Brockhall STC - planning permission application ?

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, jim mk2 said:

The big IF.

It hasn't happened in 11 years - why should that change?

It's a fair question in the circumstances jim, I believe there is a desire to effect the necessary change, whether or not it actually comes off is another thing entirely of course and we'll have to wait and see.

[jim mk2]

9 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

It's a fair question in the circumstances jim, I believe there is a desire to effect the necessary change, whether or not it actually comes off is another thing entirely of course and we'll have to wait and see.

You have to keep being suspicious of those running the club though when important events such as the sale of the training ground only comes to the light thanks to the vigilance of fans scrawling through the internet. Why the secrecy?  The club's dysfunctional nature continues.

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

You have to keep being suspicious of those running the club though when important events such as the sale of the training ground only comes to the light thanks to the vigilance of fans scrawling through the internet. Why the secrecy?  The club's dysfunctional nature continues.

I know, suspicion is natural under the circumstances.

In the latter instance I'd put it down to sheer incompetence and running the Club in such an amateurish fashion such that newsworthy events can't be released in a managed fashion at the appropriate time by the Club and as potential PR opportunities where appropriate.

[Dreams of 1995]

2 hours ago, JHRover said:

I think the suspicious thing is how quickly we went from one thing to the other. In February/March all the talk from Maggott and the Club and some people on here was how it was a good idea to amalgamate training sites into one, claims from the club that this was a decision being made to improve facilities, that it would require further owner investment and was being done to usher in a bright future for the football club.

By April that grand exciting scheme had been abandoned, by June there was a transfer out of the club's control and by October we are now being told that this was a necessary step due to the pandemic and FFP rules. Strange how those thiings didn't come up in Waggott's appraisal in February. Back then it was all hunky dory and Venkys were tipping extra cash in to build the super duper new training centre.

My assessment - this is all smoke and mirrors - the original plan was nothing more than a cash grab dressed up under the guise of improved facilities, they then hit the buffers on that due to immense public opposition and instead have quickly moved on to plan B which is underway with this transfer. I think more will come out in the months to come but unfortunately we will have to rely on supporters going and doing their own research rather than any transparency from the club.

I think people interpreting this as a mere accounting stunt to dodge FFP issues are going to be surprised in time to come. Hope I'm wrong because the last thing I want is to lose the crown jewels but I think that is what we are seeing here.

I do get the suspicion and I am firmly of the belief this lot are no good for us, but on this occasion I have to agree with the likes of Rev that this really doesn’t appear to be a controversial move 

As RoverCanadas post indicates we would still have fallen foul of the FFP rules without this sale. It does tally up with the late accounting and one would have to assume they were working out the realistic sale of the training ground land with the required amount to balance the books 

For what it’s worth I am of the belief they knew they needed a cash injection above what they were initially prepared to put in, hence the proposed sale of the ground. This training ground financial move cements in my mind that the Venkys knew everything about the housing development proposal. Once they realised the public outcry they resorted to plan b - stump the money up themselves. 
 

This does leave us in the precarious position of the club being able to be sold without the rights to the training facility. So Venkys could sell BRFC for peanuts, but then hold them to ransom on the training ground rent and ultimately price them out. They may then have grounds to remove covenants and build residential property on it although that will also be met with fierce opposition. But in terms of the short term the same company owns both Rovers and the ground and one would have to assume to make either asset desirable you would have to sell both togetheR. I certainly don’t think they’ll be able to sell the STC to housing developers whilst still owning Rovers. 
 

And a real hypothetical situation - would you lose the STC land in order to rid Venkys from Rovers? Curious as to people’s answers on that one 

[Rogerb]

At the end of the day the club no longer owns an asset which it previously did and is now incurring an annual expenditure to use it using money which may previously have been used too offer players improved contracts who now we'll leave for naff all. How is this a good deal for the club?

[RevidgeBlue]

7 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

At the end of the day the club no longer owns an asset which it previously did and is now incurring an annual expenditure to use it using money which may previously have been used too offer players improved contracts who now we'll leave for naff all. How is this a good deal for the club?

Hypothetically there's now £16m more leeway to offer said players a bit more.

And presumably it would take the V's about 20 years to get the £16m back even at a commercial rate.

Edited October 28, 2021 by RevidgeBlue

[Rogerb]

5 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Hypothetically there's now £16m more leeway to offer said players a bit more.

 

The 16 million has already been spent there is nowt left. Hence this deal done 4 months ago lenihan Nyambe and rothwell no further forward in re signing if there were funds available for increased offers surely we would have seen progress in these negotiations. In my opinion it would have been better to take the hit of the transfer embargo. It would have focussed mowbray,s mind.

 

[Crimpshrine]

4 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Hypothetically there's now £16m more leeway to offer said players a bit more.

And presumably it would take the V's about 20 years to get the £16m back even at a commercial rate.

Do we even know where the £16 million has gone? It may not even be recorded as income for the club - it may go to VLL who can actually do what they want with it.

Assuming it is income for the club, I don't think there will be any extra cash because this £16 million will be offset against the annual losses and VLL will put in £16 million less than usual. It may help to keep the figures within FFP rules but I doubt it will make a difference to the club budget.

 

[Rogerb]

14 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

 

And presumably it would take the V's about 20 years to get the £16m back even at a commercial rate.

If the V's are raising a 13 million mortgage as suggested with Rovers paying the interest in the form as a rent at £750,000 as suggested by Phil then they have got the vast majority of the money back immediately.

[Mattyblue]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

 

Has much of their decision making up to now been awful? Definitely.

Can it change? Definitely.

Will it change? Who knows, but we'll never have a better financial platform from which to operate IF they can get the operational side of the Club right.

Can’t knock your optimism, but surely even you must have a tipping point when you’ll realise that all these ‘ifs’ are never going to come to pass?

Edited October 28, 2021 by Mattyblue

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I know, suspicion is natural under the circumstances.

In the latter instance I'd put it down to sheer incompetence and running the Club in such an amateurish fashion such that newsworthy events can't be released in a managed fashion at the appropriate time by the Club and as potential PR opportunities where appropriate.

Which is exactly why I have no faith or trust in them. It's been nigh on eleven years now and still we have insidious people involved, veils of secrecy and sheer incompetence.

Twas ever thus.

[islander200]

52 minutes ago, Crimpshrine said:

Do we even know where the £16 million has gone? It may not even be recorded as income for the club - it may go to VLL who can actually do what they want with it.

Assuming it is income for the club, I don't think there will be any extra cash because this £16 million will be offset against the annual losses and VLL will put in £16 million less than usual. It may help to keep the figures within FFP rules but I doubt it will make a difference to the club budget.

 

But yet they were willing to fund transfers up to this summer,?

I know they are odd fuckers but they just made a 10 million profit on a player, and are looking like making another profit on Brererton.

In mowbrays reign they have stumped up the cash for the squad, loads of players have come through the door and Raya and Armstrong out as first teamers.

When we lose the spend from our first summer back in the championship then more leeway to spend.

I really do believe some money will be reinvested into the squad next summer

Edited October 28, 2021 by islander200

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Hypothetically there's now £16m more leeway to offer said players a bit more.

And presumably it would take the V's about 20 years to get the £16m back even at a commercial rate.

Let's cut to the chase here...

The training ground was gifted to Blackburn Rovers by the generous Philanthropy of Jack Walker.

Our present BILLIONAIRE owners have done a quick fire sale and we are now left potentially having to rent at cost.

A quick,short term way of raising money that very well may not be re-invested..not a good outlook for the future.

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[Sparks Rover]

16 minutes ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

A quick,short term way of raising money that very well may not be re-invested..not a good outlook for the future.

 

They've basically remortgaged the training centre.  Sale and leaseback is very common for businesses wanting to realise an injection of cash.  The new business will  be borrowing at a very low rate which will be amortised across a period of time.  The benefit is that the payments can be off set against Corp tax and profits taxes....its probably a very clever because the accounts across the group will balance out.  That's my opinion.

 

This made me piss my pants when we talk about the upkeep of the facilities....about 25 seconds in.....🙄

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[tomphil]

There is no 16 million why oh why do people fall for that just like there was no 15 million or % from Armstrong.

Like virtually every other penny that comes into Rovers by owners or whatever it all goes to balancing the books. Money already spent and the huge back hole plugged again for a short time.

The only good this has done is save the club from the owners possibly having to put it into admin. Even that will be debatable if it's good or not in some eyes.

[K-Hod]

Whilst it obviously could be the case that our owners have played a clever accounting trick, it would fly in the face of everything else they’ve done in the last 11 years. If they have done, then fair play, but, they haven’t exactly got the best track record, have they?

[DE.]

3 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Whilst it obviously could be the case that our owners have played a clever accounting trick, it would fly in the face of everything else they’ve done in the last 11 years. If they have done, then fair play, but, they haven’t exactly got the best track record, have they?

It seems like they treat our FFP obligations in the same way the treat everything at the club - haphazardly and only reacting when they absolutely have to. Our finances had spiralled in 2015 to the point where we did enter a proper embargo and apparently were using emergency loans to cover expenses. At that point some action seemed to be taken as we were out of the embargo by January and they hired those two auditing firms - in summer 2016 if memory serves? After that it seems to have gone back to the old ways of letting us sail close to the wind in regards to FFP, and then acting when we were under the 'soft' embargo, perhaps using this buy and lease back 'trick' at the last minute to keep things balanced. 

[RevidgeBlue]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Can’t knock your optimism, but surely even you must have a tipping point when you’ll realise that all these ‘ifs’ are never going to come to pass?

Yep.

I'd say two more years would be the sort of timescale  I'd have in my own mind.

I do believe the desire to effect change is there but if massive improvements on and off the pitch aren't at least well underway by then I'd accept it was unlikely to ever happen.

[yankfan]

2 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

They've basically remortgaged the training centre.  Sale and leaseback is very common for businesses wanting to realise an injection of cash.  The new business will  be borrowing at a very low rate which will be amortised across a period of time.  The benefit is that the payments can be off set against Corp tax and profits taxes....its probably a very clever because the accounts across the group will balance out.  That's my opinion.

 

This made me piss my pants when we talk about the upkeep of the facilities....about 25 seconds in.....🙄

 

 

 

 

Did you say profit tax?  What world will this club ever turn a profit? 

[Sparks Rover]

32 minutes ago, yankfan said:

Did you say profit tax?  What world will this club ever turn a profit? 

I'm on about across their group....they will have good accountants working it.

[islander200]

1 hour ago, K-Hod said:

Whilst it obviously could be the case that our owners have played a clever accounting trick, it would fly in the face of everything else they’ve done in the last 11 years. If they have done, then fair play, but, they haven’t exactly got the best track record, have they?

I just dont get what other reason there is for this  other than making the books a little better.

Why would selling it to another company set up by themselves and putting 16 million into the club make it easier for housing to be put there?

In owning the club if there was a hint housing wouldnt be oppossed they could have sold it to developers directly so why the charade of doing it this way?

[RevidgeBlue]

2 hours ago, Rogerb said:

If the V's are raising a 13 million mortgage as suggested with Rovers paying the interest in the form as a rent at £750,000 as suggested by Phil then they have got the vast majority of the money back immediately.

They won't have got it back immediately at all they would still have a £13m mortgage to pay back!

Club money is their money at the end of the day. And it's not as if we are turning a profit and they're skimming off the proceeds anyway, we're actually making huge losses and they're having to make up the difference to keep us afloat.

(Yes I know they've brought it on themselves due to their inadequate running of the Club before everyone starts)

[47er]

6 hours ago, islander200 said:

But like Revidge says it doesnt take a finance expert to know the club were skating on thin ice regarding ffp.

The accounts show the owners have put in the max they are allowed in this cycle.

For goodness sake, it doesn't matter how much money you put in if it isn't spent wisely and you don't take responsibility for it?

In the current situation they could put any amount in but it would be wasted like the rest has been.

In any case most of the money they put in is to settle debt or rather interest on debt their practices created.

Most of it is about accounting not football and merely has the effect of enabling the club to stumble form one crisis to the next.

[islander200]

3 hours ago, tomphil said:

There is no 16 million why oh why do people fall for that just like there was no 15 million or % from Armstrong.

Like virtually every other penny that comes into Rovers by owners or whatever it all goes to balancing the books. Money already spent and the huge back hole plugged again for a short time.

The only good this has done is save the club from the owners possibly having to put it into admin. Even that will be debatable if it's good or not in some eyes.

They spent to make the black hole in the first place.

There is nothing to suggest we were on the brink of admin.Even this summer not a lot was spent but a little was.The owners simply cant put in more money at this point without exceeding what is allowed through owner support.

Im sounding like a venky apologist so i will make my position clear I think they have zero interest and have no plan and repeatedly make the same mistakes but they have put money into the club through transfers.

They wouldnt put the club on the market first before considering Admin?

This has all been seen before (not talking about training ground)we go through periods of spending then it stops then it starts again...there are 141 million reasons to suggest the venkys didnt come for quick buck, a lot of factors support that viewpoint imo.Its quite clear from finance experts alligned with the accounts that this money was needed otherwise the threat of  sanctions.Thats not to say when the owners are allowed to throw more money down the drain they wont do.

 

[47er]

4 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

They've basically remortgaged the training centre.  Sale and leaseback is very common for businesses wanting to realise an injection of cash.  The new business will  be borrowing at a very low rate which will be amortised across a period of time.  The benefit is that the payments can be off set against Corp tax and profits taxes....its probably a very clever because the accounts across the group will balance out.  That's my opinion.

 

This made me piss my pants when we talk about the upkeep of the facilities....about 25 seconds in.....🙄

 

 

 

 

Brilliant! Says it all , Literally falling apart.