Summer transfer window 2021.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

and what do you think it would say about Buckley...? If it has any stats on him.at all based on his low starting numbers.

John Buckley has played 864 minutes for Rovers this season. More than enough football for a data set that's a fair and true reflection of his abilities.

Wyscout data basically backs up most peoples thoughts on him anyway having had a glance at it. Runs hard, wins ball back high, can pass well - issues surrounding aerial ability in a central midfield role, shooting tame too.

[Guest]

On the data analysis topic (which I'm really happy to see is being discussed on this years Summer Transfer Thread), somebody commented that they don't believe the club would have a ready made list available of all the players they'd want for each position on the pitch, but I know for a fact that this is exactly what we & most clubs have in place.

We have a #1, #2, #3, #4 etc.. for each position. That list doesn't get thrown into the Black Sea on a hard drive when your HoR moves to Sunderland. I'd imagine the bulk of pre-summer work is already completed. It comes down to your manager, and apparently Mark Venus who we are told deals with the negotiations, to actually get them across the line and find the right deals. You might end up with your #3 target in one area because #1 and #2 weren't attainable.

Most clubs recruitment works this way, and the primary way in which said lists are devised is by first whittling down massive amounts of players using data providers like Wyscout & Scout7. It's true that a scouts eye still massively affects the potential for a player to move to a club. Data *can* flatter to deceive in certain circumstances, but on the whole, it's used in almost every aspect of both recruitment and match planning in 2021.

An argument could be made that perhaps in the past, the current managerial team haven't used the data effectively, signings players they know and trust from previous clubs and through previous connections. The Thomas Kaminski deal was proactive and pragmatic. He's not perfect but he's the closest we've had to perfect in goal for a LONG time, regardless of the division we're in. I also think that the Harry Pickering signing, one which bears no Middlesbrough bearings on the face of it, shows that the data is starting to take over our recruitment.

I spoke with a coach at Liverpool's academy this morning (thank GOD Grassroots football has returned, a saving grace given Rovers current form!) and it was really interesting to hear him talk about the ways in which data and post-match/training analysis has changed the way we're developing and recruiting talents within the elite game. I think as a club, I'd love to see us embrace this approach even more, and whilst I understand fears to that idea, I think it may be a risk worth taking given the current position we're in and supposed budget we'll be on.

Edited April 3, 2021 by JoeH
grammar

[K-Hod]

39 minutes ago, JoeH said:

John Buckley has played 864 minutes for Rovers this season. More than enough football for a data set that's a fair and true reflection of his abilities.

Wyscout data basically backs up most peoples thoughts on him anyway having had a glance at it. Runs hard, wins ball back high, can pass well - issues surrounding aerial ability in a central midfield role, shooting tame too.

All the more reason to play him as a ‘false 9’ yesterday.....

[LDRover]

1 hour ago, JacknOry said:

I heard about before they started using it 5 years ago so na

Funny that in your history for last 4 years, you have never mentioned it once in a single post except the last week (4 times). You now mention it all the time but knew about it for years...ok.

You just heard of it and making up stories.

It's a bugger that search function isn't it?!!!

[JacknOry]

4 hours ago, JoeH said:

On the data analysis topic (which I'm really happy to see is being discussed on this years Summer Transfer Thread), somebody commented that they don't believe the club would have a ready made list available of all the players they'd want for each position on the pitch, but I know for a fact that this is exactly what we & most clubs have in place.

We have a #1, #2, #3, #4 etc.. for each position. That list doesn't get thrown into the Black Sea on a hard drive when your HoR moves to Sunderland. I'd imagine the bulk of pre-summer work is already completed. It comes down to your manager, and apparently Mark Venus who we are told deals with the negotiations, to actually get them across the line and find the right deals. You might end up with your #3 target in one area because #1 and #2 weren't attainable.

Most clubs recruitment works this way, and the primary way in which said lists are devised is by first whittling down massive amounts of players using data providers like Wyscout & Scout7. It's true that a scouts eye still massively affects the potential for a player to move to a club. Data *can* flatter to deceive in certain circumstances, but on the whole, it's used in almost every aspect of both recruitment and match planning in 2021.

An argument could be made that perhaps in the past, the current managerial team haven't used the data effectively, signings players they know and trust from previous clubs and through previous connections. The Thomas Kaminski deal was proactive and pragmatic. He's not perfect but he's the closest we've had to perfect in goal for a LONG time, regardless of the division we're in. I also think that the Harry Pickering signing, one which bears no Middlesbrough bearings on the face of it, shows that the data is starting to take over our recruitment.

I spoke with a coach at Liverpool's academy this morning (thank GOD Grassroots football has returned, a saving grace given Rovers current form!) and it was really interesting to hear him talk about the ways in which data and post-match/training analysis has changed the way we're developing and recruiting talents within the elite game. I think as a club, I'd love to see us embrace this approach even more, and whilst I understand fears to that idea, I think it may be a risk worth taking given the current position we're in and supposed budget we'll be on.

Sorry but I find you very condescending.

[Ghost7]

Surely Bournemouth is his last game in charge.

[matt83]

4 hours ago, Ghost7 said:

Surely Bournemouth is his last game in charge.

I wish I could say I believed it was. But even if we lost 10-0 I just don’t see it. He’s never going to walk, his bezzy mate won’t sack him and I’d be astonished if the Venkys know we’re playing or where we are in the league. He has an autonomy unrivalled in football management.  

[chaddyrovers]

13 hours ago, JoeH said:

On the data analysis topic (which I'm really happy to see is being discussed on this years Summer Transfer Thread), somebody commented that they don't believe the club would have a ready made list available of all the players they'd want for each position on the pitch, but I know for a fact that this is exactly what we & most clubs have in place.

We have a #1, #2, #3, #4 etc.. for each position. That list doesn't get thrown into the Black Sea on a hard drive when your HoR moves to Sunderland. I'd imagine the bulk of pre-summer work is already completed. It comes down to your manager, and apparently Mark Venus who we are told deals with the negotiations, to actually get them across the line and find the right deals. You might end up with your #3 target in one area because #1 and #2 weren't attainable.

Most clubs recruitment works this way, and the primary way in which said lists are devised is by first whittling down massive amounts of players using data providers like Wyscout & Scout7. It's true that a scouts eye still massively affects the potential for a player to move to a club. Data *can* flatter to deceive in certain circumstances, but on the whole, it's used in almost every aspect of both recruitment and match planning in 2021

Thankyou Joe, for passing on your information that Rovers do operate the way I was describing to @roversfan99and that you agree with me that must of the pre season if not all will already be completed. Its now down to Mowbray, Venus and Waggott to deliver the signings we need if they are still here. 

Why is Mark Venus involved in negotiations? Isn't he the assistant manager not director of football according to the Club website?

13 hours ago, JoeH said:

An argument could be made that perhaps in the past, the current managerial team haven't used the data effectively, signings players they know and trust from previous clubs and through previous connections. The Thomas Kaminski deal was proactive and pragmatic. He's not perfect but he's the closest we've had to perfect in goal for a LONG time, regardless of the division we're in. I also think that the Harry Pickering signing, one which bears no Middlesbrough bearings on the face of it, shows that the data is starting to take over our recruitment.

I don't think Mowbray has used the recruitment properly last summer apart from Kaminski and Stergiakis. Did the recruitment department recommend Pears, Ayala, Douglas, Trybull, Downing?

12 hours ago, K-Hod said:

All the more reason to play him as a ‘false 9’ yesterday.....

and Gallagher on the wing again 

[47er]

13 hours ago, JoeH said:

On the data analysis topic (which I'm really happy to see is being discussed on this years Summer Transfer Thread), somebody commented that they don't believe the club would have a ready made list available of all the players they'd want for each position on the pitch, but I know for a fact that this is exactly what we & most clubs have in place.

We have a #1, #2, #3, #4 etc.. for each position. That list doesn't get thrown into the Black Sea on a hard drive when your HoR moves to Sunderland. I'd imagine the bulk of pre-summer work is already completed. It comes down to your manager, and apparently Mark Venus who we are told deals with the negotiations, to actually get them across the line and find the right deals. You might end up with your #3 target in one area because #1 and #2 weren't attainable.

Most clubs recruitment works this way, and the primary way in which said lists are devised is by first whittling down massive amounts of players using data providers like Wyscout & Scout7. It's true that a scouts eye still massively affects the potential for a player to move to a club. Data *can* flatter to deceive in certain circumstances, but on the whole, it's used in almost every aspect of both recruitment and match planning in 2021.

An argument could be made that perhaps in the past, the current managerial team haven't used the data effectively, signings players they know and trust from previous clubs and through previous connections. The Thomas Kaminski deal was proactive and pragmatic. He's not perfect but he's the closest we've had to perfect in goal for a LONG time, regardless of the division we're in. I also think that the Harry Pickering signing, one which bears no Middlesbrough bearings on the face of it, shows that the data is starting to take over our recruitment.

I spoke with a coach at Liverpool's academy this morning (thank GOD Grassroots football has returned, a saving grace given Rovers current form!) and it was really interesting to hear him talk about the ways in which data and post-match/training analysis has changed the way we're developing and recruiting talents within the elite game. I think as a club, I'd love to see us embrace this approach even more, and whilst I understand fears to that idea, I think it may be a risk worth taking given the current position we're in and supposed budget we'll be on.

We seem to draw up lists for every summer but other clubs get there first. There's a long list of them.

 

[tomphil]

13 minutes ago, 47er said:

We seem to draw up lists for every summer but other clubs get there first. There's a long list of them.

 

Yeah they are really good at these A/B/C lists it's almost like they are trying to find people something to do.

They only really need the C list and a list of potential loanees.

[RevidgeBlue]

11 hours ago, JacknOry said:

Sorry but I find you very condescending.

Or perhaps he has a vested interest in the increased use of stats and technology.

[RevidgeBlue]

15 hours ago, JoeH said:

 It comes down to your manager, and apparently Mark Venus who we are told deals with the negotiations, to actually get them across the line and find the right deals. You might end up with your #3 target in one area because #1 and #2 weren't attainable.

Boom!

And there you have it. You could have the greatest analysis system in the world but that's where it instantly all goes up in smoke.

[perthblue02]

3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Why is Mark Venus involved in negotiations? Isn't he the assistant manager not director of football according to the Club website?

All players need somewhere to live 😉

[Guest]

13 hours ago, JacknOry said:

Sorry but I find you very condescending.

It's a topic I talk about because I have a knowledge of it, if you find that condescending then I can only apologise. You'll find there's not many threads I talk much in, because I don't purport to have such a deep knowledge on any and every subject. I don't really see the need for this comment, either "Ignore" me or ignore me.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Boom!

And there you have it. You could have the greatest analysis system in the world but that's where it instantly all goes up in smoke.

Agreed, it's a big frustration. There are some signs of that changing but with our new manager, I'd like to see someone who's happy to embrace new ideas.

[RevidgeBlue]

2 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Agreed, it's a big frustration. There are some signs of that changing but with our new manager, I'd like to see someone who's happy to embrace new ideas.

I freely admit I'm old fashioned and am not overly fond of the use of technology.

For me if you fancy a player, nothing beats the manager going to watch him at Hartlepool on a wet and windy Tuesday night like Dalglish used to do.

But, as someone who knows nothing about the technology whatsoever, does it give an indication of a player's wage demands?

If it churns out that the data shows the best options for us are Players A B C and D etc and we spend time pursuing them but upon enquiry those players are out of our financial reach it's next to useless isn't it?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

But, as someone who knows nothing about the technology whatsoever, does it give an indication of a player's wage demands?

 

Not really no, that's all traditional manual labour. Weirdly it seems to be Mark Venus' role to run player negotiations, do we know why?

[chaddyrovers]

10 minutes ago, JoeH said:

It's a topic I talk about because I have a knowledge of it, if you find that condescending then I can only apologise. You'll find there's not many threads I talk much in, because I don't purport to have such a deep knowledge on any and every subject. I don't really see the need for this comment, either "Ignore" me or ignore me.

Keep discussing Joe. I find your post both interesting and adding to the debate of how much data and scouting is involve in new signings

8 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Agreed, it's a big frustration. There are some signs of that changing but with our new manager, I'd like to see someone who's happy to embrace new ideas.

Do you have suggestions who that manager/head coach would be? 

Would you be in favour Sporting Director/head coach that embrace these new modern methods? Allowing the head coach to focus on training, tactics and on the field matters. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Do you have suggestions who that manager/head coach would be? 

Not really, my knowledge of foreign managers for example is extremely limited so it would be foolish to pluck a name out of thin air. In terms of English managers I was convinced for a long time we'd end up with something really dross like Nigel Adkins but thankfully he's got himself a move now. 

I'd assume that the younger the manager perhaps the more open to new ideas they'd be, but again that's just guessing. 

Not a huge believer in the sentiments of Gareth Ainsworth/hometown club thing either personally.

[chaddyrovers]

9 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Not really, my knowledge of foreign managers for example is extremely limited so it would be foolish to pluck a name out of thin air. In terms of English managers I was convinced for a long time we'd end up with something really dross like Nigel Adkins but thankfully he's got himself a move now. 

I'd assume that the younger the manager perhaps the more open to new ideas they'd be, but again that's just guessing. 

Not a huge believer in the sentiments of Gareth Ainsworth/hometown club thing either personally.

Thanks for reply. 

I read this week that Karl Robinson is very open to new ideas and data. So it did make me wonder if we could go for him. 

Nixon was saying yesterday that Rovers would look foreign if we were replacing Mowbray. But wouldn;t reveal any names

I wouldnt have mind Nigel Adkins to be honest. 

[OldEwoodBlue]

12 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Not really, my knowledge of foreign managers for example is extremely limited so it would be foolish to pluck a name out of thin air. In terms of English managers I was convinced for a long time we'd end up with something really dross like Nigel Adkins but thankfully he's got himself a move now. 

I'd assume that the younger the manager perhaps the more open to new ideas they'd be, but again that's just guessing. 

Not a huge believer in the sentiments of Gareth Ainsworth/hometown club thing either personally.

You don't need knowledge of managers Joe.

Like Pasha... you only need the current SEM / HSH client list.

"It's not what you know, it's who you know"

[windymiller7]

I can see it now "can you export that lot to an excel spreadsheet, I know how to use that. Cheers"

Right, ok, hmm. Column heading.......there it is, Former Clubs. Erm............(shouts from his office door) "Lindsay! How do you use that filter function on excel again?"......."ok cheers"

Ok, little thing that looks like a torch (click), aha! There you are, deselect all. (Scrolls) Middlesbrough (click).

"Tony! I've got that list you wanted mate"

[RevidgeBlue]

11 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Not really no, that's all traditional manual labour. Weirdly it seems to be Mark Venus' role to run player negotiations, do we know why?

Mowbray was quoted at Coventry as saying that Venus was some kind of financial whizz who was good at juggling figures about so presumably that's one of the reasons why he has the job here.

So all other things being equal a young player has the choice to come to either Man Ure or Liverpool or Rovers and we can offer more game time. They wheel out Ferguson and Dalglish and we've got ..................ermmm Mark Venus.

Wonder where they're going to go?

Hundreds (?) of thousands of pounds on new technology wasted and countless man hours down the pan.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

52 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I freely admit I'm old fashioned and am not overly fond of the use of technology.

For me if you fancy a player, nothing beats the manager going to watch him at Hartlepool on a wet and windy Tuesday night like Dalglish used to do.

But, as someone who knows nothing about the technology whatsoever, does it give an indication of a player's wage demands?

If it churns out that the data shows the best options for us are Players A B C and D etc and we spend time pursuing them but upon enquiry those players are out of our financial reach it's next to useless isn't it?

I’m not over impressed with the statistical approach either. I remember one season MGP came top of the stats regarding tracking back. That looked really impressive until you realised that was all he did. He would run back with the opposing right back/right winger ok, but he never did anything to block the crosses coming in.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[roversfan99]

5 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Thankyou Joe, for passing on your information that Rovers do operate the way I was describing to @roversfan99and that you agree with me that must of the pre season if not all will already be completed. Its now down to Mowbray, Venus and Waggott to deliver the signings we need if they are still here. 

Why is Mark Venus involved in negotiations? Isn't he the assistant manager not director of football according to the Club website?

I don't think Mowbray has used the recruitment properly last summer apart from Kaminski and Stergiakis. Did the recruitment department recommend Pears, Ayala, Douglas, Trybull, Downing?

and Gallagher on the wing again 

Joe may claim knowledge on data etc and how it is used, but his opinion is no more valid than anyone elses, nor is is it factual. He does not know the exact inner workings at Rovers, or indeed if we have a list of numerous targets and are well organised behind the scenes, and of course even more importantly, if our targets are any good. I have never suggested that data shouldnt or isnt used at our club at any point, im sure it is, whether it used effectively or indeed whether any players identified are any good is a different matter. Nothing that has happened in the past suggests that the recruitment side of our club is efficient, well oiled, consistent or capable of identifying good players. It seems a haphazard mis match of a bit of everything.

22 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Thanks for reply. 

I read this week that Karl Robinson is very open to new ideas and data. So it did make me wonder if we could go for him. 

Nixon was saying yesterday that Rovers would look foreign if we were replacing Mowbray. But wouldn;t reveal any names

I wouldnt have mind Nigel Adkins to be honest. 

Because he doesnt know and is talking out of his arse, again.