Summer Transfer Window

[simongarnerisgod]

Just now, Hasta said:

We got promoted last time with Short and Berg. Neither would step forward and start spraying the ball around. It's a myth that is what is needed to get us out of this league.

Defenders first job should be to defend well. If the  can then also play a bit it is simply a bonus. Unfortunately, because it's a bonus it puts them in higher demand / value.

Dyche's football is nowhere near as bad as it's made out. What he does very well is spot a player to build the defensive spine of the team - Heaton and Pope, Mee, Tarkowski, Keane,  Players also improve and progress under him. He then gets the best out of what he has going forward, often making a decent profit in the process and replacing them - Austin, Ings, Gray.

If anyone would turn down the style and model Burnley are adopting theere, on the grounds that the football is 'poor', then they are living in cloud chicken land.

it helps dyche that turf moor is a tight little ground that makes it easy for that style,they ar`nt half the side away from home,it`s a s***hole where nobody likes going,like upton park,the old den and burnden park,they must have been worth 30 points a season to the home side

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I give you examples like Hughes during his tenure here. Did you miss this?

I don't need the media perception to tell me anyway as I watched loads of English football

When did I ever say Results become secondary importance to me? Please show me when I said this? Or is this another one of false claims to a comment which was never posted. 

 

Potter is moving the club from Hughton's style to the passing style that Potter wants to play long term. Which is what the club owner Bloom and Sporting Director Ainsworth wanted to move the club towards. 

Who is McGregor?

We need a partner for Travis as Evans fitness could be problem. Johnson shouldn't be a regular. Cullen would be ideal for me. 

Do you really think we will sign Van Der Hoorn or Ayala? 

You mention that playing out from the back isn't the priority for you maybe but looking at the comments from Mowbray that's the way he wants to play so you need to look at it from his point of view. 

Marshall sorry. Got my Scottish keepers mixed up.

No I dont. Because even if they were obtainable financially, which I dont know about. But Mowbray seems to not prioritise actually keeping the ball out of the net as the priority of signing defenders.

As has been touched on, your "opinion" is essentially empathising with and second guessing Mowbray has really struggled to stop us from conceding too many goals so in this regard he is not the oracle as he is not getting it right. 

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I get what you and Ewood Ace are saying and I agree most of the way but Chaddy does have a point when he says Dyche has never evolved his way of playing. Big Sam started out at Bolton in a very similar workmanlike fashion but by the time he moved on he'd brought in the likes of Djorkaeff, Okocha, Diouff, Anelka etc through the team  and they were nowhere near as one dimensional as some people like to make out. Given time and money I think he would have done the same at Rovers but the Chicken Chokers though they knew better.

Maybe Dyche isn't allowed to go after similar players, or maybe he just doesn't fancy them ? I suspect it's the latter.

But he is massively overachieving to the point where barring something incredible, he could not progress any further, and is already massively overachieving in terms of resources. Why change if its working so well?

I agree with what you say on Allardyces Bolton but I am not sure if it is possible to bring in a player like Anelka for under 10m or the likes of Okocha, Djorkaeff anymore.

I do think whilst they dont have Okocha etc they are unfairly treated in terms of reputation. Brighton for all of their passing it out from the back finished where they finished under Hughton, so it didnt improve them, and they scored less goals than Burnley. Goals are the ultimate source of entertainment. Burnley also scored more than Sheffield United for all of the marvelling over their overlapping centre backs etc.

[chaddyrovers]

11 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

A basic Championship defender? Again seemingly lacking any perspective in terms of considering defensive ability as secondary in being a defender!

Bauer had a very good season. Preston improved how many goals they conceded with him as a sole signing there by 13. That is the sort of improvement we needed. He won the most aerial duels out of all defenders in the League. If basic means a massive improvement who does all the basics right and helps you concede far less goals, thats what we needed.

As you say, Armstrong was a very good signing to us, but fairly irrelevant. Although I doubt Alex Neil told him he wouldnt play! We had more money and he had already been here.

Bauer is a basic Championship defender. He's solid defender with heading ability but slow in terms of pace. But suits Neil way of football. 

But is Bauer going to be able to play a high line or ability to pass out of defence? no. Then does it suit the way Mowbray wants us to play now. 

10 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Dyche has just finished 10th in the Premier League with Burnley, I would suggest that he doesn't need to evolve his football. He also finished 13 points ahead of Graham Potter despite Potter spending spending £70 million on players this season which is about what Dyche has spent over the last 3 seasons combined. You get no extra points for winning pretty, 3 points is 3 points.

Yes Brighton have spend 70 million pounds cos they want to change the style of play and thats why the investment was needed

 

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I get what you and Ewood Ace are saying and I agree most of the way but Chaddy does have a point when he says Dyche has never evolved his way of playing. Big Sam started out at Bolton in a very similar workmanlike fashion but by the time he moved on he'd brought in the likes of Djorkaeff, Okocha, Diouff, Anelka etc through the team  and they were nowhere near as one dimensional as some people like to make out. Given time and money I think he would have done the same at Rovers but the Chicken Chokers though they knew better.

Maybe Dyche isn't allowed to go after similar players, or maybe he just doesn't fancy them ? I suspect it's the latter.

Exactly my point Tyrone.

Allardyce evolved that team at Bolton like Hughes did here with players like Bentley, Benni McCarthy, Roque Santa Cruz, Bellamy. 

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

 

No I dont. Because even if they were obtainable financially, which I dont know about. But Mowbray seems to not prioritise actually keeping the ball out of the net as the priority of signing defenders.

 

We would sign Ayala or Van Der Hoorn mostly down to wages probably but did the fit the Ball playing centre defender we want as we have Lenihan already. 

Also you never answer this question. When did I ever say Results become secondary importance to me? Please show me when I said this? 

Just now, roversfan99 said:

I agree with what you say on Allardyces Bolton but I am not sure if it is possible to bring in a player like Anelka for under 10m or the likes of Okocha, Djorkaeff anymore.

It was MY POINT actually which I mention it tonight to yourself. Did you miss that comment? 

[Hasta]

6 minutes ago, simongarnerisgod said:

it helps dyche that turf moor is a tight little ground that makes it easy for that style,they ar`nt half the side away from home,it`s a s***hole where nobody likes going,like upton park,the old den and burnden park,they must have been worth 30 points a season to the home side

Nah that's a bit of a myth too.

Last season they got 28 points at home and 26 away. In 2018 they got more points away than at home.

They are simply a side that makes it difficult for teams, regardless of venue. Kind of like when we were labelled the 'bully boys'. We knew we could also play a bit but the rest of the country started to believe we were a bunch of cloggers.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Hasta

[JacknOry]

17 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

You are missing the point. We didn't sign Bauer therefore he is just a basic limited defender. Had we signed him he would have been an astute addition and an excellent defender. It all depends on what the club do as to how  players are perceived in certain quarters...

'In Chaddy style'

Spot on Blue Bruce, i totally agree with your post.

[alex l]

Interesting tactical comments about the playing of forwards out wide. Thats not to say its worked with Gally, but Arma, yes. 

 

[Hasta]

4 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

But is Bauer going to be able to play a high line or ability to pass out of defence? no. Then does it suit the way Mowbray wants us to play now. 

The problem is if what you are saying is true, we are going to turn down the Craig Short's for the Lorenzo Amoruso's.

[roversfan99]

Also, Mowbray goes on about the possession v league position statistics but the thing is, the correlation is far from 100%.

The specific teams right at the top, either through incredible superior coaching (Leeds) parachute money (Fulham and West Brom) or incredible scouting (Brentford) have the strengths to specifically play that way. We have central midfielders that can get in your face, we have 2 natural goalscorers and plenty of pace to press or counter dependant on the situation. Can Travis, Evans or Johnson dictate games every single week? No. Can Lenihan play passes through the lines? No.

You look at some further examples, Barnsley are right near the top but are ultimately spineless at one end and lacking goalscorers at the other so they ended up lucky to be bailed out by Wigans off field problems. Cardiff finished 5th with the lowest possession. They have really good wide players with pace, and are really organised. They really take advantage of those strengths. Forest and Milwall are both right near the bottom of the possession stats but above us in the league. Im not saying that we should purposely aim for low possession but we shouldnt obsess over it. 

More important is the correlation between goals conceded and league position. The top 4 teams had the bottom 4 goals conceded. 

If we can actually fix our defence then we have 2 goalscorers and that makes us dangerous.

Again @chaddyrovers youve dismissed Bauer as basic. Playing out from the back etc is not critical. If he could have come here and helped us knock 13 goals off our goals conceded column, then thats what matters.

Lenihan cant pass the ball out from the back so we had better sell him too.

 

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Hasta said:

The problem is if what you are saying is true, we are going to turn down the Craig Short's for the Lorenzo Amoruso's.

Amoruso was crap. Short was a good player for us but there is no reason why he couldn't play next to Ball playing centre back could he?

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Again @chaddyrovers youve dismissed Bauer as basic. Playing out from the back etc is not critical. If he could have come here and helped us knock 13 goals off our goals conceded column, then thats what matters.

Lenihan cant pass the ball out from the back so we had better sell him too.

But is it critical to the way Mowbray wants to the team to play going forward? Do you accept this? 

Just now, roversfan99 said:

The specific teams right at the top, either through incredible superior coaching (Leeds) parachute money (Fulham and West Brom) or incredible scouting (Brentford) have the strengths to specifically play that way.

If you look at the possession you will find that The top 4 in the league finishing table was all in the top 5 teams in possession. The other team in that was QPR. Rovers came 7th in overall possession stats over the season. 

Here is the link to support my points above. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/GB2

[JacknOry]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

But is it critical to the way Mowbray wants to the team to play going forward? Do you accept this? 

If you look at the possession you will find that The top 4 in the league finishing table was all in the top 5 teams in possession. The other team in that was QPR. Rovers came 7th in overall possession stats over the season. 

Here is the link to support my points above. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/GB2

And we finished where?

[JHRover]

3 hours ago, unsall said:

Terrible manager, so you rate him more than Mowbray, half a season to save Stoke failed, then took Ipswich down to 3rd tier and failed to get promoted, and not the most amicable bloke, can’t see why a few would have back. 

I rate him at least as Mowbray's equal if not better. Though I admit that Mowbray's personality and temperament are better suited to the madhouse here.

It is for those personal qualities that Mowbray is here after 3 years and they love him whilst Lambert walked after a few months.

In terms of CV Lambert's is stronger than Mowbray's. Managing 3 clubs in the PL across 5 seasons and never relegating a club over a full season, whereas Mowbray has had 1 season in the PL more than a decade ago which ended in failure.

When Mowbray rocked up here he had left Coventry all but relegated from League One whilst Lambert was managing Wolves in the Championship.

As I said Lambert has made some dodgy choices but can't really be held to blame for those relegations judging by the state of Stoke and Ipswich when he took over. Both were the equivalent of blaming Mowbray for our Championship relegation.

The only major blemish on his CV that he was entirely responsible for was not getting Ipswich up last season.

Both ultimately are steady eddie managers with flaws and merits. Lambert is disliked because of his persona and his resignation and bizarrely little blame is attributed to the idiots in India for that debacle.

Anyhow, shows how exciting this transfer window is to be debating managers from 4 years ago. 

 

[DarthPaul]

1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

If you look at the possession you will find that The top 4 in the league finishing table was all in the top 5 teams in possession. The other team in that was QPR. Rovers came 7th in overall possession stats over the season. 

Here is the link to support my points above. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/GB2

Is there a stat anywhere that shows where on the pitch the possession was? 

[Blue blood]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

But is it critical to the way Mowbray wants to the team to play going forward? Do you accept this? 

No. Because it isn't really working. We didn't get near promotion with the new style. And it's a myth as shown by a ton of teams in the Premiership and the Championship that it is essential for success. 

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

If you look at the possession you will find that The top 4 in the league finishing table was all in the top 5 teams in possession. The other team in that was QPR. Rovers came 7th in overall possession stats over the season. 

Here is the link to support my points above. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/GB2

It's one of many factors but go ahead and ignore that. Money, better scouting and better coaching all factor into it as well. 

Also using these teams as an example, especially Brentford, we get none of the basics right that they do in terms of recruitment. 

Let's compare ourselves with Millwall and PNE two teams which have smaller budgets then us but finished ahead of us. They didn't finish ahead of us because they play possesison football but because they did the basics right. 

Also this whole possession football is better to watch stuff is horse manure. Utter tripe. Tell that to the blood and thunder of Hughes, or the hit on the break of Leicester's title win or Big Sam or Dyche getting unfashionable teams with few resources competing at the top end of the table. Possession football like anything else from European scouting to youth development is a means to an end. The end is being a successful football club. You take whatever means you can to get to the end. When the means becomes the goal then you are going to fail.   

 

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

But is it critical to the way Mowbray wants to the team to play going forward? Do you accept this? 

If you look at the possession you will find that The top 4 in the league finishing table was all in the top 5 teams in possession. The other team in that was QPR. Rovers came 7th in overall possession stats over the season. 

Here is the link to support my points above. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/GB2

No, if that is the primary thing that Mowbray wants from his defenders then I dont accept it, I oppose it because we need to stop the goals going in! 

I know, I have summarised why I think the obsession over the possession "league" is flawed, both based on our current squad and also the numerous exceptions, with the teams you have quoted me all having squads far more suited to it than we do. Its the goals conceded that you want to look at. QPR seem to be a fifth exception to this supposed rule, all that possession undermined by conceding the third most goals in the league. Give me some "basic" defenders any day.

[Hasta]

12 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Amoruso was crap. Short was a good player for us but there is no reason why he couldn't play next to Ball playing centre back could he?

I'd rather he played next to Berg and formed a solid defensive foundation in defence with some aerial prowess, something we've been lacking in our last 3 seasons in the champnship and which we haven't properly fixed in 7 transfer windows.

Its difficult enough with our probably limited budget trying to get players to strengthen our team. To also find ones with unnecessary attributes is even more difficult. 

Here is a damning statistic. We have known about these defensive issues for a while, and yet at the end of last season whilst we tried to convince ourselves we had a realist I've chance of the play offs we failed to keep a clean sheet in our last 11 games, conceding 2 or more in 8 of those games. Only Hull didn't keep a clean sheet in that period.

 This isn't a new manager coming into a club. This is a guy who has been here over 3 years, and yet our defending is an utter shambles. Yet he thinks the problem is we aren't passing the ball out of defence enough.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Hasta

[roversfan99]

Just now, JacknOry said:

And we finished where?

Even outside the play offs in the possession league ☹️

[LDRover]

24 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Bauer is a basic Championship defender. He's solid defender with heading ability but slow in terms of pace. But suits Neil way of football. 

But is Bauer going to be able to play a high line or ability to pass out of defence? no. Then does it suit the way Mowbray wants us to play now. 

Hang on a minute, in an earlier post you said you didn't know how Mowbray wanted us to play.

You're a walking contradiction man.

[roversfan99]

It is also interesting to note that when we really went more aggressively towards being a "possession team" post lockdown, the world of false 9s etc, we picked up 10 points in 9 games (1.11 points per game, compared to 53 in 37 prior, 1.43 points per game) and we kept 0 clean sheets, conceding 18 goals. (2 per game, compared to 1.22 per game prior to lockdown) 

[davulsukur]

Jesus christ are we actually signing anyone?

I fully expect Williams and Lenhian to be our opening day centre back partnership but we need at least 1 goalkeeper!

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

If you look at the possession you will find that The top 4 in the league finishing table was all in the top 5 teams in possession. The other team in that was QPR. Rovers came 7th in overall possession stats over the season. 

Here is the link to support my points above. 

 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/GB2

Wouldn't read too much into the team based data at Transfermarkt, at our level it's mainly 3rd party data they use anyway.

I have seen plenty of sources which claim our avg. possession stood at 44%-46% last season, whilst others such as Rich Sharpe at the LT claim 52%.

We actually average more wins when we have less of the ball/a very 50/50 amount of it... Data pulled from Fbref.com. This idea that we need to control the ball to win games is bizzare to me, we have a very fast, youthful side, we should be playing to our strength, which is playing on the counter when we have less of the ball.

- Highlighted area is highest concentration.

 

Cardiff City, finished in the play-off's, averaged 43% possession in 2019/20
Millwall, finished above us, averaged 44% possession in 2019/20
Nottingham Forest, finished 7th, averaged 46.5% possession in 2019/20

This fascination from Mowbray that we need to retain 55-70% of the games possession is absolutely unfounded, we simply don't have the players or the bottle for it!

Edited August 12, 2020 by JoeH

[Richard Oakley]

Where's JoeH, when we need a breakdown of how the 63 goals were conceded -from penalties and direct free kicks, from aerial duels lost, from failing to clear properly, from being caught  by a counter-attack or losing possession and who was at fault.Can't begin to fix a problem, without knowing where to look.

@roversfan99 is arguing that it is our possession style of play that is at fault. Is he right?

Mowbray spent a year pursuing Bauer only to lose him. He must have known Bauer's style of play and still wanted him.Bauer would have worked out cheaper than Tosin and be our player. One area of need sorted.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Richard Oakley said:

Where's JoeH, when we need a breakdown of how the 63 goals were conceded -from penalties and direct free kicks, from aerial duels lost, from failing to clear properly, from being caught  by a counter-attack or losing possession and who was at fault.Can't begin to fix a problem, without knowing where to look.

Tough metrics to actually find info on, but defensively there's some interesting stuff to see. Most of it backs up the general thoughts we mainly share on the season as a fan base.

 

In 2019/20 Rovers conceded 63 goals, which averages out at 1.37 per game. Walton had a save percentage of 69.1%, about average for the Championship, and our clean sheet percentage stood at 26.1%. We faced 175 shots on target across 46 games and 121 of them were saved. 

When Elliott Bennett played we conceded 46 goals this season, compared to when Ryan Nyambe played, where we conceded only 39.

Our average points per match stood at 1.425 when Darragh Lenihan and Tosin Adarabioyo played as a pair, as opposed to 1.275 when Darragh Lenihan and Derrick Williams played as a pair.

We averaged a goal conceded every 64 minutes when Amari'i Bell started at Left-Back, vs an average of a goal conceded every 92 minutes when Greg Cunningham started at left-back.

(little non-defensive based one whilst I'm here, we average an extra 10 seasonal goals when Lewis Travis, Adam Armstrong and Darragh Lenihan all start together in the same XI)

Edited August 12, 2020 by JoeH

[simongarnerisgod]

10 minutes ago, Richard Oakley said:

Where's JoeH, when we need a breakdown of how the 63 goals were conceded -from penalties and direct free kicks, from aerial duels lost, from failing to clear properly, from being caught  by a counter-attack or losing possession and who was at fault.Can't begin to fix a problem, without knowing where to look.

@roversfan99 is arguing that it is our possession style of play that is at fault. Is he right?

Mowbray spent a year pursuing Bauer only to lose him. He must have known Bauer's style of play and still wanted him.Bauer would have worked out cheaper than Tosin and be our player. One area of need sorted.

he did`nt achieve the correct level of niceness required for a mowbray signing? that and being told he had to fight for a first team place,despite already being an experienced first teamer put paid to that signing