FFP Trouble

[chaddyrovers]

10 minutes ago, only2garners said:

I do not intend to get into this debate at all except to say that what has been posted on this thread about last night's Forum is not correct. Both the subject of FFP and the transfer window were on the agenda and discussed but the reports of what Steve Waggott said are wrong.

I won't comment any more on this until the minutes have been agreed and published

Thankyou very much for response

[Rogerb]

3 hours ago, arbitro said:

I know there are a lot of posts indicating that the £12m on Gallagher and Brereton have contributed massively to our losses and threat of FFP sanctions but surely the deals for them two were structured whereby payment is paid in stages over the lengths of their contracts. If this is the case then there could be another £XXm off the bottom line for the next couple of seasons.

If any of the bean counters can shed some light on this I would be grateful.

Not a bean counter but trawling through accounts for year end March 2019 signed by directors on 26 June 2019 so excluding the summer purchase shows page 8 profit on disposal of intangible assets (players to you and me) At 1.29m and 2018 1.03m

Point 23 in accounts talks about maximum liability for amounts due for registered players due to football clubs and other third parties for first team players is 3,970,054 subject to total appearances. ( Depends if BB considered a first team player)

Point 10 gives cost of player additions between April 2018 and 31 March 2019 at 8.862m and described as special additions!

[arbitro]

13 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Not a bean counter but trawling through accounts for year end March 2019 signed by directors on 26 June 2019 so excluding the summer purchase shows page 8 profit on disposal of intangible assets (players to you and me) At 1.29m and 2018 1.03m

Point 23 in accounts talks about maximum liability for amounts due for registered players due to football clubs and other third parties for first team players is 3,970,054 subject to total appearances. ( Depends if BB considered a first team player)

Point 10 gives cost of player additions between April 2018 and 31 March 2019 at 8.862m and described as special additions!

Thanks but finance isn't my strong point.

Quite simply are the total fees included or just what we have paid so far?

Thanks again.

[Rogerb]

39 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Thanks but finance isn't my strong point.

Quite simply are the total fees included or just what we have paid so far?

Thanks again.

Cost of purchase of intangible assets on page 13 is 4.2m so certainly doesn't include full amount of the 7m for bb. The transfer fees are divided annually by the length of the initial contract as per notes in the accounts. However the special additions terminology is different to most recent years looking back to see if this term has been used before

[Miller11]

As I said, I wasn’t there, just reporting what I’ve heard. I don’t think there’s anything wrong in that. I fully accept that I might not have got absolutely everything Waggott stated as it was intended due to it being second hand.

For me, the salient point is that there was consideration of a sale and buy/lease back of Ewood due to FFP concerns. I wasn’t overly concerned about the hypothetical sale of a now injured player.

Rich Sharpe also being cautious about reporting anything until the minutes of the meeting are published. I really don’t see any problem, unless it is expected that the minutes aren’t going to constitute an accurate record of what was discussed.

[OssyLad]

Wish the fuckers would just put us up for sale and fuck off

[Mr. E]

If I shared my views on UEFA and fair play rules I would be arrested and imprisoned.

The nice way to say it is that it is pretty much a scheme for rich and "big" clubs to stay at the top forever and never be challenged by anyone, bar miracles.

[Pedro]

11 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

If true,disturbing news, if not unexpected.

Personally, I would rather see FFP bite with a points deduction than see Ewood Park sold off. You only have to look at Coventry City's problems to see how inadvisable it is for a club's ground to be owned by someone other than the club.

As I have mentioned before, the EFL look to be getting much tougher with regard to the enforcement of the FFP rules, not least because Steve Gibson and Middlesbrough have got lawyers on the case to see that they do, and the blithe remarks above about what other clubs have done in the past do not address the reality that the club now faces.

Can you now see the haste in terms of why certain posters on here don't want to afford the manager any more time or money?  As previously mentioned, those shoddy signings have brought this issue to the door and poor results mean it can't go anywhere for the foreseeable.  We need someone to get better out of this squad and make better dealings in the transfer market.

[arbitro]

54 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Cost of purchase of intangible assets on page 13 is 4.2m so certainly doesn't include full amount of the 7m for bb. The transfer fees are divided annually by the length of the initial contract as per notes in the accounts. However the special additions terminology is different to most recent years looking back to see if this term has been used before

Thanks.

[RoverCanada]

Shockingly I've decided to make a post in this thread ? Now, let's wait until Waggott's comments are clarified in the minutes... but having said that, I shall speculate haha

Whether we're in breach of FFP this year really depends on how our 17/18 losses in L1 (£16.8m) is accounted for, which fell under the EFL's 'SCMP'. As far as I can tell, the rules do not define that those losses are considered in the FFP 3-year window. So, potentially, we started from a blank slate in 18/19, but I'm definitely not sure of that myself! A lot more attention is paid to the allowance for clubs bouncing between the Championship and PL...

Another consideration is FFP makes some exceptions for academy and community-related expenditure. This could be some £2-4m/year for us (based on estimates I've seen for other clubs), so that widens our FFP 3-year losses cap to something more like £45-51m, or £15-17m/year, under which we might be squeaking by...

Next year is where I'm more convinced that we'll be up against it and a sale or two would be necessary (and a Dack sale, sans injury, should surprise no one). I'd guess we're looking at another £20m loss this year and the amortisation of the Brereton/Gallagher transfers will start to bite, although it's ultimately more to do with our large (relative to our turnover, not the Championship!) wage bill than our transfers. Gallagher's wages are part of that issue of course, but, from my POV, wage expenditure is what's separating us from the Wigans/Barnsleys/Rotherhams... is it sustainable? Maybe not, but let's not pretend cutting the wage bill won't affect the playing squad.

Another note: according to the VLL accounts, our net player trading effectively netted out this past summer, so Raya + Nuttall appears to have paid for the Gallagher purchase, if you prefer to think of it that way...

From my rough arithmetic of the £8,862m 'intangible asset acquisitions' in the recent VLL accounts, I think that includes Brereton, Armstrong, Rothwell, Davenport, and Chapman, plus other misc. So, depends on your assumptions for the latter purchases, but probably puts Brereton around £6m, as the LT seems to have settled on reporting of late. Not the £7m commonly bandied around on here, although certainly higher than the ~£4m+ that some have rather hopefully suggested!

Also, as a quick point on what was discussed above on the £4m in maximum liabilities on transfers, I think that covers any performance/promotion-related add-ons, not 'transfers payable'. Possibly linked to Gallagher and Brereton (hopefully more the latter...), but also keep in mind that Armstrong's reported fee was £1.75m up to £3m, and maybe some more add-ons linked to the Dack purchase or anyone else we've purchased in the past few years... If anything, let's hope those liabilities are realised!

Edited January 14, 2020 by RoverCanada

[Rogerb]

8 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Thanks.

Can't find any previous reference to special additions in previous years accounts for transfer activity going back to 2012. Which raises questions. With the amount involved you have to wonder if this is the BB transfer plus agents fees and signing on fee which has been funded from a separate pot

[Mashed Potatoes]

45 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Can you now see the haste in terms of why certain posters on here don't want to afford the manager any more time or money?  As previously mentioned, those shoddy signings have brought this issue to the door and poor results mean it can't go anywhere for the foreseeable.  We need someone to get better out of this squad and make better dealings in the transfer market.

The manager here at the moment can't be afforded any more money - because if  FFP kicks in no manager can. With a contract until June 2022 how much would getting rid of the manager and his support staff cost ? At least a couple of million I would suggest, making the FFP position even more difficult. Who is this someone better who will be attracted to a club with FFP constraints, if they are there ?

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The manager here at the moment can't be afforded any more money - because if  FFP kicks in no manager can. With a contract until June 2022 how much would getting rid of the manager and his support staff cost ? At least a couple of million I would suggest, making the FFP position even more difficult. Who is this someone better who will be attracted to a club with FFP constraints, if they are there ?

It would be a cruel twist of fate if Mowbray cannot be moved on following his own horrendous transfer dealings because they in turn have ensured that we dont have the money to let him go!

[Leonard Venkhater]

4 hours ago, lraC said:

They did okay with that money transfer Company, when they bought us. Can they not try that again? I think they were based in Bradford and no one was that sure of the source, allegedly.

As in The Indian Strawbs-"You won't get me, I'm part of the (Western) Union?"

[K-Hod]

26 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The manager here at the moment can't be afforded any more money - because if  FFP kicks in no manager can. With a contract until June 2022 how much would getting rid of the manager and his support staff cost ? At least a couple of million I would suggest, making the FFP position even more difficult. Who is this someone better who will be attracted to a club with FFP constraints, if they are there ?

Guess who made the FFP position what it currently is? ?

[Mike E]

The only thing that's certain (whether it's genuinely pertinent now or not) is that the ACV means the club's options are restricted re: immediate sale of the ground.

I'm absolutely certain the idea has at least arisen.

[toogs]

37 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The manager here at the moment can't be afforded any more money - because if  FFP kicks in no manager can. With a contract until June 2022 how much would getting rid of the manager and his support staff cost ? At least a couple of million I would suggest, making the FFP position even more difficult. Who is this someone better who will be attracted to a club with FFP constraints, if they are there ?

Doing something appears too hard, so we do nothing.

I'm glad Jack Walker didn't share that view.

 

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The manager here at the moment can't be afforded any more money - because if  FFP kicks in no manager can. With a contract until June 2022 how much would getting rid of the manager and his support staff cost ? At least a couple of million I would suggest, making the FFP position even more difficult. Who is this someone better who will be attracted to a club with FFP constraints, if they are there ?

So the only defence is, getting rid of him will make us unattractive to good managers because of the financial situation/FFP. That is some endorsement. "Yes he's crap but getting rid of him will render us unable to get someone better in."

Given he's done so poorly with tactics and transfers and perhaps most pertenently changing the team and playing players out of position - the most easy and obvious thing to do - I would suggest that actually a huge amount of managers (who've had a couple of years in the game, not the try it and leave types) are better than TM. 

Name me some names who have been suggested who aren't better than TM. I reckon a fair few of them actually will be better. 

[Pedro]

2 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

The manager here at the moment can't be afforded any more money - because if  FFP kicks in no manager can. With a contract until June 2022 how much would getting rid of the manager and his support staff cost ? At least a couple of million I would suggest, making the FFP position even more difficult. Who is this someone better who will be attracted to a club with FFP constraints, if they are there ?

That's a very flawed argument, most of it has been dealt with in countless posts by countless posters.  Doing nothing certainly isn't the answer.

There are an abundance of managers who could coach this team the basics and play players to their strengths. I bet a lot will be a damn site cheaper too.  Regardless of whether TM goes or stays,the team will have to be patched up again this summer with so many out of contract.  I'd trust someone like Jokanovic (if that's how you spell it) who has excellent form in the loan market.  Warnock would get the fire in their bellies burning. 

Currently, we daren't even get people through the door with a bit of personality, drive, or a pair of ripped jeans - because our weak manager can't handle them.

 

 

Just as a recap, we've previously suggested;

Pearson

Bilic

Pardew

Warburton 

Rowett

...most seem to be doing well.

[Mashed Potatoes]

8 hours ago, Pedro said:

That's a very flawed argument, most of it has been dealt with in countless posts by countless posters.  Doing nothing certainly isn't the answer.

There are an abundance of managers who could coach this team the basics and play players to their strengths. I bet a lot will be a damn site cheaper too.  Regardless of whether TM goes or stays,the team will have to be patched up again this summer with so many out of contract.  I'd trust someone like Jokanovic (if that's how you spell it) who has excellent form in the loan market.  Warnock would get the fire in their bellies burning. 

Currently, we daren't even get people through the door with a bit of personality, drive, or a pair of ripped jeans - because our weak manager can't handle them.

 

 

Just as a recap, we've previously suggested;

Pearson

Bilic

Pardew

Warburton 

Rowett

...most seem to be doing well.

Warburton has got QPR below us in the League. Apart from Rowett the other 3 names would have been complete fantasy - I have never said there are not better managers out there just that (1) you have only to look at the owners' track record in manager recruitment to see what sort of manager would actually be hired, (2) the owners' toxic reputation in the game and the way the club is run is a serious deterrent to attracting a good manager (3) and the potential FFP position compounds that.

[Mashed Potatoes]

10 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Guess who made the FFP position what it currently is? ?

Irrelevant now.

[K-Hod]

30 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Irrelevant now.

It isn’t, In fact it’s very relevant.
You can’t have it both ways.

[philipl]

I am sad to say, I am not in the least bit surprised to see this thread.

Mowbray's transfer activities have sadly completely done for us.

[OscarRaven]

MY GUESS as to what was said: If we project last year's losses forward 2-3 years then we would have FFP problems and have to start selling star players like Dack to balance the books or worse still consider other options such as selling and leasing back the ground (as others have done). 

[Amo]

21 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Guess who made the FFP position what it currently is? ?

That's some 4D chess Mowbray's playing.