Chuck in Raya's cash and I very much doubt losses on player trading are anywhere near as high as some are suggesting.

I expected such stuff to emerge. They don't like spending, especially not in January as shown by the level of outgoings in the past.

When Lambert was here their 'big spend' consisted of selling Rhodes and then allowing loans for Graham, Gomes, Watt etc. 

I firmly believe that people like Waggott are just human shields placed to deflect blame and attention away from upstairs. To be honest I can't really take what he says too seriously.

FFP is a godsend for Venkys. In one swoop they can convince thousands that they are ready and willing to spend but are prevented from doing so by third parties.

 

Defo save a few bob if that is the case. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Well if this is the case our transfer strategy has been well and truly utterly stupid. 

Gally and Bereton. £12 million down the drain. Not only are they not contributing much on the pitch they're hindering things off it as well. 

Why are we signing players at the twilight of their careers? Whilst this has worked well with Downing, Johnson is no better than what we have but on a good wage with no resale value. 

If we had such challenges why is there so much deadwood in the squad we don't seem to be actively trying to shift? Why are more of the academy players not involved as squad players or if not good enough moved on? I get it is easier said than done but we don't seem to be operating in a way to prepare for it. 

 

But, I've done it again - worrying about FFP when any good owner shows it can be avoided, ignored or deferred. There's been a boat load of shenanigans for clubs to avoid it but our lot are either too lazy, too incompetent or both (my pick) to avoid it. 

There is hope for Gallagher. He tries hard when he is on and lumped in his ridiculous peak Mowbray position on the wing. He has scored goals here before. 

Signing players at the twilight of their career? Can you give one example other than those 2? . Downing alone shows the value in doing it. I think Johnson has had some solid games. Maybe he just needs a run in the team. Will get it now with Evans out. 

We have no idea what is being done with regards moving players on. As for not enough academy players being involved, I would suggest taking a look here  

 

[Vinjay]

5 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Those rules were not in place when Jack Walker was here...move on. Just because those rules exist now, does not mean anyone is labeling him a cheat. Walker was about a model owner as you could get

There were no good intentions. It was brought in because clubs like Man United whined to UEFA and two faced hypocrites like Dave Whelan backed them. If Jack had won more league titles they would have campaigned for the same thing then. Anyone who defends it on here has "FUP syndrome" kinda like "Stockholm Syndrome" with the club being held captive by bad owners AND corrupt rules. That clown at Accrington labelled Jack a cheat so yes that's exactly what pro FUP people are doing.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Vinjay

[Mashed Potatoes]

7 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Well if this is the case our transfer strategy has been well and truly utterly stupid. 

Gally and Bereton. £12 million down the drain. Not only are they not contributing much on the pitch they're hindering things off it as well. 

Why are we signing players at the twilight of their careers? Whilst this has worked well with Downing, Johnson is no better than what we have but on a good wage with no resale value. 

If we had such challenges why is there so much deadwood in the squad we don't seem to be actively trying to shift? Why are more of the academy players not involved as squad players or if not good enough moved on? I get it is easier said than done but we don't seem to be operating in a way to prepare for it. 

 

But, I've done it again - worrying about FFP when any good owner shows it can be avoided, ignored or deferred. There's been a boat load of shenanigans for clubs to avoid it but our lot are either too lazy, too incompetent or both (my pick) to avoid it. 

Unfortunately the days of getting round FFP are at an end. There is a report that I have just read in today's Daily Telegraph that last week 5 unnamed Championship clubs visited the EFL for a meeting to demand that a date be set for the hearing in to the Sheffield Wednesday situation be set and to complain about Wednesday still bringing in new players. I am afraid that there are now an increasing number of clubs who are bringing in lawyers to consider action to ensure that the EFL enforce the rules and we are going to have to live with that.

[JacknOry]

Would rather go into FFP restrictions than sell our stadium to this lot anyway.

[Amo]

19 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

If we had such challenges why is there so much deadwood in the squad we don't seem to be actively trying to shift?

Not fair on the lads, is it? 

[Blue blood]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

There is hope for Gallagher. He tries hard when he is on and lumped in his ridiculous peak Mowbray position on the wing. He has scored goals here before. 

Signing players at the twilight of their career? Can you give one example other than those 2? . Downing alone shows the value in doing it. I think Johnson has had some solid games. Maybe he just needs a run in the team. Will get it now with Evans out. 

We have no idea what is being done with regards moving players on. As for not enough academy players being involved, I would suggest taking a look here  

 

Some good points there. With Gally we would be very lucky to get £5 million back for him, even if the market continues to inflate. Agree the stick him on the wing thing is really hindering him (and ultimately is even more likely to see us not recover our money.) Whatever way you look at it - and I too think there might be a player in there -  I feel we're a long way off from seeing any return on that investment, or even a break even. Put it this way I doubt either of us are confident/optimistic rather than hopeful Gally works out. And as for Bereton....

I think I was mainly thinking of Downing and Johnson tbh. That 2 key signings were at the twilight of their careers struck me as a bit odd at the time, and in light of our FFP situation very risky. Credit to TM for Downing as it has worked out brilliantly, but Johnson hasn't. I guess it's a mix of Johnson not massively improving the team and hindering FFP and the summer seeing us sign 2 players on big wages at the end of the career. Whittinhham was a fair while ago but falls into that category, but was more a case of what are we doing signing expensive players with no resale value on the cusp of FFP. 

Buckley is a good example of not being ready but I wonder about others. Warton should either be ready by now or gone for example, or JRC seems to be very promising. I think in part there's a thought if FFP was looming so badly we could have been more proactive in getting  our youth ready for the team or be a bit more ruthless in getting rid of some. I think my main gripe is it seems we we have somehow sleepwalked into FFP again. 

 

1 minute ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

 

 

[Blue blood]

14 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Unfortunately the days of getting round FFP are at an end. There is a report that I have just read in today's Daily Telegraph that last week 5 unnamed Championship clubs visited the EFL for a meeting to demand that a date be set for the hearing in to the Sheffield Wednesday situation be set and to complain about Wednesday still bringing in new players. I am afraid that there are now an increasing number of clubs who are bringing in lawyers to consider action to ensure that the EFL enforce the rules and we are going to have to live with that.

That will be interesting and ominous. I wonder how much power the EFL have - after all Bolton got away with their suspender point deduction. And as Sheff Wed are showing, even if you can't avoid it you can postpone it until you are where you want to be/in a better place. 

[JHRover]

13 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Would rather go into FFP restrictions than sell our stadium to this lot anyway.

Unfortunately they already own the ground albeit under the same company as the club and ACV or no ACV they can move the ground off to another company if they want to, it just might take a bit longer or require more creativity than previously.

 

[MarkBRFC]

Well lets hope them clubs start firing them 8 figure bids in for John Buckley soon then eh.

[Bigdoggsteel]

21 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Some good points there. With Gally we would be very lucky to get £5 million back for him, even if the market continues to inflate. Agree the stick him on the wing thing is really hindering him (and ultimately is even more likely to see us not recover our money.) Whatever way you look at it - and I too think there might be a player in there -  I feel we're a long way off from seeing any return on that investment, or even a break even. Put it this way I doubt either of us are confident/optimistic rather than hopeful Gally works out. And as for Bereton....

I think I was mainly thinking of Downing and Johnson tbh. That 2 key signings were at the twilight of their careers struck me as a bit odd at the time, and in light of our FFP situation very risky. Credit to TM for Downing as it has worked out brilliantly, but Johnson hasn't. I guess it's a mix of Johnson not massively improving the team and hindering FFP and the summer seeing us sign 2 players on big wages at the end of the career. Whittinhham was a fair while ago but falls into that category, but was more a case of what are we doing signing expensive players with no resale value on the cusp of FFP. 

Buckley is a good example of not being ready but I wonder about others. Warton should either be ready by now or gone for example, or JRC seems to be very promising. I think in part there's a thought if FFP was looming so badly we could have been more proactive in getting  our youth ready for the team or be a bit more ruthless in getting rid of some. I think my main gripe is it seems we we have somehow sleepwalked into FFP again. 

 

 

Ya, on the academy players I don't think Mowbray will ever integrate them correctly. Look at it this way, he has played Buckley plenty when he clearly isn't up to the physical side, but then refused to play Brereton who is the same age but with more experience at this level. He left him out so long(or played him on the wing) that whatever confidence he might have had coming here, was eroded by this stage. 

Mowbray sees things his own way and sometimes nobody else can figure out why. He will probably bring Wharton back only to start him right back or something like that. He is a frustrating man. 

As a poster mentioned in a post earlier, he is an old school manager making a ham-fisted attempt at trying to be modern. The annoying part is he does get players playing for him, so his own chopping , changing and illogical decisions are what lead to them becoming frustrated, disillusioned and out of form. He did it with Rothwell too. He seems to have coached what ability he had on the ball out of him

If Mowbray kept it simple with this squad and 4-4-2 , we would be a lot better off. Gallagher on the wing like...FFS.  Has there ever been a more stupid decision? Yet, he keeps doing it. Madness. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[lraC]

16 hours ago, Scotland1 said:

Exactly what I was thinking. Under scmp league one surely that’s omitted? 

Sounds like a good plan, we could just get relegated again. If it happens this year, someone could lump on and make a killing, as we are around 50/1. Just saying!!

[lraC]

11 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Why? We have until the end of next season before the FUP will be measured.

Not sure if that would escape scrutiny. If you mean get one of their friends to do it, that would mean passing their friends 10 million. Which I assume may be difficult to do legally. I'm sure any legal, transparent way of doing that would be taxable at best. And that any illegal or confiscated way would see them being investigated by Indian authorities again (whatever happened with that in the end, anyone?). Then over on this side I thought the league were meant to be cracking down on these circuitous ways of providing the extra funding.

 

They did okay with that money transfer Company, when they bought us. Can they not try that again? I think they were based in Bradford and no one was that sure of the source, allegedly.

[only2garners]

3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

anyone from the Fan Forum post what was said last night please? Isn't @only2garners on the fan forum?

I do not intend to get into this debate at all except to say that what has been posted on this thread about last night's Forum is not correct. Both the subject of FFP and the transfer window were on the agenda and discussed but the reports of what Steve Waggott said are wrong.

I won't comment any more on this until the minutes have been agreed and published