Summer Transfer Window

[roversfan99]

I dont understand how a conversation developing about a manager who many have said they would like here in the past and is relevant due to him being appointed by our next opponent is "working to find negativity." 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont understand how a conversation developing about a manager who many have said they would like here in the past and is relevant due to him being appointed by our next opponent is "working to find negativity." 

Calling Hughton an undoubtedly better manager than Tony Mowbray, when in fact there’s very little tangible evidence to that effect, is definitely working to find a negative in my opinion.

News story breaks about a manager joining a new club and the first reaction is, “well he’s better than our manager”. That’s glass half empty and then some.

[bluebruce]

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont understand how a conversation developing about a manager who many have said they would like here in the past and is relevant due to him being appointed by our next opponent is "working to find negativity." 

I don't understand how half the conversations on here have to end up being about negativity versus positivity, and those two sides arguing incessantly to point score that everything is either a 'yay Tony/club management' or 'boo Tony/club management'. Dull as dish water tbh.

How about people just express their opinion and not have to always charge others down for theirs?

Then I woke up.

Edited October 6, 2020 by bluebruce

[RevidgeBlue]

4 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

Eh? Raya wasn’t sold from under Mowbray. He didn’t rate him. 

Nicely swerved, I know Mowbray (wrongly) didn't seem to  rate Raya and fell out with him and scapegoated him and the owners didn't make him sell the player but you suggested we would only make a sale of one of our main assets for BIG money and only after a suitable replacement had been sourced which was the polar opposite of what happened with Raya meaning we allegedly missed out on our original goalkeeping targets and ended up with the calamitous Walton on loan for the season.

Whatever your views on Raya, only a man with a white stick would claim Walton was better than him and surely you can't deny that our first choice keeper is an absolutely key component of the team.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

I don't understand how half the conversations on here have to end up being about negativity versus positivity, and those two sides arguing incessantly to point score that everything is either a 'yay Tony/club management' or 'boo Tony/club management'. Dull as dish water tbh.

How about people just express their opinion and not have to always charge others down for theirs?

Then I woke up.

then you have a message board where everyone posts their own thoughts, logs off, and comes back when they’ve got another thought. 

If there’s no discussion, what are we here for?

Its not positive people vs negative people, it’s just people discussing with people.

[roversfan99]

8 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Calling Hughton an undoubtedly better manager than Tony Mowbray, when in fact there’s very little tangible evidence to that effect, is definitely working to find a negative in my opinion.

News story breaks about a manager joining a new club and the first reaction is, “well he’s better than our manager”. That’s glass half empty and then some.

Tangible evidence would always be difficult when comparing managers, its very much opinion based. The win % from different clubs etc are meaningless. Hughton got promoted at Newcastle, got Birmingham into the play offs, and got Brighton up(and kept them up). 3 Championship jobs, success across the board. I say that without discrediting Mowbray in any way, or calling for his head.

6 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

I don't understand how half the conversations on here have to end up being about negativity versus positivity, and those two sides arguing incessantly to point score that everything is either a 'yay Tony/club management' or 'boo Tony/club management'. Dull as dish water tbh.

How about people just express their opinion and not have to always charge others down for theirs?

Then I woke up.

Totally agree.

[bluebruce]

14 minutes ago, JoeH said:

then you have a message board where everyone posts their own thoughts, logs off, and comes back when they’ve got another thought. 

If there’s no discussion, what are we here for?

Its not positive people vs negative people, it’s just people discussing with people.

Not talking about no discussion though Joe. Just no pointless aggression, no circular debates for 90 posts where neither side just accepts the other person simply isn't going to change their views, etc. I have the odd extended debate here like anyone does, but personally I tend to get bored long before it reaches the extents some posters regularly indulge in.

But in particular, I'm talking about the way the two 'camps' (not that they're a unified movement or anything obviously, but you know what I mean) have to snipe at each other about whether they're being negative or positive. It would also be nice if more posters could, like I feel you do, see the negatives and positives in things instead of insisting on seeing it all as darkness or all as light. But that is really dreaming, as some people just have a mindset. I'm probably dreaming with either request, but still.

It actually would be fine if it was as you described, just people discussing, but it isn't. Theres far too much tedious 'stop being negative' etc. Just bores me when it gets too pervasive, personally. This post won't change anything generally though, would be nice if some people thought about their approach though.

And don't get me wrong, it's civil compared to many corners of the internet, but still. We all support the same club and want the same things.

Edited October 6, 2020 by bluebruce

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

1 hour ago, Ossydave said:

Be interesting to see how Hughton gets on, whilst I would have had no real objections to him as our manager he does seem to rate himself rather highly, he's been holding out for a Premier league job i reckon but nobody has come a calling. Quite a few forest fans seem a bit miffed they picked him over Howe...

Can somebody explain

A club with slightly crackpot owners, currently bottom of the league, running very close to the FFP limits...and the fans are split between appointing Hughton or Howe!

Yet,  we're a team with slightly crackpot owners, currently top half of the table, running very close to FFP limits....and half the fans believe we would never get anyone decent to replace Mowbray?

It confuses me.

[Vilesinner]

1 hour ago, Ossydave said:

Be interesting to see how Hughton gets on, whilst I would have had no real objections to him as our manager he does seem to rate himself rather highly, he's been holding out for a Premier league job i reckon but nobody has come a calling. Quite a few forest fans seem a bit miffed they picked him over Howe...

I'd certainly take Howe.

[SoldierMo]

The amount of stupid money howe wasted...would make Mowbray the master of transfers

[RevidgeBlue]

48 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Calling Hughton an undoubtedly better manager than Tony Mowbray, when in fact there’s very little tangible evidence to that effect, is definitely working to find a negative in my opinion.

News story breaks about a manager joining a new club and the first reaction is, “well he’s better than our manager”. That’s glass half empty and then some.

Oh do give over.

You sparked the whole unnecessary debate about whether  Mowbray was better than Hughton by quoting some random win stat which is probably skewed somewhat by Mowbray's short and relatively disastrous time at Celtic where there's only one team for them to beat. Just go onto a Celtic message board and ask them what they think of TM. Still the last Celtic manager not to win the League apparently.

Surely no-one would look at Mowbray's career and that of Hughton' objectively and claim TM had been more successful. That said it counts for little who is probably better than who  when we play Forest, it's the result on the day that counts

[Mike E]

1 hour ago, JoeH said:

Calling Hughton an undoubtedly better manager than Tony Mowbray, when in fact there’s very little tangible evidence to that effect, is definitely working to find a negative in my opinion.

News story breaks about a manager joining a new club and the first reaction is, “well he’s better than our manager”. That’s glass half empty and then some.

More promotions from this league and better record of PL survival from fewer games managed isn't 'very little tangible evidence'.

It's certainly better than using win %age, which places Pat Rice as the most successful PL manager ever, and places Michael Appleton as a better PL manager than Arsene Wenger.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Mike E

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, Mike E said:

More promotions from this league and better record of PL survival from fewer games managed isn't 'very little tangible evidence'.

It's certainly better than using win %age, which places Pat Rice as the most successful PL manager ever, and places Michael Appleton as a better PL manager than Arsene Wenger.

And Big Sam as the best England manager of all time.

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont understand how a conversation developing about a manager who many have said they would like here in the past and is relevant due to him being appointed by our next opponent is "working to find negativity." 

Also, regardless of the identities of the individuals concerned, when a team changes manager they usually experience the "new manager bounce" for a few games.

Lamouchi had seemingly got himself in such a rut I'd almost rather he was still there than if they'd appointed Owen Coyle.

Almost.

[Sparks Rover]

3 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Also, regardless of the identities of the individuals concerned, when a team changes manager they usually experience the "new manager bounce" for a few games.

Hughton won't believe his luck.  Promotion squad there 4 games in. I'm putting a bet on them going up

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Oh do give over.

You sparked the whole unnecessary debate

No... someone else started the debate when they said "Hughton is undoubtedly a better manager than Tony Mowbray.". But sure, carry it on, re-write history and drive the whole forum round in circles  

[RevidgeBlue]

3 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Hughton won't believe his luck.  Promotion squad there 4 games in. I'm putting a bet on them going up

Who knows. Things seem to work out for most managers at certain Clubs but not at others.

Like Warnock, Hughton does seem to have a very good overall record at Championship level though. If you'd offered me Hughton or Mowbray 24 hours ago, I'd have taken Hughton like a shot personally.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Surely no-one would look at Mowbray's career and that of Hughton' objectively and claim TM had been more successful.

Nobody did, I just said it was a very risky move to make to claim that one manager is unequivocally a better manager than another. Every job is different, every transfer budget and every owner. I was discrediting the idea that you can put figures on managers, claiming that managers abilities is an opinion, not a fact, and to say that Hughton is undoubtedly better than Mowbray is far from a universally credible fact.

[Bbrovers2288]

There is definitely two types of fans we have here, those who are happy with how things are going and can see no wrong with mowbray and those who disagree and strive for better. I’m in the latter camp, I don’t quite understand folk saying we have had an incredible window. For me we have signed a keeper with potential to be a very good signing- but we need time to tell with that one. A young backup that none of us know anything about- potentially we never see him as a regular is the reality. A very good champ defender bit is he an upgrade on Tosin? I’d suggest probably not. A signing that has exceeded expectation in Dolan but again he will need to find consistency. But overall , are we stronger squad wise than last season? We have a glaring weakness at left back that not been addressed. We have two strikers that have yet to get going, armstrong goes down then we are done for. 
we have had a decent start but old annoyances have already been seen, losing opener when we were the stronger team, not being able to break down a Cardiff side that came to defend and a fairly poor result after gaining some momentum.

Wycombe was pleasing but they are the whipping boys. Sadly because I like ainsworth. Derby again, well dispatched but played them at the right time. 
think a few have got ahead of themselves. Mowbray gets us consistent and steadily in top 6 il tip my hat 

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

No... someone else started the debate when they said "Hughton is undoubtedly a better manager than Tony Mowbray.". But sure, carry it on, re-write history and drive the whole forum round in circles  

Which you then took to a whole new level by quoting a fairly random and meaningless stat in support of your argument.

Light the blue touch paper stand back and whoosh!

Not complaining it's been quite entertaining!

?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

There is definitely two types of fans we have here, those who are happy with how things are going and can see no wrong with mowbray and those who disagree and strive for better.

I really don't think you can put thousands of people into one of only two camps. A persons opinion on recruitment being negative doesn't mean they're unhappy with season ticket prices, someone not being a Tony Mowbray fan doesn't mean they're always negative and believe we'll lose games. 

There's been a wide discussion tonight about the positive people vs the negative people but I think thats a huge oversimplification and a generalisation.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Which you then took to a whole new level by quoting a fairly random and meaningless stat in support of your argument.

 

The stats were quite literally to show that data and factual evidence is extremely hard to determine success for managers. As has been explained. You're either purposefully ignoring that, or you haven't read what you're replying to.

In the post you're referring to I said: "How do you compare the two? What makes him better?"

Then proceeded to show examples as to how you COULD compare them. Finishing with and going on to say that you can't compare managers via data, so to say that factually one manager is better than another is plain wrong.

Edited October 7, 2020 by JoeH

[Bbrovers2288]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I really don't think you can put thousands of people into one of only two camps. A persons opinion on recruitment being negative doesn't mean they're unhappy with season ticket prices, someone not being a Tony Mowbray fan doesn't mean they're always negative and believe we'll lose games. 

There's been a wide discussion tonight about the positive people vs the negative people but I think thats a huge oversimplification and a generalisation.

There is those that won’t be swayed with regards to mowbray- good or bad, is my point 

[Sparks Rover]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

The stats were quite literally to show that data and factual evidence is extremely hard to determine success for managers. As has been explained. You're either purposefully ignoring that, or you haven't read what you're replying to.

Or you can just rely on what you see and use your own judgement.   My judgement is that Hughton is a better manager 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

There is those that won’t be swayed with regards to mowbray- good or bad, is my point 

True but I think the labels of positive and negative camps are perhaps generalised