Rovers v Hull

[chaddyrovers]

28 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Rankin-Costello injured now and will miss the Hull game! Something is very wrong to have all of these injuries. I’m convinced it’s a lack of fitness.

Even watching the players on the pitch at half time, they just doss about, having a laugh and a joke. In Brezza’s case, he needs to stand a bit closer to his team mate when passing the ball. His lack of accuracy is badly exposed when he tries pinging it across the pitch.

Lack of fitness?

Dack injury down to Morsy challenge. 

Rothwell, Holtby and Rankin Costello have all be injuries that happen during games. 

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, DE. said:

Mowbray has more or less gotten us back into the position we were in under Bowyer before Venky's pulled the rug out from underneath him. A squad somewhat unbalanced that doesn't play great football but can grind out enough results to finish comfortably mid-table if never really challenge for the playoffs. I think Bowyer had a better team overall (with less money) and that was reflected in slightly higher league positions than TM has achieved (assuming we finish lower than 8th/9th this time around). 

At the time the general concensus was that Bowyer had run his race and we needed to replace him to move forward. Obviously Venky's made the wrong choices and ended up relegating us with Owen Coyle instead. History could very easily repeat itself so personally I'm very wary of TM departing. With that said my ambition for the club remains the same as it was back then, so I'm at the point where I'm wondering if TM can realistically get us into genuine contention for promotion. I think probably not, but am I confident in our owners appointing the right person even if Mowbray left? No, I'm not. I imagine it would be chaos, confusion and disaster again. 

It's a tough situation to be in as on the one hand my ambitions for the club are beyond what I believe Mowbray can achieve, but at the same time I'm well aware that if he leaves we're more likely to spiral downward than push on - because if there's one thing Venky's have proven it's that they don't take the managerial position seriously and will always opt for the cheap route. Sometimes you get half-decent managers in the likes of Bowyer and Mowbray, other times you get a Kean or a Coyle (although one could argue Kean was not cheap at all retrospectively). What you never get is a manager that will get the club punching above its weight, which is realistically what we are going to require in order to get promoted. 

It's just a shit situation and I don't see it being resolved until Venky's are gone, and right now it seems like they are going nowhere.

It is an interesting question, what team is better, Bowyers or Mowbrays?

Dack and Armstrong are 2 very good signings by Mowbray, but youd take a 40 goal strikeforce in Rhodes and Gestede over them any day, half of which Bowyer inherited. Out wide, Bowyer appreciated actual wingers and Conway and Marshall whereas Mowbray has repeatedly ignored and neglected that area. He also had the additional flair of Cairney who again earned a profit and wasnt a natural wide but still had a consistent effect on games. Both managers had influential academy centre backs of not to dissimilar standard, both inherited right backs of which Nyambe is far better than Hanley. Both made good additions to partner them, Duffy has the edge minus the last couple of months over Adarabioyo plus we made a decent profit. Both signed cheap left backs, Spurr was average at best, but better than Bell. Both signed pretty poor keepers, Walton slightly better than Steele. Out wide is Mowbrays kryptonite, central midfield was Bowyers, he signed some right crap to go alongside his favourite child Lowe, Downing and Travis (a player Mowbray fasttracked) are far better there.

Both had/have a teachers pet who was shoehorned in no matter what, bar recently when Mowbray has refreshingly weakened on that somewhat.

Bowyer had far less money and his transfer record was far better but probably underachieved with the squad more than Mowbray, as any manager would struggle to compensate for the imbalances in the current squad. Bowyer accumulated more dross I would say (Brown, Varney, Taylor x 2, Akpan etc), but Mowbrays dross tends to cost money. Bowyer did better in his first part season obviously, but im unconvinced if he would have been able to rally us like Mowbray did. Tough call, prefer Bowyers team but feel more fondness to Mowbray.

[DE.]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

It is an interesting question, what team is better, Bowyers or Mowbrays?

Dack and Armstrong are 2 very good signings by Mowbray, but youd take a 40 goal strikeforce in Rhodes and Gestede over them any day, half of which Bowyer inherited. Out wide, Bowyer appreciated actual wingers and Conway and Marshall whereas Mowbray has repeatedly ignored and neglected that area. He also had the additional flair of Cairney who again earned a profit and wasnt a natural wide but still had a consistent effect on games. Both managers had influential academy centre backs of not to dissimilar standard, both inherited right backs of which Nyambe is far better than Hanley. Both made good additions to partner them, Duffy has the edge minus the last couple of months over Adarabioyo plus we made a decent profit. Both signed cheap left backs, Spurr was average at best, but better than Bell. Both signed pretty poor keepers, Walton slightly better than Steele. Out wide is Mowbrays kryptonite, central midfield was Bowyers, he signed some right crap to go alongside his favourite child Lowe, Downing and Travis (a player Mowbray fasttracked) are far better there.

Both had/have a teachers pet who was shoehorned in no matter what, bar recently when Mowbray has refreshingly weakened on that somewhat.

Bowyer had far less money and his transfer record was far better but probably underachieved with the squad more than Mowbray, as any manager would struggle to compensate for the imbalances in the current squad. Bowyer accumulated more dross I would say (Brown, Varney, Taylor x 2, Akpan etc), but Mowbrays dross tends to cost money. Bowyer did better in his first part season obviously, but im unconvinced if he would have been able to rally us like Mowbray did. Tough call, prefer Bowyers team but feel more fondness to Mowbray.

Can't disagree with anything you say there, although I think it's also fair to take Bowyer's inexperience into account. Mowbray had already been in management for 13 years when he joined us. By comparison we were Bowyer's first real management job. As much as I agree we underachieved as a team with Bowyer in charge, I believe the manager himself actually overachieved somewhat relative to his experience and taking into account the dysfunctional way our club is run as a whole.

[chaddyrovers]

What does this Bowyer team vs Mowbray team have to do with the Hull match day thread?

[Leonard Venkhater]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

What does this Bowyer team vs Mowbray team have to do with the Hull match day thread?

How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?

[Mattyblue]

Modding again, I see.

Because Chaddy, thread’s often organically move away from the starting point. There has been some good posts and debate and it’s nearly 24 hours till KO, so what’s the problem? 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Mattyblue

[DE.]

There isn't one.

[chaddyrovers]

10 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Modding again, I see.

Because Chaddy, thread’s often organically move away from the starting point. There has been some good posts and debate and it’s nearly 24 hours till KO, so what’s the problem? 

Why not open a thread about Bowyer team vs Mowbray team then if you want to discuss that? 

We should be discussing the match in the match day thread?

[simongarnerisgod]

hull is the most unfriendly town in britain,it makes burnley look enlightened and bohemian,i remember a midweek match at boothferry park(their old ground) the hull massive had crept onto a disused terrace and bombarded us with concrete that was loose,the police wer`nt to intent on dealing with the miscreants either ,when faced with a complaint that we were getting missiled their curt response was "you should have stayed at home then!!",if memory serves me right we lost 2-0 as well?

[Mattyblue]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why not open a thread about Bowyer team vs Mowbray team then if you want to discuss that? 

We should be discussing the match in the match day thread?

Who says? The actual mods have no issue. 

As said to you yesterday, if you aren’t interested in a debate yourself, just scroll past.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Silas]

1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why not open a thread about Bowyer team vs Mowbray team then if you want to discuss that? 

We should be discussing the match in the match day thread?

Chaddy, please knock it off.

Match threads a day before a match are very much about team selection.

Thus, the comparisons are relevant.

We can't open a new thread for every little tangent.

If you don't like the direction the conversation is going, then feel free to remove yourself from it. 

[DE.]

1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why not open a thread about Bowyer team vs Mowbray team then if you want to discuss that? 

We should be discussing the match in the match day thread?

If the discussion over Mowbray/Bowyer spilled over 2 or 3 pages then yes it would be moved to a more appropriate place, but if it's contained to a handful of posts then it isn't a problem. It's as simple as that really. If you want to steer the topic back to the game then by all means do so, if you have a problem with the discussion taking place then as aforementioned the mods are available to be contacted via PM. 

[tomphil]

46 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

Think Bowyer had a far higher budget when it came to wages.

I remember him lamenting the fact that we could only offer Fode Koita 10k a week after embargo. ?

Certainly helped us attract some good players.

The large wage bill when Bowyer was here was bloated by still paying ex players etc. 

They were getting those off the payroll whilst he was building a team on championship wages let's have it right.

Yes he had the luxury of a 45k pwk striker who as long as they set up for him delivered the goods. The wages of what he brought in and others he used would be pretty similar to what TM has had.

He's had DG, Mulgrew, Evans, Armstrong and now Gallagher to name a few on at least 15 grand each per week.

He's also been able to bring in Downing who was on at least 30k pwk at Boro 

Edited February 10, 2020 by tomphil

[roversfan99]

17 minutes ago, DE. said:

Can't disagree with anything you say there, although I think it's also fair to take Bowyer's inexperience into account. Mowbray had already been in management for 13 years when he joined us. By comparison we were Bowyer's first real management job. As much as I agree we underachieved as a team with Bowyer in charge, I believe the manager himself actually overachieved somewhat relative to his experience and taking into account the dysfunctional way our club is run as a whole.

Very true. Regarding perception of the 2 managers, would it sound stupid to suggest that Mowbrays comparative reputation was actually benefited by failing his initial task of survival? That first task was more difficult for Mowbray and I am unconvinced that Bowyer would have been able to get us straight back, but Mowbray has always had that safety blanket of being the man "who brought us back" which he wouldnt had he stayed up. I dont agree necessarily with the suggestion that going down a league was a blessing in disguise but it does make you think. Mowbray had a chance of a clean slate, many of his poorer players at the end of their contracts and a chance to rally and reset against poorer opposition. Bowyer had to deal with the backdrop of many high earners with contracts, and had to try and reset in the same league.

Its so frustrating that we never ever break even temporarily into the top 6, with either team/manager at any point. It has never been anything other than a long shot. You see teams like Reading and Brentford making it, and teams like Preston, Millwall and Bristol City bobbing in and out.

[DE.]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Very true. Regarding perception of the 2 managers, would it sound stupid to suggest that Mowbrays comparative reputation was actually benefited by failing his initial task of survival? That first task was more difficult for Mowbray and I am unconvinced that Bowyer would have been able to get us straight back, but Mowbray has always had that safety blanket of being the man "who brought us back" which he wouldnt had he stayed up. I dont agree necessarily with the suggestion that going down a league was a blessing in disguise but it does make you think. Mowbray had a chance of a clean slate, many of his poorer players at the end of their contracts and a chance to rally and reset against poorer opposition. Bowyer had to deal with the backdrop of many high earners with contracts, and had to try and reset in the same league.

Its so frustrating that we never ever break even temporarily into the top 6, with either team/manager at any point. It has never been anything other than a long shot. You see teams like Reading and Brentford making it, and teams like Preston, Millwall and Bristol City bobbing in and out.

I think unquestionably Mowbray would be viewed differently had we stayed up in 16/17 and things had then played out in a similar fashion to present day. I imagine the feeling would be more similar to how it was during Bowyer's final days, although Mowbray would still have credit in the bank from saving us from what looked like certain relegation under Coyle. Bowyer also saved the club from a perceived spiral after a disastrous 12/13 season, though, so the comparisons still aren't too far from the mark.

It's difficult when you start playing with 'what ifs' though as it's entirely possible our signings and progress would be markedly different had we not been relegated. Maybe we'd be doing better now, or maybe we'd be doing worse. Would the likes of Dack or Armstrong be here? Would Brereton have been signed and become an albatross around the manager's neck? Would Gallagher have returned to us in the 17/18 season instead on loan or permanently for the same or a lesser fee? Would the likes of Travis and Nyambe have broken into the first team as they have done recently? Would Raya have become number 1 and eventually been sold? Chances are the likes of Bell, Smallwood and Rothwell wouldn't be here at all. There are a lot of questions there. So many that I don't think you can logically begin to realistically assess a likely scenario as so many things could have changed. 

[RevidgeBlue]

25 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

We should be discussing the match in the match day thread?

Ok. 

I just hope I'm not sat round for two hours in freezing temperatures again like I was at Middlesbrough and on Saturday to witness one effort on target over 90 mins. (The official stats for Boro said 2 but I can only remember one). That's not indicative to me of a team that has much interest in the outside chance of a play off spot.

I'd also like to see players like Brereton, Chapman and Davenport given an extended chance until the end of the season. If they're not good enough the  cut our losses and move on. Don't have them hanging about forever.

(I would say the same about Damien Johnson over Mowbray but unfortunately that isn't going to happen)

Let's see some passion and enthusiasm and a team that looks like it's having a go. If we lose like that so be it but boring everyone to death in the last couple of games hasn't exactly yielded dividends either.

[Mercer]

7 hours ago, JoeH said:

Agreed. Johnson was poor. What about Davenport?

Not great from what I've seen of him in the U23's etc.

The lad's 21 years old now and should be showing a lot more.

[Mercer]

6 hours ago, Ewood Ace said:

Virtually relegated? We were 3 points from safety with 15 games to go. There are plenty of clubs who have been in that situation that have stayed up, let's not rewrite history and make out that Mowbray took on mission impossible.

Absolutely.

Mowbray admitted at Blues 12 months ago he was brought in to keep us up.

He failed.

IMO, we drew matches we should have won and lost matches we should have drawn owing to his tactics (or lack of them). 

[RevidgeBlue]

9 minutes ago, DE. said:

I think unquestionably Mowbray would be viewed differently had we stayed up in 16/17 and things had then played out in a similar fashion to present day. I imagine the feeling would be more similar to how it was during Bowyer's final days, although Mowbray would still have credit in the bank from saving us from what looked like certain relegation under Coyle. Bowyer also saved the club from a perceived spiral after a disastrous 12/13 season, though, so the comparisons still aren't too far from the mark.

It's difficult when you start playing with 'what ifs' though as it's entirely possible our signings and progress would be markedly different had we not been relegated. Maybe we'd be doing better now, or maybe we'd be doing worse. Would the likes of Dack or Armstrong be here? Would Brereton have been signed and become an albatross around the manager's neck? Would Gallagher have returned to us in the 17/18 season instead on loan or permanently for the same or a lesser fee? Would the likes of Travis and Nyambe have broken into the first team as they have done recently? Would Raya have become number 1 and eventually been sold? Chances are the likes of Bell, Smallwood and Rothwell wouldn't be here at all. There are a lot of questions there. So many that I don't think you can logically begin to realistically assess a likely scenario as so many things could have changed. 

 

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Very true. Regarding perception of the 2 managers, would it sound stupid to suggest that Mowbrays comparative reputation was actually benefited by failing his initial task of survival? That first task was more difficult for Mowbray and I am unconvinced that Bowyer would have been able to get us straight back, but Mowbray has always had that safety blanket of being the man "who brought us back" which he wouldnt had he stayed up. I dont agree necessarily with the suggestion that going down a league was a blessing in disguise but it does make you think. Mowbray had a chance of a clean slate, many of his poorer players at the end of their contracts and a chance to rally and reset against poorer opposition. Bowyer had to deal with the backdrop of many high earners with contracts, and had to try and reset in the same league.

Its so frustrating that we never ever break even temporarily into the top 6, with either team/manager at any point. It has never been anything other than a long shot. You see teams like Reading and Brentford making it, and teams like Preston, Millwall and Bristol City bobbing in and out.

The Bowyer/Mowbray parallel is quite an easy one for me. There are very striking similarities between the two, both the player's friends, GB from a background of bringing players along and possibly not focused enough on results. TM too concerned about protecting the players already at the Club and too fearful of bringing in outsiders to try and improve the team. Both their respective sides lacked mental toughness,  flattered to deceive and blew  up when it looked like we might achieve something. Both their respective sides failed to play for 90 minutes and can only put in a maximum of 45 mins at a time. Both managers far too cautious. The main difference between the two is that Bowyer's Dad Ian identified some cracking signings on a budget whereas Mowbray's team don't look as if they could unearth a hidden gem if he was playing in their back garden.

Bottom line, huge similarities between the two but neither anywhere near good enough. At least not for a team with aspirations of promotion from the Championship.

 

[Mercer]

4 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Have you seen Chapman play for the under 23's this season? Ive seen him a couple of times, haven't impress me or his attitude. Others who have attend alot more than me have said similar things. We know that his attitude in training hasn't been impress the manager or that coaching staff.  His ability to beat a man, create something out of nothing have impressed me.  Has more natural ability than virtually anyone in that U23 team.  I think there's a 'witch hunt' where Chapman's concerned - Mowbray doesn't seem to like the lad so neither do the 'happy clappers'!  The manager or his coaching staff haven't impressed me either - other than Johnson, I'd sack the feckin lot of 'em.

Yes we did go for a couple of wingers but the finances weren't right.  IMO, 'Jackonary' stuff for the fans who can't see through it!

No you aren't interested in facts that the players were sadly not right financial term wise or clubs/players wanted too much wage wise - but we are told there was money there if only Mowbray and Waggott had asked!      e don't sign players without scouting them properly or would you rather just sign a player without knowing him properly cos an Agent recommend him - Well what happened with Brereton !?!?!?!?

 

[Bohinen 22]

4 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

 

The Bowyer/Mowbray parallel is quite an easy one for me. There are very striking similarities between the two, both the player's friends, GB from a background of bringing players along and possibly not focused enough on results. TM too concerned about protecting the players already at the Club and too fearful of bringing in outsiders to try and improve the team. Both their respective sides lacked mental toughness,  flattered to deceive and blew  up when it looked like we might achieve something. Both their respective sides failed to play for 90 minutes and can only put in a maximum of 45 mins at a time. Both managers far too cautious. The main difference between the two is that Bowyer's Dad Ian identified some cracking signings on a budget whereas Mowbray's team don't look as if they could unearth a hidden gem if he was playing in their back garden.

Bottom line, huge similarities between the two but neither anywhere near good enough. At least not for a team with aspirations of promotion from the Championship.

 

Great post.

[RevidgeBlue]

25 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Absolutely.

Mowbray admitted at Blues 12 months ago he was brought in to keep us up.

He failed.

IMO, we drew matches we should have won and lost matches we should have drawn owing to his tactics (or lack of them). 

I had a look at the results from that season after the debate came up.

We started off well under Mowbray a draw and 2 wins  (also throwing away a winning position against Burton in the opening game) and if I recall correctly, briefly got our noses above the safety line at that point.

We then embarked on a horrific seven game winless run, failing to beat a ten man Norwich in one of the games, before rounding off with three wins and two draws from the last five fixtures, the last two wins coming in the final two games when it was too late.

Nothing much changes really does it?

Edited February 10, 2020 by RevidgeBlue

[joey_big_nose]

Mowbray's done okay for me in every area except big money signings where he has been abysmal.

Unfortunately if you don't spend well you arent going up.

If we'd spent 12m on a couple of strikers who could bag 20-30 goals a season between them (not unreasonable for that cash) then we'd be sitting pretty for the playoffs.

But he really ballsed it up with Brereton, one of Rovers worst signings ever, and while there is more to Gallagher he still looks like he will do well to get 5 all season.

Edited February 10, 2020 by joey_big_nose

[Vilesinner]

10 hours ago, rigger said:

In the team I picked there are only Johnson, Davenport or Mols in your list, to compete with Bennett. Johnson was by far the worst player on Saturday the other two are untried. I would go with Bennett. 

I would go with the 2 untried. No point keeping making the same choices and expecting different outcomes.

[Vilesinner]

6 hours ago, Prelude said:

Thinking a little bit outside the box with the team selection this week. Thoughts ? 

                                 Walton

Nyambe           Tosin     Lenihan       Williams

Chapman       Travis     Davenport    Bell

                               Downing

                              Armstong

 

Subs 

Leutwiller

Graham

Buckley

Mulgrew 

Gallacher 

Bennett 

Brereaton

Johnson

 

So defensive against such a poor side. 

And Williams is worse at left back than CB.

But agree with no Johnson and Bennett.