Home V Fulham 08/02/2020

[47er]

11 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

I think he's settling for second this season!

 

He's thinking about the Champion's League! That will compensate!

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, unsall said:

And now Costello possible hamstring, think we’ve done extremely well considering half a team out, you conveniently forget when PNE had a couple of injuries they lost 4 in a row, there’s no team in this division that has had long term injuries as we have had, and re you saying TM saying we should be in the top 6, and if he isn’t he’s failed, crazy statement. If we hadn’t got all these injuries we probably would have been in the top 6. Still think Mowbray can do a job here (obviously in a minority on here) always worry about who would take over.

Even though we hadnt been in the top 6 at any point during the season? Baring in mind that Dack got injured on the 23rd December, on matchday 23, and Holtby, Rothwell and Evans were injured very recently.

[arbitro]

5 minutes ago, unsall said:

And now Costello possible hamstring, think we’ve done extremely well considering half a team out, you conveniently forget when PNE had a couple of injuries they lost 4 in a row, there’s no team in this division that has had long term injuries as we have had, and re you saying TM saying we should be in the top 6, and if he isn’t he’s failed, crazy statement. If we hadn’t got all these injuries we probably would have been in the top 6. Still think Mowbray can do a job here (obviously in a minority on here) always worry about who would take over.

You make it sound like the injured players have missed all the season so far. I'll give you Dack but Evans got injured in January 9th and has missed four games, Rothwell got injured on January 28th and has missed two games so far, Holtby got injured on February 1st and now Rankin-Costello. And in the period since the Evans injury we have won two, drawn one and lost one.

Evans, Holtby and Dack are out for the season and that will undoubtedly have an effect but up until a few weeks ago Mowbray had a full squad so to say without them we would probably be in the top six now is stretching it.

[DE.]

13 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Even though we hadnt been in the top 6 at any point during the season? Baring in mind that Dack got injured on the 23rd December, on matchday 23, and Holtby, Rothwell and Evans were injured very recently.

Something often conveniently forgotten! TM has never had us in the top six during his entire time here. Not even for one match. 

[tomphil]

Some of the criticism goes over the top but so does some of the refs to the injuries. Yes its turning into a nightmare and may well hamper where we finish. However we weren't in the top 5 and have fallen away because of that yet you'd think so reading some of the stuff around.

This season a 15th to 10th place finish has always been on the cards given all the usual variables you get at every club every season.  so it might now end up closer to 15th than 10th but above that wasn't happening.  Not without a serious effort to push on, better recruitment and management, certain key players form and yes a reasonably clean bill of health.

[Exiled in Toronto]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

Something often conveniently forgotten! TM has never had us in the top six during his entire time here. Not even for one match. 

When did you expect him to have us in the top 6? After taking over from Coyle in the bottom 3? In League 1? First season up go straight into the playoffs? The two teams we came up with haven’t as yet got near the top 16, let alone top 6.
 

I’d hoped to be nearer the top 6 than we are this season, but the home losses to Luton and Charlton basically gave everyone else a six-point start. We’ve been playing catch up ever since and aren’t six points better than any of the current top 6. Especially now.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Exiled in Toronto

[DE.]

35 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

When did you expect him to have us in the top 6?

Hold on there, I was responding to somebody saying we would be in the top six if not for injuries. I never said I expected it.

[oldjamfan1]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

Some of the criticism goes over the top but so does some of the refs to the injuries. Yes its turning into a nightmare and may well hamper where we finish. However we weren't in the top 5 and have fallen away because of that yet you'd think so reading some of the stuff around.

This season a 15th to 10th place finish has always been on the cards given all the usual variables you get at every club every season.  so it might now end up closer to 15th than 10th but above that wasn't happening.  Not without a serious effort to push on, better recruitment and management, certain key players form and yes a reasonably clean bill of health.

Don't you be coming on here talking common sense!!!

[unsall]

5 hours ago, arbitro said:

You make it sound like the injured players have missed all the season so far. I'll give you Dack but Evans got injured in January 9th and has missed four games, Rothwell got injured on January 28th and has missed two games so far, Holtby got injured on February 1st and now Rankin-Costello. And in the period since the Evans injury we have won two, drawn one and lost one.

Evans, Holtby and Dack are out for the season and that will undoubtedly have an effect but up until a few weeks ago Mowbray had a full squad so to say without them we would probably be in the top six now is stretching it.

Did you forget Cunningham, end of the day we have half a team out ,most long term.

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, unsall said:

Did you forget Cunningham, end of the day we have half a team out ,most long term.

Weve been unlucky recently but for the first 23 games, we had all bar Cunningham (for half of that time) so one major injury which is hardly rotten luck and we never got into the top 6 during that time.

[SBlue]

Not like we’re doing badly though is it?

[chaddyrovers]

8 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Yeah your right and completely agree. So how many times did we counter and trouble there keeper , how many times did bell and Nyambe turn back when a counter was on, why was the play slow and laboured with a slow tempo, when it wasn’t working why did he nit change it sooner with the emphasis on us as the home team to go for the win

I was quite happy from a defensive point of view until their scored after a lucky deflection by Travis that set their player through that allow then to get through at set Mitrovic to score. 

Like I said on Saturday our counter attacking wasn't working good enough. 

Would I have change formation that would have allow Fulham midfield and wide players more space before they scored? nope I wouldn't. 

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I was quite happy from a defensive point of view until their scored after a lucky deflection by Travis that set their player through that allow then to get through at set Mitrovic to score. 

Very poor defending from Tosin to let Mitrovic turn and shoot inside the area. Lazy from Travis as well giving the ball away and standing with his hands on his head rather than chasing back.

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I was quite happy from a defensive point of view until their scored after a lucky deflection by Travis that set their player through that allow then to get through at set Mitrovic to score. 

Like I said on Saturday our counter attacking wasn't working good enough. 

Would I have change formation that would have allow Fulham midfield and wide players more space before they scored? nope I wouldn't. 

You picked a different formation and different personnel prior to the game.

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, unsall said:

Did you forget Cunningham, end of the day we have half a team out ,most long term.

I didn't forget Cunningham, just didn't mention him. As I intimated in my earlier post your post would have more validity of you wrote it close to the end of the season. As it is most of the half of the team have only been missing for a few games right now.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

You picked a different formation and different personnel prior to the game.

Did I not pick the starting 11 that started? 

and Did I not said prior to the game that I would sit deep, play on the counter and be defensively solid? 

[Inglorious basturk]

No

[Oldgregg86]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Did I not pick the starting 11 that started? 

and Did I not said prior to the game that I would sit deep, play on the counter and be defensively solid? 

Then you would have been wrong also as that 11 and tactics resulted in a 1-0 defeat.

i agreed we did very well without the ball and defended admirably. We didn’t have any counter attacks. We slowed the game down, turned back and never threatened there goal bar one shot from the edge of the box by Gallagher. There was no counter attacks. Just defending until they scored.

as far as the top six debate goes, I never expect or demand top six. I expect to see a clear plan on how to get there and it to be implemented and I demand we try and win our home games as that is what we have to do if we want to get in the play off places. Tony talks a good game and I’ve even been took in earlier on with his vision but look at what’s actually happening and what he says the two are miles apart and I’ve heard enough waffle on bs come out of Ewood to know when someone is talking out there arse.

[chaddyrovers]

4 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Then you would have been wrong also as that 11 and tactics resulted in a 1-0 defeat.

i agreed we did very well without the ball and defended admirably. We didn’t have any counter attacks. We slowed the game down, turned back and never threatened there goal bar one shot from the edge of the box by Gallagher. There was no counter attacks. Just defending until they scored.

as far as the top six debate goes, I never expect or demand top six. I expect to see a clear plan on how to get there and it to be implemented and I demand we try and win our home games as that is what we have to do if we want to get in the play off places. Tony talks a good game and I’ve even been took in earlier on with his vision but look at what’s actually happening and what he says the two are miles apart and I’ve heard enough waffle on bs come out of Ewood to know when someone is talking out there arse.

Well surely that depends on the changes I would have made at being 1 nil and the tactics I might change to. 

We have the 9th best home form record this season and the same points as West Brom at home. (West Brom played 1 less game). 12th best away record in the league. 

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Oldgregg86 said:

as far as the top six debate goes, I never expect or demand top six. I expect to see a clear plan on how to get there and it to be implemented and I demand we try and win our home games as that is what we have to do if we want to get in the play off places. Tony talks a good game and I’ve even been took in earlier on with his vision but look at what’s actually happening and what he says the two are miles apart and I’ve heard enough waffle on bs come out of Ewood to know when someone is talking out there arse.

Mowbray has plenty of positive points as a manager imo, the issue is that he seems unable or unwilling to improve on his flaws. The strikers on the wings experiment being the most obvious one, along with a questionable at best recruitment record which has unfortunately left us with some major work to do in the summer just to stand still let alone progress. 

[Atko's Engine]

10 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Thanks for a well reasoned reply - I'll try responding in the post to help link up the discussion. 

 

Walton - the loan element is a big problem as there aren't too many benefits for us to it. But again the best I hear about him is "not as bad" which is hardly a ringing endorsement! When the debate is over how bad a player is rather than how good - and I think it would be hard to argue he has been good for us - you know that you've got a duff one. Fwiw he's not as bad as I initially thought imo but is still pretty poor. Far too many errors costing us goals, plus very few games where he has had a positive contribution. I struggle to see how he is anything but a failure given his performances and circumstances of him being here. 

Samuel a little bit more grey. Did ok for us a year before, but not looking like he will kick on. £500 k for a league 1 team was no small amount and one of our big 3 signings that year, so perhaps the expectation would be he would have made more of a contribution. For a 1 season, decent player I'm not sure it's a success story. Probably on reflection I'd say that's a pretty neutral transfer. 

 

Hmm not sure I agree all his signings did contribute. Hart, Harper, Whittingham and Caddis all spring to mind as not really making much odds as to whether we were promoted or not. We didn't hugely use our loans from higher table teams to full advantage. (Armstrong and arguably Antonsson aside.) A lot of the key players who carries us to promotion were already here: Raya, Nayambe, Mulgrew, Bennett, Graham, Lenihen. 

Could he have started building for the championship in those years - perhaps not (although to his credit Dack and Armstrong were so can't see it as a total free hit and he did ok at it.) That said given he had nearly a year and a half preparatory time pre championship with his team, he really should have been in a position to know exactly what was needed and to hit the ground running. Given we've not really challenged playoffs with such a huge prep time doesn't suggest he's doing that well or used that time effectively - especially when you consider how threadbare the squad will be next year. 

Perhaps disappointingly is the number of players who aren't really decent championship standard. I agree the playoff type players to give you that push were hard to get in league 1 but the rest of the squad being a solid and decent platform for them could have been. That a number of them aren't but are on decent contracts taking up wages is a problem. Smallwood with new contract, Bell, Samuel, Williams aren't really the type of players needed for a promotion winning squad. Factor in how unbalanced the squad is too and you wonder what TM has spent the last 3 years doing to be in this situation. 

Last season we went on the worse run in living memory and blew the January transfer window. I can't think of any manager who would have survived such a run. Also whilst the outcome was ok, the manner involving a second half of the season collapse was utterly disappointing leaving us wondering what might have been. 

As for this season the excuses you offer - and I agree the injuries have been terrible and a huge blow - are also criticisms of TM. He blew the two transfer windows, no one else. He is the one who brought in misfiring strikers so that we are dependant on our creative mids for goals. He is the one who has an unbalanced squad - we lucked out with injuries in the first half of the season that our paper thin defence wasn't exposed more.

Injuries have made a huge difference - it would be daft to say otherwise - but had TM done his job a bit better in getting in scoring strikers or used the windows better they wouldn't have hit us quite so badly. 

Again this defence is a  criticism of TM. He can't win against the weaker teams (you could factor in the Wigan home and arguably Brum game too - I'm not at all sure it is behind us.) Its a huge weakness of his.

 

Am a bit torn on the increased value too. Probably overall - although we won't see that £12 mill back for our strikers - but whilst the squad has improved it is still horribly thin and unbalanced going into next season. Also whilst credit has to be given for improving our situation somewhat, given that Coyle had to sell his best players and had no money to replace them, it's not the fairest of comparisons. Also given we've had 3 seasons of TM, I do worry how slow the progress has been. Defence and up front and keeper don't look much better, if at all. Midfield is I will agree. 

Finally and this is a tad unfair as off topic slightly but ties into the behind the scenes stuff - am not sure we are better off. It's clear dark forces are still at work at Ewood - 3 managers from the same agency being an example of this - so I do wonder how much better things actually can be. Not TMs fault at all this one, but I'm equally sure he can't improve that situation either. 

Anyhow that's a heck of a ramble. TM isn't terrible and often it comes across that way in my posts. Not the intention - I dont think he is very good at all but he is a bit better than some of the non managers we've had in my lifetime. I feel that if we were a normal club with standards and hadn't been so horrifically treated no one would be happy with TM or the job he is doing. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most things, otherwise we're at risk of boring the pants off everyone else!

At least we can both respect each other's point of view; let's just hope that I'm the one that ends up being proven right! ?

[Paul Mani]

12 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Completely agree and imo would be the only way left not to make this a wasted season. Do you think tony will do this ? Give the players you mention ten games in what are ultimately dead rubbers ? Play Hilton over the other two to keepers ? See how good the youngsters are and no if they are capable, ready or not and then go in to the summer with a clear plan and idea of who is first team ready, who needs loaning and who needs releasing, see who he can offload and free up some much needed funds for wages or do you think he will give them a few minutes off the bench and the odd start towards the end of April like I do

I’m not sure what he’ll do. But that’s what I’d do! ??

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

Mowbray has plenty of positive points as a manager imo, the issue is that he seems unable or unwilling to improve on his flaws. The strikers on the wings experiment being the most obvious one, along with a questionable at best recruitment record which has unfortunately left us with some major work to do in the summer just to stand still let alone progress. 

Very fair analysis. Most of our recent sackings, Coyle, Kean, Appleton and Berg were obviously sacked because of rank incompetence, they were clear cut decisions, the managers all had very few defendants and it was very black and white.

With Mowbray, not only does he have credit in the bank from the promotion 2 seasons ago, but we arent doing disastrously bad, which has been the benchmark in the past. There are some very constructive reasons to suggest that Mowbray might well struggle to push us on and things might soon fall into stagnation rather than progression; imbalanced recruitment, an inability to spend any serious money, and not only are we not firmly in the targeted top 6, but we never once have been, so we arent a serious, credible contender for our season expectations. The recent injuries muddy the waters further as they eliminate any chance for the manager to realistically make that added push (something that hasnt as yet been seriously threatened) or alternatively prove without excuse that he is not capable of doing so, it creates a period of limbo where people can not be expected to withhold opinion but equally its harder to make definitive conclusions.

With the promotion goodwill and because we arent in a disaster or a tailspin, quite a few people are not willing to entertain the thought of change and will perhaps be overly defensive about even the more illogical things that he does. 

[DE.]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Very fair analysis. Most of our recent sackings, Coyle, Kean, Appleton and Berg were obviously sacked because of rank incompetence, they were clear cut decisions, the managers all had very few defendants and it was very black and white.

With Mowbray, not only does he have credit in the bank from the promotion 2 seasons ago, but we arent doing disastrously bad, which has been the benchmark in the past. There are some very constructive reasons to suggest that Mowbray might well struggle to push us on and things might soon fall into stagnation rather than progression; imbalanced recruitment, an inability to spend any serious money, and not only are we not firmly in the targeted top 6, but we never once have been, so we arent a serious, credible contender for our season expectations. The recent injuries muddy the waters further as they eliminate any chance for the manager to realistically make that added push (something that hasnt as yet been seriously threatened) or alternatively prove without excuse that he is not capable of doing so, it creates a period of limbo where people can not be expected to withhold opinion but equally its harder to make definitive conclusions.

With the promotion goodwill and because we arent in a disaster or a tailspin, quite a few people are not willing to entertain the thought of change and will perhaps be overly defensive about even the more illogical things that he does. 

Pretty much. The reasons for keeping Mowbray are for the most part completely logical and understandable. We know what the owners are like and nobody could surely trust them to replace Mowbray competently. On the other hand it was these owners who hired TM in the first place, and if he is considered an improvement on those who came before him then there's an argument the owners have the aptitude or luck to once again hire somebody who improves on their predecessors. It's unlikely based on their track record but still possible. 

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, DE. said:

Pretty much. The reasons for keeping Mowbray are for the most part completely logical and understandable. We know what the owners are like and nobody could surely trust them to replace Mowbray competently. On the other hand it was these owners who hired TM in the first place, and if he is considered an improvement on those who came before him then there's an argument the owners have the aptitude or luck to once again hire somebody who improves on their predecessors. It's unlikely based on their track record but still possible. 

Fear of replacement is a very good point, one I totally excluded. That, a previous promotion and not doing disastrously is a powerful trio.

I dont think fear of replacement should be a particularly strong argument. If thats your main concern then you are just abandoning any ambition or hope going forward. If you are giving your opinion on what you would do, it shouldnt be dominated by that.