Let's Talk Tyrhys Dolan

[LDRover]

Dolan must be a favourite of the manager because if he's not getting dropped after his dreadful 'showing' at Plymouth he's never getting dropped.

Same goes for Hedges.

[Forever Blue]

1 hour ago, rigger said:

Siggy, or Hedges

Both of whom have been ineffective there.

[DeeCee]

Still waiting to see what Siggy can do.

[simongarnerisgod]

5 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

Still waiting to see what Siggy can do.

is he still ill or just out of favour,if he is ill then it must be serious

[rigger]

35 minutes ago, Forever Blue said:

Both of whom have been ineffective there.

Equally as ineffective as Dolan.  My three behind the striker at home, would be :  Suki, Cantwell, Weiman. Away a different formation could be used.  

[Forever Blue]

Just now, rigger said:

Equally as ineffective as Dolan.  My three behind the striker at home, would be :  Suki, Cantwell, Weiman. Away a different formation could be used.  

I think we’d all like a bit of Suki at home. 
 

 

[tomphil]

4 hours ago, AndyB said:

He got released beause they thought he wasn't good enough, not because he wouldn't sign a new contract.

 

He got released because they had no academy and seniors already contracted in his position.

[Parsonblue]

3 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

I don’t think Hedges gets anywhere near the scrutiny Dolan gets. Especially considering he’s 29, not 22.

Dolan is a credit to himself for building a career at this level from the scrap heap.

Totally agree.  A young lad who has suffered tragedy in his life with regard to his best friend and who has built a career after being rejected by North End.

He gives 100 per cent every week, never hides, even when having a poor game, and is a more than useful Championship player.  Clearly, Eustace, like previous managers, obviously rates him.  For me he'd always be one of the first names one the teamsheet.  Still only 22 and will get better.  I just hope we can persuade him to stay.

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, DeeCee said:

Still waiting to see what Siggy can do.

I'll start the car for him.

[roversfan99]

6 hours ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

Of the three behind Gueye, I thought he was better than Hedges (who was totally anonymous going forward) and behind Cantwell, but that's only because Cantwell grew into the game a bit more in the second half. 

Dolan's big problem is his lack of physicality, and his lack of pace over longer distances. In games like yesterday where we have hardly any ball, we don't have much pace and the whole team is a bit off with their passing, Dolan just doesn't have the tools to impose himself on the game. 

 

Having said all that, he had a few decent moments and scored (set up?) the winner, so he deserves credit for that. I actually quite like the way that he's developing. He's pretty productive with goals/assists and his decision making is streets ahead of where it was when he first joined. Still only 22 as well. But he's never going to get bigger or quicker, and so I think he's always going to be a player that struggles to get into certain types of games, yesterday being a perfect example. 

Is he "pretty productive" with his end product, and is his decision making "streets ahead" of when he joined? I am not too sure on either.

4 hours ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

To be fair I think all of our attacking midfield/wide players who've been here for any length of time get a bit of stick. Hedges gets plenty of criticism on here (including from me) and Sigurdsson and Markanday are only dodging it because they're out of the team. 

 

Having said that I agree that he's a decent Championship player. I don't know what sort of contract we would need to offer to keep him, but it would be disappointing to see him go for nothing. 

I think our attacking midfielders across a number of years have in the main flattered to deceive, apart from the odd individual (Szmodics and Brereton) who has contributed above and beyond what you would expect from those positions. 

[roversfan99]

Of course, his personal story is a credit from him, released from Preston and dealing with personal tragedy but clearly has done well personally.

He perhaps does get an unfair percentage of criticism compared to other similar attacking players who also fail to do enough often enough, maybe thats to do with his contract as much as anything. Although I did debate with a number on here regarding Hedges who also has been criticised for not doing enough.

I personally think that either he needs to do more to guarantee a starting spot or risk being more of a squad player, and maybe the inability to tie him down comes from him being able to expect a decent wage considering his sheer number of games. I would like the side to be built around Cantwell but he seemingly will be played wide to accomodate Dolan more than the other way round.

[Forever Blue]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 I would like the side to be built around Cantwell but he seemingly will be played wide to accomodate Dolan more than the other way round.

Or Eustace sees Cantwell as more effective out wide because he’s harder to pick up when drifting inside (as per the tactic we’ve discussed numerous times)

I’d imagine it has absolutely nothing to do with ‘accommodating’ Dolan centrally. 

[47er]

34 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Of course, his personal story is a credit from him, released from Preston and dealing with personal tragedy but clearly has done well personally.

He perhaps does get an unfair percentage of criticism compared to other similar attacking players who also fail to do enough often enough, maybe thats to do with his contract as much as anything. Although I did debate with a number on here regarding Hedges who also has been criticised for not doing enough.

I personally think that either he needs to do more to guarantee a starting spot or risk being more of a squad player, and maybe the inability to tie him down comes from him being able to expect a decent wage considering his sheer number of games. I would like the side to be built around Cantwell but he seemingly will be played wide to accomodate Dolan more than the other way round.

I'd rather lose Hedges than Dolan. Hedges is anonymous much of the time.

At least Dolan gets involved on a regular basis.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

26 minutes ago, 47er said:

I'd rather lose Hedges than Dolan. Hedges is anonymous much of the time.

At least Dolan gets involved on a regular basis.

I don’t know what Hedges brings to the party. Most of the time you don’t know he’s playing.

One of our many strange signings. We paid a fee when we could have had him for nothing a few months later.

Edited October 20 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[islander200]

56 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Of course, his personal story is a credit from him, released from Preston and dealing with personal tragedy but clearly has done well personally.

He perhaps does get an unfair percentage of criticism compared to other similar attacking players who also fail to do enough often enough, maybe thats to do with his contract as much as anything. Although I did debate with a number on here regarding Hedges who also has been criticised for not doing enough.

I personally think that either he needs to do more to guarantee a starting spot or risk being more of a squad player, and maybe the inability to tie him down comes from him being able to expect a decent wage considering his sheer number of games. I would like the side to be built around Cantwell but he seemingly will be played wide to accomodate Dolan more than the other way round.

I'd have Cantwell central myself but in the interview he did when he joined he said one of the reasons he chose to come here was because after talks with the manager they were both aligned on the position and role to get the best out of him.

Someone else mentioned it on here might have been Chaddy but it was after a season from playing from the left that Villa bid big money for him.

I'd have him playing as the ten, did he play from the left or central at Rangers?

[47er]

9 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I don’t know what Hedges brings to the party. Most of the time you don’t know he’s playing.

One of our many strange signings. We paid a fee when we could have had him for nothing a few months later.

Being seen to be doing something I suppose?

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, Forever Blue said:

Or Eustace sees Cantwell as more effective out wide because he’s harder to pick up when drifting inside (as per the tactic we’ve discussed numerous times)

I’d imagine it has absolutely nothing to do with ‘accommodating’ Dolan centrally. 

Im just offering my opinion on what I would do. Rather than trying to justify what Eustace is doing.

I accept the idea of him drifting inside especially in tandem with an overlapping Beck. But on the flip side I see benefits in having him central, notably not potentially leaving his full back exposed defensively as he isnt the hardest worker as we saw away at Coventry in particular. But also he is our best player at receiving the ball in tight areas and the most likely to unlock a defence.

That central role in theory anyway is naturally the one where you will get more influence on a game. I dont feel like Dolan has been any more productive central, and I suspect (just a hunch) that both would rather play central if they could choose. I would rather our best attacker plays there with the team built around him more, I dont think that Dolan does enough to justify guaranteed selection personally but he could play from the left.

2 hours ago, 47er said:

I'd rather lose Hedges than Dolan. Hedges is anonymous much of the time.

At least Dolan gets involved on a regular basis.

Hedges would be someone I would happily let go at the end of the season.

Dolan is a more complex one. He is still only 22 but he hasnt really progressed anywhere near as I would have hoped over a number of years. I would rather keep him around but unless he has a real breakthrough season, I wouldnt see him as deserving of being offered a wage befitting a guaranteed regular, or indeed a role as such. But he would expect to be and understandably so as he has played so many games. If he does go then another club at this level will definitely pick him up.

At the end of the season we have ACD, Weimann, Sigurdsson, Hedges and Dolan all at the end of their deals with us. Its a position I would really want us to overhaul as will likely naturally happen barring a sudden series of contract renewals. We need players in these positions to contribute more and we also need some pace.

[bluebruce]

6 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Is he "pretty productive" with his end product

Well, let's do a comparison with Hedges, a much older player who doesn't seem to get as much flak, but is another regular. Just league minutes for simplicity and fairer comparison.

In the 22/23 season:

Hedges: 4 goals, 4 assists in 2,490 minutes. A goal contribution every 311.25 minutes.

Dolan: 4 goals, 6 assists in 1,969 minutes. A goal contribution every 196.9 minutes.

In the 23/24 season:

Hedges: 2 goals, 3 assists in 987 minutes. A goal contribution every 197.4 minutes.

Dolan: 5 goals, 4 assists in 2,339 minutes. A goal contribution every 259.8 minutes.

This season:

Hedges: 1 goal, 1 assist in 680 minutes. A goal contribution every 340 minutes.

Dolan: 2 goals, 2 assists in 748 minutes. A goal contribution every 187 minutes.

So Dolan's figures are quite a lot better except for last season (which for Hedges was a pretty small sample size, though it did include that beautiful goal of the season). In the last 3 seasons, Dolan has 2 seasons whereby his figure is better than Hedges has achieved in any of the 3 seasons. Neither is setting the world on fire, but despite them having similar minutes this season, Hedges doesn't get much of a mention I feel when it comes to criticism despite having overall much worse stats. If I'd bothered with 21/22 it would have been even worse, as Hedges got 1 assist in 11 games, Ty got 3 goals and 2 assists in 37.

Dolan is more productive than most players in that area of the pitch. Siggy's figures stack up similar, with a contribution every 208 minutes last season (1 in his 37 minutes this season but that's an extremely small sample). But you get a much poorer pressing game from him. The now departed Gally managed just 1 every 286 minutes last season, just for illustrative purposes. Weimann has 1 every 218 minutes so far btw.

We've consistently no budget, and nobody else that produces as much overall from those areas of the pitch (thinking of Dolan as a wide player anyway, Cantwell is superior in the hole, though of course you need backups). Of course there are better players out there, but I'd rather not let him go for nothing with nothing to replace him (and Siggy will doubtless be off too). Even if we somehow could afford a better player there he'd be a good squad player with what he chips in.

(Not all addressed at you, just my musings, and some is in response to the excessive criticism some posters give him)

Edited October 21 by bluebruce

[Forever Blue]

6 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Im just offering my opinion on what I would do. Rather than trying to justify what Eustace is doing.

I accept the idea of him drifting inside especially in tandem with an overlapping Beck. But on the flip side I see benefits in having him central, notably not potentially leaving his full back exposed defensively as he isnt the hardest worker as we saw away at Coventry in particular. But also he is our best player at receiving the ball in tight areas and the most likely to unlock a defence.

That central role in theory anyway is naturally the one where you will get more influence on a game. I dont feel like Dolan has been any more productive central, and I suspect (just a hunch) that both would rather play central if they could choose. I would rather our best attacker plays there with the team built around him more, I dont think that Dolan does enough to justify guaranteed selection personally but he could play from the left.

Playing centrally doesn’t guarantee more ‘influence’ and it certainly doesn’t mean Cantwell would be better than Dolan there. Dolan can play with his back to goal, is excellent in tight spaces, and can spin off and run in behind.

Cantwell is better facing the oppositions goal with the ball at his feet so he can create. He gets a lot of the ball on the left because that is where the space is. Playing centrally means playing in more congested areas. 

And maybe Cantwell wants to play on the left. 

[47er]

6 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

 

Dolan is a more complex one. He is still only 22 but he hasnt really progressed anywhere near as I would have hoped over a number of years. I would rather keep him around but unless he has a real breakthrough season, I wouldnt see him as deserving of being offered a wage befitting a guaranteed regular, or indeed a role as such. But he would expect to be and understandably so as he has played so many games. If he does go then another club at this level will definitely pick him up.

At the end of the season we have ACD, Weimann, Sigurdsson, Hedges and Dolan all at the end of their deals with us. Its a position I would really want us to overhaul as will likely naturally happen barring a sudden series of contract renewals. We need players in these positions to contribute more and we also need some pace.

I'm certainly not arguing that Dolan is a gem we should fight like crazy to keep. But I do think he is a genuine Championship standard player and that's the division we are in, and likely to remain in unless we get relegated down the line.

[roverblue]

I think given Cantwell’s lack of defensive ability means he will be moved central, his tracking back is non existent. At least Dolan puts a shift in with that regard along with Hedges so would rather they stayed out wide. 

[roversfan99]

5 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Well, let's do a comparison with Hedges, a much older player who doesn't seem to get as much flak, but is another regular. Just league minutes for simplicity and fairer comparison.

In the 22/23 season:

Hedges: 4 goals, 4 assists in 2,490 minutes. A goal contribution every 311.25 minutes.

Dolan: 4 goals, 6 assists in 1,969 minutes. A goal contribution every 196.9 minutes.

In the 23/24 season:

Hedges: 2 goals, 3 assists in 987 minutes. A goal contribution every 197.4 minutes.

Dolan: 5 goals, 4 assists in 2,339 minutes. A goal contribution every 259.8 minutes.

This season:

Hedges: 1 goal, 1 assist in 680 minutes. A goal contribution every 340 minutes.

Dolan: 2 goals, 2 assists in 748 minutes. A goal contribution every 187 minutes.

So Dolan's figures are quite a lot better except for last season (which for Hedges was a pretty small sample size, though it did include that beautiful goal of the season). In the last 3 seasons, Dolan has 2 seasons whereby his figure is better than Hedges has achieved in any of the 3 seasons. Neither is setting the world on fire, but despite them having similar minutes this season, Hedges doesn't get much of a mention I feel when it comes to criticism despite having overall much worse stats. If I'd bothered with 21/22 it would have been even worse, as Hedges got 1 assist in 11 games, Ty got 3 goals and 2 assists in 37.

Dolan is more productive than most players in that area of the pitch. Siggy's figures stack up similar, with a contribution every 208 minutes last season (1 in his 37 minutes this season but that's an extremely small sample). But you get a much poorer pressing game from him. The now departed Gally managed just 1 every 286 minutes last season, just for illustrative purposes. Weimann has 1 every 218 minutes so far btw.

We've consistently no budget, and nobody else that produces as much overall from those areas of the pitch (thinking of Dolan as a wide player anyway, Cantwell is superior in the hole, though of course you need backups). Of course there are better players out there, but I'd rather not let him go for nothing with nothing to replace him (and Siggy will doubtless be off too). Even if we somehow could afford a better player there he'd be a good squad player with what he chips in.

(Not all addressed at you, just my musings, and some is in response to the excessive criticism some posters give him)

I would agree on Hedges and have said a few times lately that he should certainly not be a regular and that I would move him on in the summer.

I would also certainly agree that I would rather not let Dolan leave for free. I think the issue might be because hes been a regular, he might want a wage representative of that which is fair enough, but I am not yet convinced that I want him to continue as a guaranteed starter without seeing a bit more from him.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, Forever Blue said:

Playing centrally doesn’t guarantee more ‘influence’ and it certainly doesn’t mean Cantwell would be better than Dolan there. Dolan can play with his back to goal, is excellent in tight spaces, and can spin off and run in behind.

Cantwell is better facing the oppositions goal with the ball at his feet so he can create. He gets a lot of the ball on the left because that is where the space is. Playing centrally means playing in more congested areas. 

And maybe Cantwell wants to play on the left. 

great post and what RF99 seems to be forgetting here that Cantwell will have 2 or 3 man around him marking and tackling instead of one when he plays from the left. Eustace is allowing to roam from the left and isn't pigeonholing into one position and he must stay there. 

Look at his career at Norwich where he was very good playing from the left and creating chances and scoring goals.   

[Admiral Nelsen]

47 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Is he "pretty productive" with his end product, and is his decision making "streets ahead" of when he joined? I am not too sure on either.

I think our attacking midfielders across a number of years have in the main flattered to deceive, apart from the odd individual (Szmodics and Brereton) who has contributed above and beyond what you would expect from those positions. 

 

Yes, pretty productive. Wouldn't go any further than that, but 13 goals/assists since the start of last season (which he missed a decent chunk of through injury) is decent. Not brilliant, but if we had another one or two with those sorts of contributions then we wouldn't have relied on Szmodics as much as we did.

And I think his decision making is miles better too. When he first arrived he was a bundle of energy who would run at players, but his final ball was like rolling a dice and he'd regularly run himself into blind alleys. Now he takes fewer touches and when he gets the ball in the right areas (not often enough) looks to pick a pass more. You could never see him providing the sort of assist like did at Leeds away a few years ago, for instance. I'm not saying he's a world beater and he'll always be up against it being as small as he is, but I think he's developing pretty well all things considered. 

Definitely agree with your second point. It seems like we've had rocks or diamonds up front for a long while. Or in Brereton's case, rocks that turn into diamonds!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

4 hours ago, roverblue said:

I think given Cantwell’s lack of defensive ability means he will be moved central, his tracking back is non existent. At least Dolan puts a shift in with that regard along with Hedges so would rather they stayed out wide. 

Yeah, I wonder who Beck would prefer to be helping him out on the left hand side ?