Supporters Consultation Meeting

[Bigdoggsteel]

If managers aren't judged on results, why did Coyle get sacked? 

[Mattyblue]

10 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Argh come off it mate. The words “it’s a results business” were mentioned on multiple occasions last night. The reason we signed Walton, Tosin and Cunningham on loan was because we wanted better players than we could afford to buy. Which proves that a huge metric being applied is based on results.

But also, why can’t people accept that results can be mitigated by lots of things like available finance etc. Our budget (fees plus wages) is Mid to low in the championship. (I think 11th in the last published stats). So what makes any of our fans assume that we should get in the top 6? Our results are pretty much where they should be. The question is if Mowbray can overachieve...

Hang on it was you that said because he’s so passionate, ‘he can stay as long as he wants as long as he has the desire’.  

I’m glad the club is more sensible and sees results as number 1 priority, it should always be so.

[Paul Mani]

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

If managers aren't judged on results, why did Coyle get sacked? 

Exactly.

[Paul Mani]

4 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Hang on it was you that said because he’s so passionate, ‘he can stay as long as he wants as long as he has the desire’.  

I’m glad the club is more sensible and sees results as number 1 priority, it should always be so.

Yup, getting the right person is key. The results speak for themselves and so far, so good. As and when the manager stops getting results and cannot turn the ship around I’m sure from other conversations that he won’t need pushing.

Im glad that the club are being sensible too. (At least we agree on something.) I’d hate for them to be impulsive and erratic every time something happened that they didn’t like. I’d also expect them as professionals to have results at the top of their agenda but not expect someone to make wine out of water ??

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

I’ve never said it did. But having employed people in my life I know that getting the right person into the right seat is hugely important.

Is Mowbray the right person? Yes I think so. He’s passionate, bought in and dedicated to Rovers.

Is he in the right seat? His managerial record and experience suggests he’s qualified to do the job currently. His record is decent.

Completely your opinion on Venkys. The players and coaches have been saying the same thing about Venkys being happy to spend for a decade. When I said it it wasn’t my opinion it was the opinion/s of those who work for them.

 

34 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Argh come off it mate. The words “it’s a results business” were mentioned on multiple occasions last night. The reason we signed Walton, Tosin and Cunningham on loan was because we wanted better players than we could afford to buy. Which proves that a huge metric being applied is based on results.

But also, why can’t people accept that results can be mitigated by lots of things like available finance etc. Our budget (fees plus wages) is Mid to low in the championship. (I think 11th in the last published stats). So what makes any of our fans assume that we should get in the top 6? Our results are pretty much where they should be. The question is if Mowbray can overachieve...

Regarding finance I think its all hypothetical, I am not going to be under the impression that their desire to fund a promotion winning team has been taken out of their hands based on cryptic whispers. They didnt fund a promotion team even before FFP took hold. Even if these supposed players and staff did believe it, the only people who would know are Venkys themselves and their actions even prior to FFP suggest not.

I dont doubt that Mowbray wants to do well nor ever have but its not enough or even particularly relevant in judging him as a manager. Nothing he says would really make a blind bit of difference to how I judge him to be honest, that will solely be on results and performance. You mention the available finance but thats what many people have become concerned and critical, the main money has been wasted, like I said yesterday at the end of this season I am unconvinced if the squad is in much if any better shape compared to a year ago and the main difference is not the players he has spent big money on, its perhaps the likes of Nyambe and Travis having a year of further development.

I find Mowbrays position one lacking clarity in terms of my own opinion if I am honest. I have grateful for what he has done in parts so far, especially the promotion season. There are certain individual things, signing Dack, to a lesser extent Armstrong, promoting and developing Travis etc that I think are very impressive. There are obvious signs (reliant on the temporary additions of Adarabioyo and Downing) that suggest a tangible change of style. The expectations are the play offs, and we have not yet been realistically right in the frame. And he has had 2 major investment opportunities that he couldnt have handled any worse. Has he done enough to convince me that we will move forward enough to be capable of a top 6 finish any time soon under him and he is capable of spending any significant money if and when it comes his way again? Probably not. Equally, has he stagnated enough overall to warrant me actively wanting him out and replaced? No I wouldnt say he has. Weve heard what he has said in the past at these meetings that hasnt really come to fruition so its all action based judgement and I am in the middle as it stands I think.

Edited February 7, 2020 by roversfan99

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I've been away from the board for the last few days and I haven't really got time to go back through 8 pages. Just one question for attendees - was the signings of Brererton and Gallagher discussed ?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

I’ll tell you now Sheff Wed won’t be in the fourth division in the next decade. Anderson stripped that club unlike anything we’ve seen in a long time.

I didn't say fourth division. I said they'll "head the way of", which I think they will. They're in a massive financial pickle and promotion is the only way out, if and when that doesn't come, they're stuffed because Chansiri is the type.

[Oldgregg86]

56 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Argh come off it mate. The words “it’s a results business” were mentioned on multiple occasions last night. The reason we signed Walton, Tosin and Cunningham on loan was because we wanted better players than we could afford to buy. Which proves that a huge metric being applied is based on results.

But also, why can’t people accept that results can be mitigated by lots of things like available finance etc. Our budget (fees plus wages) is Mid to low in the championship. (I think 11th in the last published stats). So what makes any of our fans assume that we should get in the top 6? Our results are pretty much where they should be. The question is if Mowbray can overachieve...

Your right and I completely agree with you. The question is can Mowbray over achieve which is what we all desperately need and want. Unfortunately the answer is a resounding no.

ive met tony and been to these things before and heard the same waffle spouted two years ago, almost identical in fact. Heard the same drivel from coyle and bowyer to. Nobody I know or heard doesn’t like Tony the man but he has to be judged on his transfer policy , his tactics, team selection and results . 

There is no doubting his current results are good but like last season, to many poor team selections and negative tactics will see us fall short. 

Like you say he needs to over achieve and be smart in the transfer window to do this , three defensive loans and 7 million on a Dud won’t get us out of this league. That’s isn’t smart, logical and doesn’t show the hallmarks of someone who is going to over achieve.

the Mis use of nyambe, Rothwell, Gallagher has Been at times criminal. 

To over achieve you need a clear and decisive plan and to build year on year to achieve it. Tony talks a good game and has all the passion in the world but re signing the likes of gladwin, Smallwood etc on contracts when we have a small budget isn’t smart business and the money needs to be put to better use to give Us half a chance at over achieving. Its the minute details that helps clubs over achieve . 

Aging players and no goalkeepers plus the same defence as the one he inherited at the start of next season don’t show me or put faith in me that this honest likeable man can be the ruthless , savvy wheeler dealer we need to get us where we not only need to Be but belong. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Oldgregg86

[JHRover]

36 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Yup, getting the right person is key. The results speak for themselves and so far, so good. As and when the manager stops getting results and cannot turn the ship around I’m sure from other conversations that he won’t need pushing.

Im glad that the club are being sensible too. (At least we agree on something.) I’d hate for them to be impulsive and erratic every time something happened that they didn’t like. I’d also expect them as professionals to have results at the top of their agenda but not expect someone to make wine out of water ??

The problem we have here, which is going to only get bigger as more time passes, is that we have allowed Mowbray the manager to build the club and direct the club on and off the pitch exactly how he wants it, in his image and with his close input. 

This goes beyond appointing the coaching staff, scouts, CEO, Venus as Head of Football, it also reaches every corner of recruitment.

Now all that is fine as long as the results keep coming along and we keep making positive progress. I think the vast majority of fans would agree that our trajectory has been overall positive under Mowbray and that we are in better health football wise now than we were under the wretched Coyle. Clearly the central component of this was getting promoted back at the first opportunity.

But the flip side is that there will now be a reluctance to make a managerial change moving forward even when it might be necessary for the benefit of the club. Why? Because Mowbray's departure would leave a gaping chasm at the club and probably see things unravel on and off the pitch. Because of that people at the club and in the fanbase treat such a notion as something horrific and to be avoided.

It shouldn't be like this.

Changing a manager, whilst not ideal or enjoyable, is necessary at all levels in football. Yet we have hamstrung ourselves by building a Championship football club on the manager's shoulders.

Edited February 7, 2020 by JHRover

[Ewood Ace]

2 minutes ago, JoeH said:

They're in a massive financial pickle and promotion is the only way out, if and when that doesn't come, they're stuffed 

I would also say all of that about us. Debt north of £150 Million and a wage to turnover ratio of 154%. It's not sustainable for us to just carry on for the next few years as a mid table Championship side, if we don't get promotion within the next few years then we will be going back down to league 1 within the next 4-5 years and the return won't be as quick.

[lraC]

1 hour ago, Miller11 said:

Waggott told me he couldn’t comment on what happened before he arrived. He acknowledged that he understood why it would be a concern. He told me he doesn’t like agents (I’ll go into detail later).

The issue here is with Venkys, not Mowbray or Waggott - I like both of them, though don’t agree with absolutely every decision they make.  If it’s of no concern to you, then fine. Coyle was a horrendous and damaging appointment, Mowbray worked out. I’m very concerned about who his eventual successor may be and how he will be appointed.

The bigger issue with this really, is why on earth are the owners still apparently using the services of these people when they have distanced themselves from the likes of JA in the past? Plenty of fans have suggested that Venky's have learned their lessons and were just badly advised, which if true, begs the question, why would you keep going back to the same stable then?

When you look back at the very suspicious activity surrounding the take over and occasions when certain respectable members of the media (Nick Harris being one) were asking, who is running Blackburn Rovers? you have to wonder what is still going on. 

The most dubious signing we ever made was one Myles Anderson, who the fans were accused of hounding out, yet has he ever made it anywhere? If these forces are still lurking somewhere and the only answer we are given by the current regime, is we can't comment on the past, then where does that leave us?

Edited February 7, 2020 by lraC

[Guest]

There's some clear flaws in this consultation meeting process:

It's more or less the same faces every time, the issues discussed are often of little significance, different supporters groups have different agendas so things sway way off of topic, the first team manager does most of the talking when this meeting is designed to cover off field issues too...

 

Just think:

• Ben Brereton/Sam Gallagher - where was FFP concern then? Why did they take priority over permanent defenders?
• Stadium upkeep & maintenance
• Season tickets always going on sale way too late
• Sodexo food prices being disgustingly high
• Captaincy: Now Charlie Mulgrew is a fringe player, and Bennett can't get in the team, can we announce Lenihan as club captain?
• Dack: Contract, injury, will we ever make any money from him, will he sign another deal?
• Rovers vs Burnley youth game at Ewood Park moved to lunchtime on a work day so nobody could attend - big financial opportunity missed.
• Attendances: Away season tickets, multi-year season tickets, pricing of season tickets and match day price hikes
•  

Most of these topics go zero discussion, or at the most, little discussion. Yet they spent ages talking about away supporters in the Darwen End and their positioning... 

They need to scrap biannual Supporters Consultation Meetings and throw a bit more effort into the Fans Forum idea.
Have more prominent figures attend, and have them more often. The club shouldn't just produce the minutes of the FF meetings, they should also produce a report to say which items HAVE been acted on as a result - because most answers at these events go along the lines of "We'll Look Into It"... what does that even mean?

The club want to re-connect with fans who stay away... then set up a meeting with them and them only to discuss winning back their trust and their season tickets.
Do it separately, Tony Mowbray doesn't need to attend that, that should be the community trust people, Waggott, the ticketing people etc...

 

[Guest]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

I would also say all of that about us. Debt north of £150 Million and a wage to turnover ratio of 154%. It's not sustainable for us to just carry on for the next few years as a mid table Championship side, if we don't get promotion within the next few years then we will be going back down to league 1 within the next 4-5 years and the return won't be as quick.

That's true. I do believe that Venkys are a little less "livewire" and unpredictable than Chansiri though.

I definitely feel in less imminent danger than they should.

[Leonard Venkhater]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

If managers aren't judged on results, why did Coyle get sacked? 

BUT....results (his own performance) weren't even part of the recruitment criteria, when he arrived. Any fool could see that from a glance at his CV!

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Leonard Venkhater said:

BUT....results (his own performance) weren't even part of the recruitment criteria, when he arrived. Any fool could see that from a glance at his CV!

 

If you ignore his time at Burnley, yes. 

[lraC]

Just now, Leonard Venkhater said:

BUT....results (his own performance) weren't even part of the recruitment criteria, when he arrived. Any fool could see that from a glance at his CV!

 

I think one of his first statements was to distance himself from anyone connected with the previous regime, which appears at best to be a bit of a diversion. 

[Leonard Venkhater]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

If you ignore his time at Burnley, yes. 

And listen to the comments from Clark Carlisle (sorry, I know!) about the culture and amateurish training methods, even at Burnley. Similar stuff to what was said at Bolton and Wigan-well before he arrived here. Indeed, Carlisle gives credit to Cotterill for assembling that Burnley promotion side

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Leonard Venkhater said:

And listen to the comments from Clark Carlisle (sorry, I know!) about the culture and amateurish training methods, even at Burnley. Similar stuff to what was said at Bolton and Wigan-well before he arrived here. Indeed, Carlisle gives credit to Cotterill for assembling that Burnley promotion side

Ya, probably, sounds about right. 

Was a shite appointment, just pointing out that he did get sacked because of results eventually. 

[Leonard Venkhater]

12 minutes ago, lraC said:

I think one of his first statements was to distance himself from anyone connected with the previous regime, which appears at best to be a bit of a diversion. 

We still recall his defence of Kean, one of his fellows from the same stable. Pulis was another(from the same stable) who came out in support.

Many of us had read the Guardian piece about SEM's role at Bolton and Rovers.

So, when Coyle said he had never heard of SEM, that said plenty. Later, he went one stage further before one of the supporters' meetings, as he sought to distance himself from the cockney wide boy." What's his name again?"

I guess there were some, who believed him......

And so..to HSH....

[Doogs]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I've been away from the board for the last few days and I haven't really got time to go back through 8 pages. Just one question for attendees - was the signings of Brererton and Gallagher discussed ?

No

[Doogs]

41 minutes ago, JoeH said:

There's some clear flaws in this consultation meeting process:

It's more or less the same faces every time, the issues discussed are often of little significance, different supporters groups have different agendas so things sway way off of topic, the first team manager does most of the talking when this meeting is designed to cover off field issues too...

 

Just think:

• Ben Brereton/Sam Gallagher - where was FFP concern then? Why did they take priority over permanent defenders?
• Stadium upkeep & maintenance
• Season tickets always going on sale way too late
• Sodexo food prices being disgustingly high
• Captaincy: Now Charlie Mulgrew is a fringe player, and Bennett can't get in the team, can we announce Lenihan as club captain?
• Dack: Contract, injury, will we ever make any money from him, will he sign another deal?
• Rovers vs Burnley youth game at Ewood Park moved to lunchtime on a work day so nobody could attend - big financial opportunity missed.
• Attendances: Away season tickets, multi-year season tickets, pricing of season tickets and match day price hikes
•  

Most of these topics go zero discussion, or at the most, little discussion. Yet they spent ages talking about away supporters in the Darwen End and their positioning... 

They need to scrap biannual Supporters Consultation Meetings and throw a bit more effort into the Fans Forum idea.
Have more prominent figures attend, and have them more often. The club shouldn't just produce the minutes of the FF meetings, they should also produce a report to say which items HAVE been acted on as a result - because most answers at these events go along the lines of "We'll Look Into It"... what does that even mean?

The club want to re-connect with fans who stay away... then set up a meeting with them and them only to discuss winning back their trust and their season tickets.
Do it separately, Tony Mowbray doesn't need to attend that, that should be the community trust people, Waggott, the ticketing people etc...

 

Why are fans staying away?. How many are staying away?. Is it Venkys ?. Or is it the fact we are no longer in the Premier League?

[lraC]

15 minutes ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

We still recall his defence of Kean, one of his fellows from the same stable. Pulis was another(from the same stable) who came out in support.

Many of us had read the Guardian piece about SEM's role at Bolton and Rovers.

So, when Coyle said he had never heard of SEM, that said plenty. Later, he went one stage further before one of the supporters' meetings, as he sought to distance himself from the cockney wide boy." What's his name again?"

I guess there were some, who believed him......

And so..to HSH....

Spot on.

We now have HSH providing personnel. I wonder why?

[Paul Mani]

58 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I would also say all of that about us. Debt north of £150 Million and a wage to turnover ratio of 154%. It's not sustainable for us to just carry on for the next few years as a mid table Championship side, if we don't get promotion within the next few years then we will be going back down to league 1 within the next 4-5 years and the return won't be as quick.

It was interesting when this came about in the meeting with Cheston who brushed it aside basically saying that all of the debt is Venkys and they’re happy to keep paying. Apparently have given verbal and written assurances that they are happy to keep funding the club. But also empathised with the fans re the £150m and gave the impression that Venkys obv don’t see it as a huge sum of money or anything to worry about...

[tomphil]

Any football club needs a structure that allows managerial changes they are part and parcel of the game. They don't always get sacked there can be any number of reasons they leave.

THe Venky model all along doesn't allow for that that's why there have been so many issues. They either want a set of clowns inbetween running it for them like a franchise or they want the football manager/head coach to literally run all four corners of the club and report to them. That's probably why Mowbray got his mate Waggot to come and work for him to take something of his and Chestons shoulders. Understandable but all little bit cosy in the grand scheme of things when it appears he's very little say in much over TM.

This is why you need proper boards of directors and a chairman or chief exec who isn't pissing in the same pot as the manager etc. 

I think we could end up being the modern version of the Dario Gradi's Crewe Alexandra without the nice on the deck football and costing ten times as much per year to run.  

Edited February 7, 2020 by tomphil

[lraC]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

It was interesting when this came about in the meeting with Cheston who brushed it aside basically saying that all of the debt is Venkys and they’re happy to keep paying. Apparently have given verbal and written assurances that they are happy to keep funding the club. But also empathised with the fans re the £150m and gave the impression that Venkys obv don’t see it as a huge sum of money or anything to worry about...

I suppose when you split a large debt between a few different parties, it doesn't seem as bad.