Supporters Consultation Meeting

[tomphil]

Just now, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

They confirm my worst nightmare with Balajis son....we will be their play thing for decades to come.

Lets hope he's learned something at Reading Uni otherwise it's from frying pan to fire. I really wouldn't be surprised if he's not already had some sort of input such are the odd things that go on here.

[Stuart]

Thanks @Miller11 - a great and insightful summary. Polar opposite of your mate.

Have to say though, the first half of your post really annoyed me. Mowbray and Waggott getting upset because they have been called out in a couple of things?!?

”Defenders are coming” has turned into “We can’t buy a whole new defence”. Then goes on to say a keeper and defenders are a priority in the Summer! Talk about doublespeak!!

You’ve finished off by saying the two of them are likeable and honest. From your notes I think the opposite: dislikeable and say what people want to hear then move on - but maybe you had to be there to get the context.

Disgusted that Waggott felt “absolutely honouring Jack’s legacy” meant asking fans to volunteer to clean up his grave - and then having a pop when his offer wasn’t gratefully accepted. Is this what he think this respect means to fans? And is blaming fans really his only response? So disappointing. Jack’s legacy was on the pitch and the stadium - and both are in dire need of update just to be Championship-adequate, let alone PL-standard.

Venkys are wanting to put up season ticket prices and Steve “Waggott Tax” Waggott is going into bat on behalf of the fans? That really doesn’t stack up.

“If Tony comes and tells me he’s had enough” is the only way we are getting a new manager. What a way to run a football club! No continuity planning, no pressure, no ambition. Just a very very comfortable closed-shop senior management team. The only alternatives are the fans getting onto Mowbray’s back - or a strong campaign aimed at putting this whole charade on Pascha’s shoulders.

[tomphil]

Last time FFP was hovering we got told Shaw wanted to increase ticket prices and it was the owners who in fact thought that was a bad idea.

Think Stevo might be adlibing a tad there.  He's the one who over projected ST sales based on nothing but mere hope and he's the one who admitted looking for ways to cover the shortfall.

Besides didn't prices go up a bit anyway ?

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, Silas said:

Scottish Football Association?!  ?

Suppose with Kean, Coyle, and Lambert in the conversation it's sort of relevant. 

LOL

I also do now understand a lot more following the detailed post from @Miller11

[JHRover]

Funny one but Venkys don't sack managers.

They didn't sack Kean even though he was loathed and wrecked the club. He walked after they brought Shebby in.

They didn't sack Berg. Shaw did.

They didn't sack Appleton. Shebby did.

They didn't sack Bowyer. Pasha did.

They didn't sack Lambert. He walked.

They didn't sack Coyle. They brought Senior in who got shut or recommended Pasha to get shut. Either way nothing happened for months and then within weeks of Senior arriving he was gone.

Venkys just want someone in place who will tell them what they want to hear, stick up for them, fly to India a couple of times a year. Not particularly bothered about results, performances or league position.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Time and time again any reference/criticism to Venkys is met with 'they are not here to defend themselves' mantra.Yes Waggot and Mowbray..we know you are not going to bite the hand that feeds the face.

Let's touch on that comment again... 'they are not here.'

It's one sad and telling damning consistent of their disastrous tenure.

Thank you Miller11 for your report.

Edited February 7, 2020 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[Parsonblue]

I totally agree with much of what @Miller11 wrote about last night's meeting.  Both Mowbray and Waggott come across exceptionally well and clearly have the club at heart.  For the first time since the owners took over there is a positive vibe about the place.  I think both were very upfront about the situation and they seem to be putting the foundations in place to take the club in the right direction.  

I think from last night it's clear that the owners are here for the long term and that Mowbray and Waggott have their confidence and are likely to be here for some time to come.  Personally, I'm quite happy about that, as I think both Mowbray and Waggott are doing a decent job, whilst I accept that some aren't.

[Bigdoggsteel]

49 minutes ago, DE. said:

TM has never been able to balance a squad properly, going all the way back to his Celtic days when he was playing six strikers at once. Not saying he should be completely removed from the transfer process but should certainly not be in charge either. Same with contract renewals - his opinion should carry some weight, but he's made too many expensive mistakes (Mulgrew & Smallwood the most obvious ones at present) to be the decision maker. Ideally should have some kind of DoF above him doing the more cerebral stuff, leaving Tony to concentrate on the footballing side of things.  

Ya, I agree with that. I think Mowbray has a lot of great characteristics and competencies for the role, but it would probably benefit him to take a step back from that. 

That Celtic role really was the big one for him and it's telling it didn't work out. I would need to check,but I would guess it was as bad as anyone's has done there. I can't say I watched it in depth at the time. I don't know about the 6 striker thing, his judgement does indeed get clouded. 

You would wonder how the WBA fans felt the year they won the championship. He clearly got the mix right that year. In some ways he is probably always chasing that formula. They had some characters and talent though, Morrison, Brunt ,Kiely ,Philips ,along with others. The trick is recreating that with different players. Something he has failed to do. He has had his personal challenges to be fair. I like him and do honestly believe the grass might not be greener if he goes. It's just a toss up then with regards how much time is too much time. 

[DE.]

9 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, I agree with that. I think Mowbray has a lot of great characteristics and competencies for the role, but it would probably benefit him to take a step back from that. 

That Celtic role really was the big one for him and it's telling it didn't work out. I would need to check,but I would guess it was as bad as anyone's has done there. I can't say I watched it in depth at the time. I don't know about the 6 striker thing, his judgement does indeed get clouded. 

You would wonder how the WBA fans felt the year they won the championship. He clearly got the mix right that year. In some ways he is probably always chasing that formula. They had some characters and talent though, Morrison, Brunt ,Kiely ,Philips ,along with others. The trick is recreating that with different players. Something he has failed to do. He has had his personal challenges to be fair. I like him and do honestly believe the grass might not be greener if he goes. It's just a toss up then with regards how much time is too much time. 

I don't know huge amounts about his time at Celtic either but it's generally accepted that it was a bit of a disaster. His career as a manager had been on an upward trajectory up until that point, but it was then that things began going downward for him and obviously the lowest point was being at Coventry. He was fortunate to get the Rovers job but to be fair he's done better than I would have expected overall. I don't think he's done a great job but he hasn't done a bad one either. Just somewhere in the middle, fairly similar to Bowyer. Maybe that's the limit as long as Venky's own the club. 

As far as his stint at WBA goes I can't place too much stock in it due to it being so long ago - things have changed a lot since then. Even Owen Coyle was able to get a club promoted during that period so I don't think the difficulty was as high as it is at present. They did drop straight back down but again I wouldn't necessarily judge him on that - even the likes of McCarthy and Warnock have struggled to keep teams in the PL and I think most of us would have been delighted if either had turned up here in the past few years.

Overall I think Tony has the right general vision and ideas for the club, but not necessarily the abilities to execute those ideas properly. Imo he needs help, particularly in the recruitment department, and until he gets that I doubt we'll get very far.

Edited February 7, 2020 by DE.

[tomphil]

Dalglish won the league here but pretty much flunked at Newcastle, Hodgson didn't really get to grips with it here and was a disaster in the transfer market but ended up managing England.

I don't hold celtic against Mowbray knowing how he works he probably tried to hard in the overthinking dept assuming it would be easier than it was with his methods. 

It's everywhere else i look at and it kind of tells the story.

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, DE. said:

I don't know huge amounts about his time at Celtic either but it's generally accepted that it was a bit of a disaster. His career as a manager had been on an upward trajectory up until that point, but it was then that things began going downward for him and obviously the lowest point was being at Coventry. He was fortunate to get the Rovers job but to be fair he's done better than I would have expected overall. I don't think he's done a great job but he hasn't done a bad one either. Just somewhere in the middle, fairly similar to Bowyer. Maybe that's the limit as long as Venky's own the club. 

As far as his stint at WBA goes I can't place too much stock in it due to it being so long ago - things have changed a lot since then. Even Owen Coyle was able to get a club promoted during that period so I don't think the difficulty was as high as it is at present. They did drop straight back down but again I wouldn't necessarily judge him on that - even the likes of McCarthy and Warnock have struggled to keep teams in the PL and I think most of us would have been delighted if either had turned up here in the past few years.

Overall I think Tony has the right general vision and ideas for the club, but not necessarily the abilities to execute those ideas properly. Imo he needs help, particularly in the recruitment department, and until he gets that I doubt we'll get very far.

I suppose we all learn how to do our jobs better as time goes on. As long as you are open to change. 

He has brought Johnson up,which is certainly positive. Not buying into some ludicrous "theories" on here that he did it to protect his job. I genuinely think he is trying to improve the club. Absolutely no doubt,whatever anyone says,that we are in a much ,much better place than he found us. I would genuinely love for him to be the one that gets the credit for that,not someone after him. At the end of the day though,he will need to push on. The 12 million will always be something he has to answer for. 

Jesus you remind me of one of Big Mick's seasons in the premier League where it was an unmitigated disaster. You would wonder how that happens, or doesn't in the case of say Wolves and Sheffield United. Mick has never cracked it in the Premier League , which would make you wonder when you read the feedback from practically everyone (except Keane) who played for him. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 minute ago, tomphil said:

Dalglish won the league here but pretty much flunked at Newcastle, Hodgson didn't really get to grips with it here and was a disaster in the transfer market but ended up managing England.

I don't hold celtic against Mowbray knowing how he works he probably tried to hard in the overthinking dept assuming it would be easier than it was with his methods. 

It's everywhere else i look at and it kind of tells the story.

This is true. The secret sauce for success is indefinable in many ways. 

I would love to see Mourinho or Guardiola take over ,say, Sunderland now and see how they get on over 3 seasons. 

[roversfan99]

With events like this I do think people sometimes get drawn in and carried away by the furore and enthusiasm shown, no one doubts especially Mowbrays passion but it is their competence and performance that should be evaluated. People were buzzing after the last one but things they said didnt really come to fruition.

For example, many of the criticisms aimed at Waggott, surcharges, pricing, an aggressive marketing pitch etc contributing towards an inability to hit sales targets for example havent really been answered either way or solved. And we are no clearer regarding the issues around recruitment failures of the past.

Obviously it would never be asked at such an event but I am not sure how healthy it is with Mowbray basically having a safe job as long as Waggott is here based on their previous relationship.

Minor point but I really hope the option isnt taken on Bells contract, would be a backwards step.

[Bigdoggsteel]

16 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

With events like this I do think people sometimes get drawn in and carried away by the furore and enthusiasm shown, no one doubts especially Mowbrays passion but it is their competence and performance that should be evaluated. People were buzzing after the last one but things they said didnt really come to fruition.

For example, many of the criticisms aimed at Waggott, surcharges, pricing, an aggressive marketing pitch etc contributing towards an inability to hit sales targets for example havent really been answered either way or solved. And we are no clearer regarding the issues around recruitment failures of the past.

Obviously it would never be asked at such an event but I am not sure how healthy it is with Mowbray basically having a safe job as long as Waggott is here based on their previous relationship.

Minor point but I really hope the option isnt taken on Bells contract, would be a backwards step.

I would flip that and say some get caught in negativity, look at our league position. 

[roversfan99]

9 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would flip that and say some get caught in negativity, look at our league position. 

I was talking specifically about the meeting.

Our league position is 10th and our clearly stated aim is the top 6 so its nothing remarkable.

I gave my view on the situation regarding Mowbray (basically sitting on the fence) earlier in this thread. Waggott I am unsure as to why he receives praise at a similar level because for me his ticketing policies have in the main failed.

[Paul Mani]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Funny one but Venkys don't sack managers.

They didn't sack Kean even though he was loathed and wrecked the club. He walked after they brought Shebby in.

They didn't sack Berg. Shaw did.

They didn't sack Appleton. Shebby did.

They didn't sack Bowyer. Pasha did.

They didn't sack Lambert. He walked.

They didn't sack Coyle. They brought Senior in who got shut or recommended Pasha to get shut. Either way nothing happened for months and then within weeks of Senior arriving he was gone.

Venkys just want someone in place who will tell them what they want to hear, stick up for them, fly to India a couple of times a year. Not particularly bothered about results, performances or league position.

Fake news.

Absurd to insinuate they didn’t authorise the bullet on all of those managers and then blame them for the financial mess. They’re either culpable for the whole thing, or they’re not. You can’t pick and choose. Oh wait...

Edited February 7, 2020 by Paul Mani

[roversfan99]

Whether pressure to which extent we will never know how strong forced Kean out, it is a matter of fact that he wasnt sacked and it is rewriting history to deny that.

[Paul Mani]

42 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

With events like this I do think people sometimes get drawn in and carried away by the furore and enthusiasm shown, no one doubts especially Mowbrays passion but it is their competence and performance that should be evaluated. People were buzzing after the last one but things they said didnt really come to fruition.

For example, many of the criticisms aimed at Waggott, surcharges, pricing, an aggressive marketing pitch etc contributing towards an inability to hit sales targets for example havent really been answered either way or solved. And we are no clearer regarding the issues around recruitment failures of the past.

Obviously it would never be asked at such an event but I am not sure how healthy it is with Mowbray basically having a safe job as long as Waggott is here based on their previous relationship.

Minor point but I really hope the option isnt taken on Bells contract, would be a backwards step.

The surcharges are absolute bullshit and the guy from the working men’s club wiped the floor with Waggot on that.

Waggots job security is based on the performance of all aspects of the club including the performance of the team. Are you seriously suggesting that he’d sacrifice himself for the manager? What foundation do you have of this seeing as its pretty obvious that the manager has done a decent enough job since he came to the club?

[JHRover]

5 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Fake news.

Absurd to insinuate they didn’t authorise the bullet on all of those managers and then blame them for the financial mess. They’re either culpable for the whole thing, or they’re not. You can’t pick and choose. Oh wait...

Fake news that Shaw was taken to court for acting without authorisation from upstairs?

Fake news that Kean and Lambert resigned so there was no 'bullet' to speak of?

Fake news that Bowyer and Coyle left the club very soon after the emergence of third parties Pasha and Senior after the owners had done nothing for months?

Maybe Venkys did 'authorise' the sackings but the push for it came from people they brought in.

[Bigdoggsteel]

15 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I was talking specifically about the meeting.

Our league position is 10th and our clearly stated aim is the top 6 so its nothing remarkable.

I gave my view on the situation regarding Mowbray (basically sitting on the fence) earlier in this thread. Waggott I am unsure as to why he receives praise at a similar level because for me his ticketing policies have in the main failed.

His role is more than ticketing policies, to be fair. 

I read on here a lot that we don't have aims or ambitions,so it's good to read you say we have aimed to get into the play offs. 

[Paul Mani]

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Whether pressure to which extent we will never know how strong forced Kean out, it is a matter of fact that he wasnt sacked and it is rewriting history to deny that.

It’s not a matter of fact. There was a lot more to his exit and It’s pretty well documented that he was forced out and the consequent statements and legal action corroborate that.
 

Do you honestly think Steve Kean would have walked away from the best job he ever had?

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

Fake news that Shaw was taken to court for acting without authorisation from upstairs?

Fake news that Kean and Lambert resigned so there was no 'bullet' to speak of?

Fake news that Bowyer and Coyle left the club very soon after the emergence of third parties Pasha and Senior after the owners had done nothing for months?

Maybe Venkys did 'authorise' the sackings but the push for it came from people they brought in.

Does it matter? Ultimately the result was the what we wanted. 

[Paul Mani]

1 minute ago, JHRover said:

Fake news that Shaw was taken to court for acting without authorisation from upstairs?

Fake news that Kean and Lambert resigned so there was no 'bullet' to speak of?

Fake news that Bowyer and Coyle left the club very soon after the emergence of third parties Pasha and Senior after the owners had done nothing for months?

Maybe Venkys did 'authorise' the sackings but the push for it came from people they brought in.

Who were acting on the orders of their bosses!? ???

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Does it matter? Ultimately the result was the what we wanted. 

Yes but the point is clear. Venkys take no interest in results, performances or the fans. They'll only make a change when someone has the guts to recommend it to them and even then it takes an age to happen.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

It’s not a matter of fact. There was a lot more to his exit and It’s pretty well documented that he was forced out and the consequent statements and legal action corroborate that.
 

Do you honestly think Steve Kean would have walked away from the best job he ever had?

I asked earlier, why did he resign? @roversfan99

What's your take? 

Did he have the Liverpool or United job lined up?