Supporters Consultation Meeting

[roversfan99]

24 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It doesn't matter. Being there at the end of the season is all that matters. 

Well now realistically it's very difficult due to injuries. We can all spout on about signings,but you tell me how we replace Dack and Holtby with 1.3 million. 

The moaners say we aren't progressing, then when it's pointed out that we have in many ways, they then say "well we aren't in the play offs". I just wonder if we did get into the play off places,  would it then change to "well if it wasn't for Mowbray ,we would be top 2" 

Its a bit of a logic leap to suggest that if we did achieve our aims and expectations of a top 6 finish, something that has correctly been pointed out as being incredibly unlikely as weve never been in the top 6 at any point, that people would just dismiss that by creating new expectations. There is no need to create theories up to back up a "moaners" based hypothesis that you have.

For what its worth, it depends what you use as the barometer to gauge progression. Compared to this time last year, we are in exactly the same position so no progression. Conversely, we finished 15th and are currently 10th, so whilst we dont have a full season of evidence to accurately compare against, we have progressed.

I think we definitely have progressed this season on the assumption that both squads were fit and healthy. The problem people keep flagging up is that the main upgrades ie Downing and Adarabioyo are temporary additions and if we assume that it is highly unlikely that we will have a sniff of promotion this year, then comparing summer to summer we have not really moved forward in terms of progressing slowly and incrementally towards the top 6 if it is done in such a way. Mowbray chose to spend his transfer budget solely on one player who has been a failure and not added to the potency of our attack. He also gave the green light to sell a young and flawed but talented goalkeeper but he did sign a talented player in Holtby who we have for another year. 

The signings targeted were mainly in the wide areas so were never direct replacements for Dack and the at the time fit and healthy Holtby. The wide areas have been an achilles heel throughout Mowbrays time in charge and we needed to strengthen there to add additional sources of goals with or without those players.

[Stuart]

20 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It doesn't matter. Being there at the end of the season is all that matters. 

Well now realistically it's very difficult due to injuries. We can all spout on about signings,but you tell me how we replace Dack and Holtby with 1.3 million. 

The moaners say we aren't progressing, then when it's pointed out that we have in many ways, they then say "well we aren't in the play offs". I just wonder if we did get into the play off places,  would it then change to "well if it wasn't for Mowbray ,we would be top 2" 

“The moaners” would point to examples like the following:

- “Defenders are coming”

- “We can’t expect to buy a whole new defence”

- “Buying a keeper and defenders is a priority in the Summer”

But this contradiction seems to be conveniently forgotten in favour of supporter bashing.

[K-Hod]

Mowbray said top 6 was the aim. So if we don’t reach the top 6, then he’s not met his own expectations, wouldn’t that be fair to say?

[Bigdoggsteel]

31 minutes ago, Stuart said:

“The moaners” would point to examples like the following:

- “Defenders are coming”

- “We can’t expect to buy a whole new defence”

- “Buying a keeper and defenders is a priority in the Summer”

But this contradiction seems to be conveniently forgotten in favour of supporter bashing.

"Supporter bashing" Stuart, please stop. You are too sensitive about this type of thing. 

People are having conversations 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[Bigdoggsteel]

35 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Its a bit of a logic leap to suggest that if we did achieve our aims and expectations of a top 6 finish, something that has correctly been pointed out as being incredibly unlikely as weve never been in the top 6 at any point, that people would just dismiss that by creating new expectations. There is no need to create theories up to back up a "moaners" based hypothesis that you have.

For what its worth, it depends what you use as the barometer to gauge progression. Compared to this time last year, we are in exactly the same position so no progression. Conversely, we finished 15th and are currently 10th, so whilst we dont have a full season of evidence to accurately compare against, we have progressed.

I think we definitely have progressed this season on the assumption that both squads were fit and healthy. The problem people keep flagging up is that the main upgrades ie Downing and Adarabioyo are temporary additions and if we assume that it is highly unlikely that we will have a sniff of promotion this year, then comparing summer to summer we have not really moved forward in terms of progressing slowly and incrementally towards the top 6 if it is done in such a way. Mowbray chose to spend his transfer budget solely on one player who has been a failure and not added to the potency of our attack. He also gave the green light to sell a young and flawed but talented goalkeeper but he did sign a talented player in Holtby who we have for another year. 

The signings targeted were mainly in the wide areas so were never direct replacements for Dack and the at the time fit and healthy Holtby. The wide areas have been an achilles heel throughout Mowbrays time in charge and we needed to strengthen there to add additional sources of goals with or without those players.

It's not a leap. It's my opinion ,which I am entitled to. 

As for the rest, I think it's been discussed to death. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

23 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Mowbray said top 6 was the aim. So if we don’t reach the top 6, then he’s not met his own expectations, wouldn’t that be fair to say?

Do you think he should be sacked if we come 7th? 

[Mashed Potatoes]

28 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Mowbray said top 6 was the aim. So if we don’t reach the top 6, then he’s not met his own expectations, wouldn’t that be fair to say?

No it wouldn't be fair because an aim is not the same as an expectation.

[RoversClitheroe]

2 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

No it wouldn't be fair because an aim is not the same as an expectation.

An aim creates an expectation

[OldEwoodBlue]

6 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Do you think he should be sacked if we come 7th? 

I think he should be sacked if we come 10th

or if we come 7th but 20 points adrift.

Measure is showing progression and challenging for the top 6.

[J*B]

1 hour ago, K-Hod said:

Mowbray said top 6 was the aim. So if we don’t reach the top 6, then he’s not met his own expectations, wouldn’t that be fair to say?

I’m of the belief Tony’s time is up, although I think he’s been a great manager for us. I mostly think time is up because I think all managers have a limited window to be successful in, whether that be Tony Mowbray or Jose Mourinho. If you study the data this cannot be argued for all modern day managers apart from Ferguson who bucked that trend. 
However, if we finish 9th and say 10 points off the top 6, I do think Tony could argue he would have got the top 6 with Dack, Cunningham and Holtby if there weren’t injured. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

52 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

An aim creates an expectation

Yes,but both are just measures. 

Have you ever done a performance review where you work? 

[OJRovers]

What concerns me about the transfer policy of 'buying young players that are going to be great in 2 years' is that what players are going to be attracted to this?

Someone smashing it in League One or abroad is not going to be jumping at the chance to play for our U23s for 2 years. 

That has maybe shown in not being able to sign anyone.

They only have to look at Chapman, Brereton, Davenport, Rothwell etc to realise it won't do their career any favours.

 

[RoversClitheroe]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Yes,but both are just measures. 

Have you ever done a performance review where you work? 

Yep, if you keep aiming for things and not achieving that aim is that failure? 

I'd probably not be very highly rated at work if I kept aiming and not achieving.

Got the top rating in my performance review fyi as I hit all my aims for 2019.

Edited February 8, 2020 by RoversClitheroe

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, J*B said:

I’m of the belief Tony’s time is up, although I think he’s been a great manager for us. I mostly think time is up because I think all managers have a limited window to be successful in, whether that be Tony Mowbray or Jose Mourinho. If you study the data this cannot be argued for all modern day managers apart from Ferguson who bucked that trend. 
However, if we finish 9th and say 10 points off the top 6, I do think Tony could argue he would have got the top 6 with Dack, Cunningham and Holtby if there weren’t injured. 

Spot on, he'd have a fair argument but most of us realise that wouldn't have been the case if it comes to that.

There's something missing about this regime that will continue to hold us back even when in good shape.

[Bigdoggsteel]

12 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Yep, if you keep aiming for things and not achieving that aim is that failure? 

I'd probably not be very highly rated at work if I kept aiming and not achieving.

Got the top rating in my performance review fyi as I hit all my aims for 2019.

Nothing wrong with failure, as long as you learn. If we frightened people of failure, they would never try. I don't like the word in a performance review context,of which I do many with staff. 

I am sure you have different categories, some people don't achieve their goals /hit the KPIS in everything. You need to look at it as an overall. I don't think anyone would or should be fired for failing to achieve one of their goals,if they are achieving or exceeding even in other areas. 

Well done. You must have a nice manager. I don't think it's good to max out. Hence why on my team we always have stretch goals, which are hard to hit. I would say us getting into the play offs would be a stretch goal, for sure. 

[Stuart]

3 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

"Supporter bashing" Stuart, please stop. You are too sensitive about this type of thing. 

People are having conversations 

Adults apparently.

You do have a pop at supporters an awful lot though.

[K-Hod]

1 hour ago, J*B said:

I’m of the belief Tony’s time is up, although I think he’s been a great manager for us. I mostly think time is up because I think all managers have a limited window to be successful in, whether that be Tony Mowbray or Jose Mourinho. If you study the data this cannot be argued for all modern day managers apart from Ferguson who bucked that trend. 
However, if we finish 9th and say 10 points off the top 6, I do think Tony could argue he would have got the top 6 with Dack, Cunningham and Holtby if there weren’t injured. 

Whilst I agree with what you’re saying, I think we would have bottled it, had we been close anyhow...

[Mr. E]

What people are failing to understand is that promotion is not just something "nice to aim for" but a life or death situation for the club. What happened to Bolton is nailed on to happen to us, whether in a season or two or the not so distant future. Either we fight and put pressure on the club to improve, or we watch it die. This season the chance is gone, and will be lucky to get another proper chance. 

[LDRover]

4 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It doesn't matter. Being there at the end of the season is all that matters. 

Well now realistically it's very difficult due to injuries. We can all spout on about signings,but you tell me how we replace Dack and Holtby with 1.3 million. 

The moaners say we aren't progressing, then when it's pointed out that we have in many ways, they then say "well we aren't in the play offs". I just wonder if we did get into the play off places,  would it then change to "well if it wasn't for Mowbray ,we would be top 2" 

They cost less than that when they were signed so it can be done. In my opinion there'll be nobody happier than TM with our injury and FFP situation - he gets a free pass until next season now.

[DE.]

2 hours ago, J*B said:

However, if we finish 9th and say 10 points off the top 6, I do think Tony could argue he would have got the top 6 with Dack, Cunningham and Holtby if there weren’t injured. 

Tbf we were never in the top six once even when these players were available so I think that would be a weak argument.

[Bigdoggsteel]

49 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Adults apparently.

You do have a pop at supporters an awful lot though.

Yes Stuart,we are all supporters here. Sometimes I disagree with others. 

You disagree with people on here plenty too. Are you having a pop at them? 

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

48 minutes ago, Mr. E said:

What people are failing to understand is that promotion is not just something "nice to aim for" but a life or death situation for the club. What happened to Bolton is nailed on to happen to us, whether in a season or two or the not so distant future. Either we fight and put pressure on the club to improve, or we watch it die. This season the chance is gone, and will be lucky to get another proper chance. 

Absolutely.

I am convinced there are still supporters who are oblivious to our perilous situation.The future of the Club is on a knife edge.

[K-Hod]

4 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Mowbray said top 6 was the aim. So if we don’t reach the top 6, then he’s not met his own expectations, wouldn’t that be fair to say?

Hi James, you’re clearly reading this and I see you’ve made me twitter famous without my permission. 
I don’t do twitter, so I can’t reply on there, but I don’t allow you my permission to post my content, so delete the post and we can leave it there. Thanks.

[Stuart]

42 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Yes Stuart,we are all supporters here. Sometimes I disagree with others. 

You disagree with people on here plenty too. Are you having a pop at them? 

Disagreeing while sticking to the debate topic.

“The adults are talking“ amongst other barbs crosses that line and you certainly don’t like it when anyone points out that you don’t attend matches.

[Parsonblue]

4 hours ago, J*B said:

I’m of the belief Tony’s time is up, although I think he’s been a great manager for us. I mostly think time is up because I think all managers have a limited window to be successful in, whether that be Tony Mowbray or Jose Mourinho. If you study the data this cannot be argued for all modern day managers apart from Ferguson who bucked that trend. 
However, if we finish 9th and say 10 points off the top 6, I do think Tony could argue he would have got the top 6 with Dack, Cunningham and Holtby if there weren’t injured. 

I think the one thing I took from the meeting is that Mowbray will definitely be here next season.  I don't believe the owners are likely to get rid of him before his contract is up.  If we haven't made a serious promotion push by that point then that is the time I would expect a change.  As you say, the season ending injuries to three players is something you can't really plan for when working with a limited budget.

I believe our owners have taken to Mowbray and probably find his honesty a real positive for them and fits with their own beliefs and values.  I think that will give him more time than most but ultimately, he will need to have us challenging before his contract is up.