Summer transfer window 2021.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Dolly blue said:

The sale of season tickets has gone backwards ( if and when ever they are announced )

Season tickets pricing and announcement wont done when Waggott is on Holiday. 

Unless we havent heard from any of Waggott and Mowbray since end of the season cos they are set to be sack shortly. Didnt @darrenroversay Mowbray will be gone by end of May? 5 days to go

[DE.]

9 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Also it might be just me, but I can't see the use of analytics tools if they can't incorporate whether or not a players wage demands. I'm sure you can spend a few hours compiling a list of the top ten players with the most passes in a certain part of the pitch blah blah but if their financial demands are out of your league then it's a complete waste of time.

I would assume that usually statistics are compiled after a shortlist has been drawn up or a suitable player has been identified as a potential transfer, in the same way you'd do before sending scouts out to look at them. I doubt there are many if any professional clubs blindly running general statistics on all players for transfer purposes. Possibly such systems exist at bigger clubs where money is less of an object and they are looking to snap up younger players from lower leagues showing potential, but at the vast majority of clubs requests for data will be pinpointed on specific targets which the club would already have identified as being within their wage/transfer budget. Otherwise, as you say, compiling those statistics would largely be a waste of time and resource.

There are obviously human elements that data can't account for, though, which is why in-person scouting and face-to-face meetings still exist. Data is really just a foundation to help decide what actions to take going forward.

[RoversClitheroe]

Baffling people don't appreciate Rothwell, why would clubs like Sheffield United be after him if he was so bad? 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Successful teams have a recognisable shape and a coherent, understandable, way of playing. I don’t see that at Rovers. We look like a team that doesn’t spend enough time working on a way of playing.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[RoversClitheroe]

6 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Successful teams have a recognisable shape and a coherent, understandable, way of playing. I don’t see that at Rovers. We look like a team that doesn’t spend enough time working on ways of playing.

Absolute spot on, but based on stats we're a better team 😂😂😂🙄

Edited May 27, 2021 by RoversClitheroe

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Hasta said:

 

Exactly. I watched almost every game last season and we regressed. 

Tony tries to convince us that our football progression is further on than it was a few years ago, but as far as enjoyment of watching Rovers go I preferred the League One and first season back performances, where we actually got the ball in the box and caused some excitement.

We've boosted our performance stats in areas which might look good on paper, but we are going backward in terms of results and excitement. And no stat on earth will tell me Gallagher should be on the wing.

That's the thing with stats one area looks good and covers several areas that don't. 

A bit like a huge corporation that has many businesses under it's wing. One area does really well, several don't but that one props it up. However the only thing that matters in football unlike business is the over all points and position.

That's what clubs exist for, here though the agenda is being changed to suit those running it.  It's increasingly becoming all about if they are happy and the players are happy and if the ownership can be blagged enough to be happy.

Forget progress, forget the fans it's all about the little clique running it. Keeping them and their mates in wages.

One set of figures that doesn't lie is crowds.

Edited May 27, 2021 by tomphil

[Mike E]

31 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Baffling people don't appreciate Rothwell, why would clubs like Sheffield United be after him if he was so bad? 

Rothwell, imo, should be in the middle of a 442 alongside an anchor. I'm thinking of the role Dunny had in his first spell here alongside Flitcroft.

[RoversClitheroe]

6 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Rothwell, imo, should be in the middle of a 442 alongside an anchor. I'm thinking of the role Dunny had in his first spell here alongside Flitcroft.

Absolutely, Mowbray didn't rate his defending, when I thought he pressed better than all of our midfielders and added extra mobility.

[Mike E]

1 minute ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Absolutely, Mowbray didn't rate his defending, when I thought he pressed better than all of our midfielders and added extra mobility.

Rothwell and Travis, done properly, would be among the hardest fittest midfield pairings since Reid and Savage played together for us in difficult away games.

[RoversClitheroe]

Just now, Mike E said:

Rothwell and Travis, done properly, would be among the hardest fittest midfield pairings since Reid and Savage played together for us in difficult away games.

I'd also add Davenport in there too who I personally think is class and much much better than Johnson, although Johnson does win all his headers.

[Sparks Rover]

6 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

I'd also add Davenport in there too who I personally think is class and much much better than Johnson, although Johnson does win all his headers.

There's no evidence that Davenport is good enough for this league.  Johnson is tried and tested and should be on the bench.  

I stand to be corrected on JD but the jury is well and truly out for me.

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

Rothwell and Travis, done properly, would be among the hardest fittest midfield pairings since Reid and Savage played together for us in difficult away games.

That's half the problem. We don't have a go-to midfield paring. Players never play enough games consecutively together to form an opinion on whether that partnership actually does work. They seem to get rotated based on who the opposition is.  Unless the manager is a tactical genius, such tombola-ism isn't going to be beneficial to the team.

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Baffling people don't appreciate Rothwell, why would clubs like Sheffield United be after him if he was so bad? 

Personally my opinion is that he is talented but so inconsistent and nowhere near productive enough.

Regarding your logic though, that would imply that recruitment in football is a perfect science. Surely Brereton is worth 7m if we paid that? The links to Sheffield United were mere transfer tittle tattle that probably like most rumours had no truth in it, and even if they are true and he leaves, he undoubtedly has ability, but it wouldnt change the inconsistency and lack of productivity that have marred his Rovers career.

13 hours ago, Wegerleswiggle said:

Andy would love a job with Rovers, wouldn't we all? He's a passionate fan and believes in what he does. And he does it very well. 

He has recently stated that he believes a change of manager is needed so there's no hidden agenda with regards to 'defending' Mowbray. 

If you can't see the use in analytical tools then I think you need read more about it. No they don't tell you wage demands, that's when you start negotiating with players and agents. 

I find it quite sad that many people have chosen to react this way to Andy's work, but I guess I am not surprised. 

I don't really understand the toys being thrown out of the pram here. An agenda doesnt have to carry negative connotations and indeed the motive that I and others suspected proved true; Andy admitted soon after that he had intentions of trying to get into professional football which I believe may well alter the way that he analyses things, even subconsciously because it would be counterproductive to be too publically critical of anyone within football. That's not a negative reaction.

The line in bold seems needlessly patronising. People see data as important to varying degrees, and those who find using it lots to be flawed doesnt mean that those people are ignorant to its uses. I feel like I understand it but also that so much of it is flawed, both the actual data and the way that it is used. For example, making such an in-depth document, I think that there will always be an element of trying to justify the data and what you perceive that it is showing, especially when you are so passionate about it, which is risky in itself. The conclusion that there were performance based positives for example, I did not see them having watched all of the games last season and things like possession, expected goals (a particularly controversial metric) etc, I like to take a step back and think, does ranking high in such things warrant being considered as a performance based positive, and I would personally question that. 

Andy has come on here and kindly explained plenty behind the background of making the document, he seemingly knows as well as any that people will have various questions and indeed believe in the data to varying degrees, something which he acknowledges.

[JHRover]

We aren't in a position to lose any more players, let alone the few we have who we know can contribute something meaningful and positive to the team.

I feel like I say this every summer.

We are having an exodus of players out of contract or loan. Last count was ten having triggered extensions on Nyambe, JRC and Rothwell.

The only thing the people running Rovers should be thinking about and worrying about right now is how we replace those ten players. Lots of work to do, not much time or money to do it and not much of a good record in past seasons.

At a club or with a manager with an ounce of ambition the aim would be promotion, and players recruited with that aim in mind.

Here the standards and ambitions are drastically lower and the aim on that front will be to find loans and frees to fill in gaps for the season, and with a bit of luck hope someone from the academy does the job on a small salary without needing to bring anyone else in.

It baffles me as to why there would be any desire, focus, effort or even consideration of getting rid of people like Armstrong and Rothwell at this juncture. We know from experience that those two are two of a very small number of players we have that have the experience and ability to threaten the opposition.

Yet the impression I get is that a large part of our efforts and focus is on trying to bring bidders to the table for those two, which if it happens will wipe out virtually all our goal threat (assuming the two oafs don't suddenly come good)

What sort of club is this?

Edited May 27, 2021 by JHRover

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 hours ago, Mike E said:

Rothwell and Travis, done properly, would be among the hardest fittest midfield pairings since Reid and Savage played together for us in difficult away games.

Would they though?

Their inconsistencies lie at their own doorsteps I feel. Rothwell has 1 good game every 7 and Travis looked way off it physically last season and even at his best, how good is he? Not as good as some Rovers fans think he is I reckon. 

[1864roverite]

The telling this coming season is that they will have had a full and complete rest, followed by fitness training and full preseason behind them.

That could be a pointer why so many had issues and minor injuries over the season and more.

Lets hope we see a proper improvement in fitness levels and of course that svelte green lush of an Ewood pitch on which we can play our expansive possession based football⚽️

[Mike E]

33 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Would they though?

Their inconsistencies lie at their own doorsteps I feel. Rothwell has 1 good game every 7 and Travis looked way off it physically last season and even at his best, how good is he? Not as good as some Rovers fans think he is I reckon. 

It's very possible. I'd be more hopeful, however, that a better manager might pull more consistency out of both (or would replace them if not) rather than have them plod along under Mowbray, which gives us no answers either way

[RoversClitheroe]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Regarding your logic though, that would imply that recruitment in football is a perfect science. Surely Brereton is worth 7m if we paid that?

Well regarding my logic then Brereton is a league 1 player? As he was linked in league 1 clubs for a loan.

[JacknOry]

6 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Absolute spot on, but based on stats we're a batter team 😂😂😂🙄

Unfortunately, we go a bit flat sometimes.

[RoversClitheroe]

29 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Unfortunately, we go a bit flat sometimes.

Poor spelling I have now corrected.

[Guest]

The argument against data in recruitment always seems to be “it can’t be used solely to judge players” but I’ve not seen a single club, analyst, pundit or fanalyst suggest that’s how it should be done. Just seems like a straw man debate.

Data science has its place. Let’s say a scout goes to watch a player. They’re rating his ability. They write out a scout report. What if they did that report on an iPad, same report, but digitally. Now we can pull data from the report and say okay here’s all the players who we like physically but might want to develop technically etc..

Surely that’s a useful science to have? I don’t understand the resistance to data science in all capacities. Some of the data science I can understand resistance to, especially match analysis, but for recruitment, data science simply makes pre-existing recruitment strategies digital, more digestible and easier to filter.

[RoversClitheroe]

Just now, JoeH said:

The argument against data in recruitment always seems to be “it can’t be used solely to judge players” but I’ve not seen a single club, analyst, pundit or fanalyst suggest that’s how it should be done. Just seems like a straw man debate.

Data science has its place. Let’s say a scout goes to watch a player. They’re rating his ability. They write out a scout report. What if they did that report on an iPad, same report, but digitally. Now we can pull data from the report and say okay here’s all the players who we like physically but might want to develop technically etc..

Surely that’s a useful science to have? I don’t understand the resistance to data science in all capacities. Some of the data science I can understand resistance to, especially match analysis, but for recruitment, data science simply makes pre-existing recruitment strategies digital, more digestible and easier to filter.

I think it's more when people use xG, which as I've previously stated is an absolutely useless metric.

Also very hard to believe the stats when people are saying we're improving, when in reality what we are seeing on the pitch got worse and worse throughout the season.

[JacknOry]

6 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Poor spelling I have now corrected.

Joke dude, dont get start waffling on 😉

[Guest]

1 minute ago, RoversClitheroe said:

I think it's more when people use xG, which as I've previously stated is an absolutely useless metric.

Also very hard to believe the stats when people are saying we're improving, when in reality what we are seeing on the pitch got worse and worse throughout the season.

I think resistance to data goes further that just xG. We’re talking about the science of using data in recruitment here really.

[Guest]

Things like xG, and match performance metrics are much more open to criticism and slander, naturally. I usually find myself very understanding of arguments against match analysis data metrics. But data and its use within football recruitment really doesn’t seem like it should be such a contentious topic. Nobody thinks it should be used solely to sign players and no clubs do use it solely to sign players. As a tool for filtering, organising, digitising and weeding out players from a list I think it’s basically unarguably useful. You could debate how much emphasis should be put on it vs the emphasis on personal opinion, but I don’t think there’s a discussion to be had about whether it should be used at all - because it IS used by every club in the country, for a very good and obvious reason.