Championship 21/22

[rigger]

13 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

What the championship needs are decent referees because the standard is absolutely appalling with many refs bordering on being incompetent buffoons and unfit to referee, much like the inept linos!

What all football needs, is for the players to stop cheating. That would allow refs to concentrate on making the correct decissions.

[windymiller7]

2 hours ago, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

Baggies at home to the Nobbers tonight. Fingers crossed for another good result for us tonight.

Never thought I'd be wanting that lot to do us a favour!

Likewise. Similar result to last night will do just nicely.

On a similar note, I never thought I'd cheer a Swansea 'goal', but I did last night in the pub, only for it to be (correctly) ruled out for offside.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Watch out for Preston trying to limit our allocation at Dollopdale....they have given Blackpool only 2000 tickets for their derby but are also trying an initiative to fill half of that stand with their own fans most games.

[G Somerset Rover]

33 minutes ago, windymiller7 said:

Likewise. Similar result to last night will do just nicely.

On a similar note, I never thought I'd cheer a Swansea 'goal', but I did last night in the pub, only for it to be (correctly) ruled out for offside.

I didn't think much of Obafemi (although admittedly, not bad movement for the disallowed goal). Looks like we had a narrow miss there.

[1864roverite]

3 hours ago, arbitro said:

They are professional and accountable although it's not an accountability that I think you mean. I prefer the word transparency in the context I think you mean. Select Group One was formed in 2000 and with one exception they were all given contracts as full time employees of the newly former Professional Game Match Officials Ltd. This group operated primarily on the Premier League. Four of five seasons ago Select Group Two came into being and this group are effectively exclusive to the Championship. They also are full time employees of the PGMO. I was only speaking about this at the weekend to a friend still involved in full time refereeing and my gripe is that after two decades of full time referees is the standard any better than it was when refereeing was effectively part time. I believe it's worse now despite millions being thrown at it. I would use the same argument for Select Group Two. So where has it gone wrong is the real question. I don't think the quality has been coming through for a long time now. Too many referees are pretty much fast tracked through the system because they are young but, as has showed many times they can't operate on a big stage. 

Refereeing standards have always been a big debating point but I believe that the general standard in the Championship is the worst in my lifetime, even the time I had as an active official.

They clearly are not professional and they are evidently unaccountable!

When do we see a ref or the referees association coming out and explaining decisions, good or bad? We don't because they are unaccountable and incompetently run.

Why do we continually see incompetent refs at games, for example the Hull game last week? When do we ever see consistence in refereeing apart from them being consistently poor?

Why do we never see referees suspended from refereeing games because of incompetent performances? We don't because of the incompetent way they are managed.

Refereeing in the lower leagues is abominably poor, some refs are fat, some are just useless, some havent a clue and some are just about themselves not the football, not the two teams and want to take centre stage. 

 

 

[arbitro]

20 minutes ago, 1864roverite said:

They clearly are not professional and they are evidently unaccountable!

When do we see a ref or the referees association coming out and explaining decisions, good or bad? We don't because they are unaccountable and incompetently run.

Why do we continually see incompetent refs at games, for example the Hull game last week? When do we ever see consistence in refereeing apart from them being consistently poor?

Why do we never see referees suspended from refereeing games because of incompetent performances? We don't because of the incompetent way they are managed.

Refereeing in the lower leagues is abominably poor, some refs are fat, some are just useless, some havent a clue and some are just about themselves not the football, not the two teams and want to take centre stage. 

 

 

They are full time, professional referees. That isn't up for debate. As I said in my reply to you they are accountable but not in the way you implied they should be. They have a coach and manager they respond to. Their performances are scrutinised by impartial adjudicators and marked accordingly. A merit list is compiled from these marks and ultimately they can be removed if they are struggling over the course of a couple of seasons. Clubs also report on referees and are allowed to ask for feedback for any particular incident. I have always been an advocate of referees being more accessible to the press post match but the authorities flatly refuse.

I can't answer your question on incompetence definitively. I thought the referee at Hull was poor too. On consistency we saw that on Monday at Ewood. The referee cautioned a Middlesbrough player after two minutes and that was his benchmark. All of his cautions were consistent and in my view the players knew exactly where they stood.

Do you know for sure that referees are not 'suspended' after poor performances because I don't. I never study the appointments apart from looking who Rovers have got. But I had bad days at work and was never suspended, have you?

 

[lraC]

3 hours ago, arbitro said:

They are professional and accountable although it's not an accountability that I think you mean. I prefer the word transparency in the context I think you mean. Select Group One was formed in 2000 and with one exception they were all given contracts as full time employees of the newly former Professional Game Match Officials Ltd. This group operated primarily on the Premier League. Four of five seasons ago Select Group Two came into being and this group are effectively exclusive to the Championship. They also are full time employees of the PGMO. I was only speaking about this at the weekend to a friend still involved in full time refereeing and my gripe is that after two decades of full time referees is the standard any better than it was when refereeing was effectively part time. I believe it's worse now despite millions being thrown at it. I would use the same argument for Select Group Two. So where has it gone wrong is the real question. I don't think the quality has been coming through for a long time now. Too many referees are pretty much fast tracked through the system because they are young but, as has showed many times they can't operate on a big stage. 

Refereeing standards have always been a big debating point but I believe that the general standard in the Championship is the worst in my lifetime, even the time I had as an active official.

I have always maintained that the way forward is to bring in former players. I know not every player would want to do it, but when you have played the game, even at an amateur level, you have a much better chance of seeing what is really happening out there.

[arbitro]

Just now, lraC said:

I have always maintained that the way forward is to bring in former players. I know not every player would want to do it, but when you have played the game, even at an amateur level, you have a much better chance of seeing what is really happening out there.

When I got on the Football League referees list in 1995 an ex professional called Steve Baines got on at the same time. He still thought of himself as a player and was regularly criticised by managers for being too lenient with regard to fouls and misconduct but I take your wider point. Having played the game is definitely an advantage when taking up the whist but as a referee you still have a job to do and sometimes doing that job correctly still leads to criticism.

[Rochdale Blues]

1 hour ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

Watch out for Preston trying to limit our allocation at Dollopdale....they have given Blackpool only 2000 tickets for their derby but are also trying an initiative to fill half of that stand with their own fans most games.

Blackpool restricted the allocation to PNE at Bloomfield Road - it was less than ours. This is the reaction by PNEs

[Mattyblue]

The thing is with a lot of modern refs, and those at Stockley Park in the PL games… do they understand the game?

It’s all well and good saying they are ‘crap’, ‘terrible standard’. I think that’s true from my perspective, but are a lot of these constant unfathomable decisions (to us at least) not actually something they get marked down on? Case in point both the ref on the pitch and more refs via VAR giving that penalty to Liverpool at Palace.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Mattyblue

[1864roverite]

Rovers allocation will be 5000 for nobbers away, Blackpool is payback for them refusing to up their allocation similar to the Rovers numbers because of public safety

[1864roverite]

If referees are "suspended" or removed from games it is highlighted in the media with reasons why. We have previously seen premiership refs demoted to Championship games or lower. In respect of current EFL refs, there have not been any such reports so on that basis alone, no action is ever taken against poor performing refs.

I am also not just coming from a Rovers fan point of view, its evident on tv games and from fans forums about poor refereeing this season.

[speeeeeeedie]

30 minutes ago, arbitro said:

When I got on the Football League referees list in 1995 an ex professional called Steve Baines got on at the same time. He still thought of himself as a player and was regularly criticised by managers for being too lenient with regard to fouls and misconduct but I take your wider point. Having played the game is definitely an advantage when taking up the whist but as a referee you still have a job to do and sometimes doing that job correctly still leads to criticism.

Maybe they could be fast tracked due to experience? They should not struggle with fitness, they understand the nuances of the game, therefore with a bit of coaching they should be effective. Then they can report to other players what the experience is like.

The other side is how many want to, or how many need to? Current Prem wages negate the need for a post football career from a financial standpoint (discounting stupid decisions), but I think that a lot of players would like it. It keeps them involved in the game, keeps them fit, don't have to move around, and unlike the coach/manager route are unlikely to get sacked after 18 months

Consistency comes up a lot with refereeing. What is better; if a ref is consistent game to game, or within a single game? One week he can let teams kick 7 bells out of each other, the next they blow up more frequently.

[Oldgregg86]

After seeing some really poor officiating down at ewood this season I thought the ref against Middlesbrough did a very good job. I think he got the edun penalty decision wrong (thank god) but was fair , consistent and let the game flow. He wasn’t  perfect but that was a good ref in my book

Edited January 26, 2022 by Oldgregg86

[speeeeeeedie]

3 minutes ago, Oldgregg86 said:

After seeing some really poor officiating down at ewood this season I thought the ref against Middlesbrough did a very good job. I think he got the edun penalty decision wrong (thank god) but was fair , consistent and let the game flow. He wasn’t  perfect but that was a good ref in my book

It was Darren England. He's on the "select group 1" ie. Prem list. He was streets ahead of the lad at Hull.

Years ago a mate of mine played in an international youth tournament. It may have been UN sponsored or some organisation like that and somehow got a load of top referees' to do it. He played in one game reffed by Paul Durkin (short, ginger ex Prem ref). He said that he was brilliant. On top of everything, no wrong decisions, always up with play, constantly talking to explain what he was doing. 

There was another local ref (Andy?) who did football league games when I was growing up. I had him a few times an he was good too. 

[windymiller7]

55 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

The thing is with a lot of modern refs, and those at Stockley Park in the PL games… do they understand the game?

It’s all well and good saying they are ‘crap’, ‘terrible standard’. I think that’s true from my perspective, but are a lot of these constant unfathomable decisions (to us at least) not actually something they get marked down on? Case in point both the ref on the pitch and more refs via VAR giving that penalty to Liverpool at Palace.

That was a bit of an odd one at the weekend, the on-field ref (Kevin Friend) clearly got the decision correct in the first instance - no pen. Inexplicably, the VAR (Craig Pawson) then asks him to go & have another look. He goes over to have a butchers & I actually suspect he still thought his original decision was correct, however, because he's been asked to go and have another look he's on a hiding to nothing as someone else is essentially telling him he's got it wrong.

I'd have absolutely loved it if he (Friend) had a look on the monitor & said "nope, I'm still right. no pen". Unfortunately I just can't see any ref having the stones to do that. Once the first one does, I think we might see a few more stick by their original decision, but I'll not hold my breath.

[RevidgeBlue]

30 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

It was Darren England. He's on the "select group 1" ie. Prem list. He was streets ahead of the lad at Hull.

Years ago a mate of mine played in an international youth tournament. It may have been UN sponsored or some organisation like that and somehow got a load of top referees' to do it. He played in one game reffed by Paul Durkin (short, ginger ex Prem ref). He said that he was brilliant. On top of everything, no wrong decisions, always up with play, constantly talking to explain what he was doing. 

There was another local ref (Andy?) who did football league games when I was growing up. I had him a few times an he was good too. 

Hmm........ Paul Durkin wasn't so great when he disallowed a vital last minute equaliser for us at Old Trafford from Tim Sherwood!

[oldjamfan1]

26 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Hmm........ Paul Durkin wasn't so great when he disallowed a vital last minute equaliser for us at Old Trafford from Tim Sherwood!

Indeed! I think I’ve mentioned this before but he worked in the same sector as me and I gave him shit about that every time I saw the fucker.

[lraC]

32 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Hmm........ Paul Durkin wasn't so great when he disallowed a vital last minute equaliser for us at Old Trafford from Tim Sherwood!

Awful decision that and despite having Blue & White blood, I would say that had it been given the other way round.

[arbitro]

2 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

If referees are "suspended" or removed from games it is highlighted in the media with reasons why. We have previously seen premiership refs demoted to Championship games or lower. In respect of current EFL refs, there have not been any such reports so on that basis alone, no action is ever taken against poor performing refs.

I am also not just coming from a Rovers fan point of view, its evident on tv games and from fans forums about poor refereeing this season.

But the media have it wrong. Although they are labelled as PL and Championship referees by the media any referee in Select Groups 1 & 2 they can referee in any of the three EFL leagues. For example Monday's referee is on Select Group 1 and the International list too. Part of their contract is they do any one of the four senior leagues.

I don't disagree that the standard is poor, in fact I think I said that on an earlier post. It's more than there are lots is misconceptions around referee and the refereeing system.

[darrenrover]

2 hours ago, speeeeeeedie said:

Maybe they could be fast tracked due to experience? They should not struggle with fitness, they understand the nuances of the game, therefore with a bit of coaching they should be effective. Then they can report to other players what the experience is like.

The other side is how many want to, or how many need to? Current Prem wages negate the need for a post football career from a financial standpoint (discounting stupid decisions), but I think that a lot of players would like it. It keeps them involved in the game, keeps them fit, don't have to move around, and unlike the coach/manager route are unlikely to get sacked after 18 months

Consistency comes up a lot with refereeing. What is better; if a ref is consistent game to game, or within a single game? One week he can let teams kick 7 bells out of each other, the next they blow up more frequently.

I think you raise many great points speeeedie. I, like yourself, am totally familiar with officiating in various sports in USA.....they would not put up with the poor standard that we're expected to endure.

That's not coming from a biased, Rovers based view but a personal opinion in general. The refereeing of Rovers games, both this season and last, has just been shit!

It's not just an odd decision or two but a whole host. Do they know the rules and/or watch the same games that we do? (rhetorical question btw!)

Before Monday night (where I thought the ref was ok), I cannot honestly remember the last time that I thought that a referee of our games had a good match.....that can't be right and is unacceptable.

[arbitro]

2 hours ago, speeeeeeedie said:

Maybe they could be fast tracked due to experience? They should not struggle with fitness, they understand the nuances of the game, therefore with a bit of coaching they should be effective. Then they can report to other players what the experience is like.

The other side is how many want to, or how many need to? Current Prem wages negate the need for a post football career from a financial standpoint (discounting stupid decisions), but I think that a lot of players would like it. It keeps them involved in the game, keeps them fit, don't have to move around, and unlike the coach/manager route are unlikely to get sacked after 18 months

Consistency comes up a lot with refereeing. What is better; if a ref is consistent game to game, or within a single game? One week he can let teams kick 7 bells out of each other, the next they blow up more frequently.

Inconsistency in the same game drives me mad and it happens so often in the Championship. The referee was very good on Monday. He cautioned ten and set the standard for this in the second minute. Wilder told him he was excellent and as far as I know Mowbray was happy. At Stoke earlier this season we had four cautioned for delaying the restart (time wasting to many). The referee was correct in my view and consistently applied the law. Again I don't believe Mowbray was unhappy with him.

[darrenrover]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Hmm........ Paul Durkin wasn't so great when he disallowed a vital last minute equaliser for us at Old Trafford from Tim Sherwood!

....not to mention sending off Henning Berg at Ewood and awarding a penalty for a perfectly timed tackle! (red 2hat!)

[booth]

12 minutes ago, darrenrover said:

....not to mention sending off Henning Berg at Ewood and awarding a penalty for a perfectly timed tackle! (red 2hat!)

That was awful. I was right in front of that. Everyone cheered because it was such a good tackle. As well as losing it ruined a good game.

[speeeeeeedie]

29 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Inconsistency in the same game drives me mad and it happens so often in the Championship. The referee was very good on Monday. He cautioned ten and set the standard for this in the second minute. Wilder told him he was excellent and as far as I know Mowbray was happy. At Stoke earlier this season we had four cautioned for delaying the restart (time wasting to many). The referee was correct in my view and consistently applied the law. Again I don't believe Mowbray was unhappy with him.

I agree with you. It's harder to compare game to game as well. With consistency comes fairness, and when everyone agrees on that it makes the job easier.

I watch much more premier league than championship but VAR is causing the most angst there. However, I think that the Prem bigwigs need to alter the rule. A clear and obvious error needs to mean exactly that. 50 views, 5 minutes, then asking the ref to look at the monitor shows me that it's neither clear nor obvious.