John Buckley YouTube Video

[chaddyrovers]

22 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Mowbray suggested the bad ones and the recruitment team suggested the good ones? Easy assumption to make and even if it was true, Mowbray is still the manager so no reason to believe that suddenly our fantastic recruitment team will suddenly grasp the power and have the final say.

Well if that's the way you want to put it but it wasnt the point. Mowbray chased Ayala years ago, so Mowbray knows all about him and should have stayed well clear of signing him. I dont see our recruitment team suggest him. Do you? But our recruitment team where heavily involved in signing Kaminski or Dolan. 

Will Mowbray have final say or will it be Pasha who will? 

[Bigdoggsteel]

10 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

That's where you hope and in all true where are recruitment department should have already provided Mowbray and co shortlist for each position we need signings for. That's should have been weeks in not months ago tbh. 

Have they appointment a new head of recruitment yet? That appointment alone is dragging on. It's just typical of how evething is done at the club. At a snails pace. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Bigdoggsteel

[Sparks Rover]

7 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

But our recruitment team where heavily involved in signing Dolan. 

Give it a rest chaddy, every man and his dog knew Dolan was released by the nobbers.  You think we were the only club looking at him after he left...? We were the only club that made an offer.🙄  He's done OK, but I'm still unconvinced by his end product and size.  I think defenders will sort him out this season.  We won't see much of him in my opinion.

 

You say stuff which such certainty that you have no clue about.  

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[Sparks Rover]

On 04/06/2021 at 11:55, Displaced Rover said:

Yeah let's get one of your 15 year old lads in instead, they'll do a job...

Sorry, they are already signed to other professional clubs.  Maybe one will come on loan in a couple of years.👍⚽️

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, Sparks Rover said:

Sorry, they are already signed to other professional clubs.  Maybe one will come on loan in a couple of years.

What are their names and which clubs? 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Hoochie Bloochie Mama

[Sparks Rover]

1 minute ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

What are their names and which clubs? 

Not allowed to put names on here, are you completely stupid?  They are children 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, Sparks Rover said:

Not allowed to put names on here, are you completely stupid?  They are children 

Touchy. I'm calling bullshit.

There are U18 match reports on Rovers website with the names of kids from the U14's, U15's and U16's. 

So, names and clubs?

Edited June 5, 2021 by Hoochie Bloochie Mama

[Sparks Rover]

3 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Touchy. I'm calling bullshit.

There are U18 match reports on Rovers website with the names of kids from the U14's, U15's and U16's. 

 

Good for them.  My role is within schools, I couldn't possibly mate...sorry. on a Rovers message board too? 🙄

Give me a shout in a couple of years and we will see where they are...

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[chaddyrovers]

6 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Have they appointment a new head of recruitment yet? That appointment alone is dragging on. It's just typical of how everything is done at the club. At a snails pace. 

Yet again. Asked Crooke this week if they had been any progress. He was on holiday this week so he will chase this up this coming week. 

Maybe they have picked their choice but he is having to work his notice period

[Mike E]

On 05/06/2021 at 16:59, chaddyrovers said:

Yet again. Asked Crooke this week if they had been any progress. He was on holiday this week so he will chase this up this coming week. 

Maybe they have picked their choice but he is having to work his notice period

Is it Glynn Chamberlain, or have I got my wires crossed with something else?

[bluebruce]

4 hours ago, Mike E said:

Is it Glynn Chamberlain, or have I got my wires crossed with something else?

That's the Head of European Scouting I believe. It already occurred to me that they might just bump him into the Head of Recruitment role after interviewing however many dozens of people applied, in another lazy jobs for the boys move. Especially now there isn't all that much use in European scouting for a club of our size with the Brexit rules.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, bluebruce said:

That's the Head of European Scouting I believe. It already occurred to me that they might just bump him into the Head of Recruitment role after interviewing however many dozens of people applied, in another lazy jobs for the boys move. Especially now there isn't all that much use in European scouting for a club of our size with the Brexit rules.

I don't think that's really true. New WP rules change things but don't necessarily make it impossible.

[chaddyrovers]

12 hours ago, Mike E said:

Is it Glynn Chamberlain, or have I got my wires crossed with something else?

Glyn Chamberlain is the head of our European Scouting network. 

8 hours ago, bluebruce said:

That's the Head of European Scouting I believe. It already occurred to me that they might just bump him into the Head of Recruitment role after interviewing however many dozens of people applied, in another lazy jobs for the boys move. Especially now there isn't all that much use in European scouting for a club of our size with the Brexit rules.

Maybe they will target a new Recruitment chief with more data focus background. 

I have to completely disagree on your point about no point us having European Scouting of our size. We can still target players in Belgium, Holland, France, Germany. Plus other countries like Turkey, Sweden and Norway. 

[bluebruce]

2 hours ago, JoeH said:

I don't think that's really true. New WP rules change things but don't necessarily make it impossible.

 

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Glyn Chamberlain is the head of our European Scouting network. 

Maybe they will target a new Recruitment chief with more data focus background. 

I have to completely disagree on your point about no point us having European Scouting of our size. We can still target players in Belgium, Holland, France, Germany. Plus other countries like Turkey, Sweden and Norway. 

You've both misunderstood me. Especially Chaddy, who I've already had this discussion with. I didn't say it was impossible Joe, I said there isn't all that much use in it for a club our size now. Not the same thing. Sure, we can still find some gems potentially but they just got a lot harder to get out of the mine and we weren't exactly ripping it up with European successes before were we? Didn't you post up what Kaminski's points would have been when we signed him and he came up short? Apologies if I'm misremembering and please correct me if so (maybe you said only just qualified), but if that's right then that's basically our only success from it so far and it would no longer be possible. That was a lad playing regularly in a decent enough league belonging to the world's number one ranked nation, in a side that just finished 2nd in it and had been in European competition that season. He was good enough to win our Player of the Year in his first season.

If that doesn't cut the mustard anymore it's going to be very difficult outside of people with British passports on the continent. Only a few leagues earned better points than the top tier in Belgium when I looked at the points system - Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga and Ligue 1.

I read that Mbuemo and Pukki wouldn't have qualified under the current rules. I know there are ways it's a lot easier to qualify, like being a regular in an international side in the top 50, but the point is our market is considerably reduced now, with probably just as much competition vying for the gems, and we have barely had anything from it before the restrictions.

[bluebruce]

On 05/06/2021 at 00:54, chaddyrovers said:

 Will be interesting to see who we appoint as Head of recruitment and whether that person is more data focus than Harvey was. 

I assume Harvey was already pretty data-focused, he wasn't just head of recruitment he was also head of Player Analysis. Sounds data-related. I know on my FM game he starts as chief scout and chief data analyst as his secondary role.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

 

You've both misunderstood me. Especially Chaddy, who I've already had this discussion with. I didn't say it was impossible Joe, I said there isn't all that much use in it for a club our size now. Not the same thing. Sure, we can still find some gems potentially but they just got a lot harder to get out of the mine and we weren't exactly ripping it up with European successes before were we? Didn't you post up what Kaminski's points would have been when we signed him and he came up short? Apologies if I'm misremembering and please correct me if so (maybe you said only just qualified), but if that's right then that's basically our only success from it so far and it would no longer be possible. That was a lad playing regularly in a decent enough league belonging to the world's number one ranked nation, in a side that just finished 2nd in it and had been in European competition that season. He was good enough to win our Player of the Year in his first season.

If that doesn't cut the mustard anymore it's going to be very difficult outside of people with British passports on the continent. Only a few leagues earned better points than the top tier in Belgium when I looked at the points system - Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga and Ligue 1.

I read that Mbuemo and Pukki wouldn't have qualified under the current rules. I know there are ways it's a lot easier to qualify, like being a regular in an international side in the top 50, but the point is our market is considerably reduced now, with probably just as much competition vying for the gems, and we have barely had anything from it before the restrictions.

Belgiums division is a Band 2 league. I'd have to do some calculations on Kaminski but his nationality doesn't mean much unless he plays in competitive minutes for his nation. If his side qualified for Europe he'd certainly get some points there, and if they played in Europe and he featured in those games he'd get points for that too.

Some leagues are harder to buy from, some significantly easier. Perhaps 'European' Scouting should be widened to Overseas because South America became infinitely easier to purchase from after Brexit. Trends will shift towards Brazil, Argentina and other places. We've already seen Stoke and Huddersfield sign some players from that continent. 

[rigger]

All this discussion about whether continental players are worth persuing, is assuming the people running our club, give a damn about Blackburn Rovers. Personally I don't think they give a shit about our club.

[chaddyrovers]

On 07/06/2021 at 14:57, bluebruce said:

I assume Harvey was already pretty data-focused, he wasn't just head of recruitment he was also head of Player Analysis. Sounds data-related. I know on my FM game he starts as chief scout and chief data analyst as his secondary role.

Is FM going to know everything? 

Harvey was in charge of recruitment department and had some good staff under him. 

I still think its fully worth having a European scouting network as they will be plenty of players we can sign still

[bluebruce]

11 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Is FM going to know everything? 

Harvey was in charge of recruitment department and had some good staff under him. 

I still think its fully worth having a European scouting network as they will be plenty of players we can sign still

I didn't say it did, did I? They generally have a pretty good grasp on what staff roles are though. Harvey was head of Player Analysis. That's not from the game, that's from news reports when he left. FM clearly decided the closest role they have to that is Chief Data Analyst. Whichever way you slice it, either role very likely relies on analysing data, my point being, we already had someone who was data focused enough as head of recruitment that they gave him a secondary role that appears to have included data analysis.

The more I hear the more I suspect Harvey left because Mowbray ignored a lot of his best suggestions, but likely has an NDA preventing him talking about it. It will be interesting to see how Sunderland's recruitment goes compared to ours in the next couple years.

Define 'plenty of players'. We can sign players with British passports, not many of those on the continent. We can sign players who have played a bit in the top 4 leagues, or played once but are internationals at a reasonable level or for a crap international side but play a lot (I think those would sometimes qualify anyway). Most of those will be out of reach. We can possibly sign some ever-present players from the second tier of leagues (Belgium, Holland top flight etc) but I think they'll need to be in European competition and/or internationals at a better level than the top tier leagues. And some of those will be out of reach. After that we are struggling I think. Certain leagues are no longer worth scouting at all really, other than possibly for regular internationals when it's a country in the fifa top 50.

As one example, a player who played every game for Greece and every game for a club in the Greek top league, but a club who didn't qualify for Europe, would NOT meet the criteria.

You keep acting like it's not a problem, but it is. Our realistic European pool just got a LOT smaller. To pull a figure entirely out of my arse, I'd guess it's about 10% of what it was before.

Premiership teams, as ever, are barely affected. But even then, if you think of when we signed Nzonzi, or Samba, back when we had a real European scouting network, I'm pretty sure neither of them would have come close to qualifying.

[chaddyrovers]

10 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

The more I hear the more I suspect Harvey left because Mowbray ignored a lot of his best suggestions, but likely has an NDA preventing him talking about it. It will be interesting to see how Sunderland's recruitment goes compared to ours in the next couple years.

I suggested that's was the one of the reason why he left for Sunderland cos he wanted a greater say in recruitment. I think he suggested certain players but Mowbray ignored them and signed Ayala and Douglas instead

20 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

 We can possibly sign some ever-present players from the second tier of leagues (Belgium, Holland top flight etc) but I think they'll need to be in European competition and/or internationals at a better level than the top tier leagues.

This us where I would be looking Begium, Holland, Turkey, possible Austria aswell France and Germany. 

We should have looking at these leagues since our promotion 3 years ago. Mowbray and this European scouting network set have been ready to go when we got promoted especially if Mowbray wanted to play this possession based game. 

29 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

You keep acting like it's not a problem, but it is. Our realistic European pool just got a LOT smaller. 

It shouldn't be problem if you have proper recruitment network in place to find this players. That's why these people watch plenty of games from around the European and UK games. Rest of it is just excuse that Mowbray will used. We have to keep developing our good young players from our academy aswell as find gems in the lower leagues. 

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I suggested that's was the one of the reason why he left for Sunderland cos he wanted a greater say in recruitment. I think he suggested certain players but Mowbray ignored them and signed Ayala and Douglas instead

This us where I would be looking Begium, Holland, Turkey, possible Austria aswell France and Germany. 

We should have looking at these leagues since our promotion 3 years ago. Mowbray and this European scouting network set have been ready to go when we got promoted especially if Mowbray wanted to play this possession based game. 

It shouldn't be problem if you have proper recruitment network in place to find this players. That's why these people watch plenty of games from around the European and UK games. Rest of it is just excuse that Mowbray will used. We have to keep developing our good young players from our academy aswell as find gems in the lower leagues. 

Agree, I think he went there for that reason too.

I've just had a proper look through the full regs on the FA site. I was writing a detailed explanation of the system as I went, but as I've gone further down I've noticed more ways to get points that contradicted what I was writing. It's a complicated system, and I do think Kaminski would have qualified comfortably after all (I make it 10 points for being in a Band 2 club and playing at all, another 10 points for playing 90-100% of the minutes for a Band 2 club, plus some other points for European qualification and playing in Europe etc, and you need 15, so he's more than 5 points over...if I'm understanding it right), so I retract my earlier comment on that and how difficult it would be overall. It's the added points earned for playing at least one game that I had missed.

The regs are complicated enough that I think it's why the reports I've read on it haven't explained it clearly, and this in itself might cause issues for our scouts at times, checking the detailed criteria for whether the player even qualifies in order to know if it's worth scouting him, or not being sure a player will qualify until the season is over (waiting on their club's league position, how many games they play etc) which could waste some scouting time.

On reflection I think it isn't as bad as I thought before (again, depending on if I'm interpreting these regs correctly), but it will certainly make some lesser leagues virtually worthless to scout, and I think the regulation complications may cause our network to be a bit less efficient than it would otherwise be, for reasons stated above.

Band 1 - Germany, Italy, Spain, France, England (top tiers only)

Band 2 - Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Turkey (top tiers only) England (second tier, including England just for completeness)

Band 3 - Russia, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Scotland (lol) (top tiers only)

Band 4 - Czech, Croatia, Switzerland, Ukraine, Greece, Columbia, USA, Australia (top tiers only) Germany, Spain, France (second tiers only...not sure where Serie B ranks, can't see it so it might be Band 6)

Band 5 - Serbia, Denmark, Poland, Slovenia, Chile, Uruguay, China (top tiers only)

Band 6 - everything else

If you play 90-100% of minutes (not games, minutes) for a team in the bands, before anything else is met you earn:

Band 1 - 24 points

Band 2 - 20 points

Band 3 - 16 points

Band 4 - 12 points

Band 5 - 8 points

Band 6 - 4 points

As you can see it's impossible to qualify in Band 4 unless you also have continental minutes, your club qualifies for continental competition or you have decent international game time (would have to be in a top 50 nation if that last one is the only extra you have).

With the budget we have, we need bargains. Players who qualify easily from Band 1 are probably beyond us. Band 1 squad players who qualify probably are too, mostly. Players from Band 1 clubs who aren't named on a team sheet for them (youth players or loaned out) will struggle to qualify.

Looking at all this it seems our best scouting markets (Europe only for now anyway) would be Bands 2 and 3: Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Turkey, Russia. Some of the clubs in those leagues might not really be worth trying to sign from, but regulars in most of the teams in them would hopefully be within budget and likely to meet the criteria if not injured or dropped.

If you're looking at anyone from Band 4 or below, they're going to need to be an international (and the lower the club band the higher rank the international side would need to be, and/or more international minutes played) or from a club currently in or qualifying next season for European competitions. Or have a British passport.

There are also points that can be earned in youth football, that looks complicated too and I won't go into it or read it all, but it looks possible to earn enough points that way (maybe with senior games added in), so we could do with someone keeping tabs on youth internationals and in youth continental competitions.

So it's still a vastly reduced pool (5 nations and some top sides in the other leagues, and the occasional affordable international), but probably not 90% smaller as I initially thought.

I do feel more relaxed about our chances of still landing the odd player through it after giving a thorough read, as long as we organise our efforts well. It is a problem though Chaddy, it's still harder than before and a smaller pool with more intense competition. I'd say you were about half right with the leagues we should scout, but Austria is Band 4 so probably not worth it. German top tier a bit beyond us, some of French top tier might be in range. Their second tiers are Band 4 and have no possibility of European qualification, won't be packing any top 50 regular internationals, so pretty much no point.

(And yes everyone, I wrote a lot, I'm detail-oriented and type fast, spare me your pithy mockery)

Edited June 9, 2021 by bluebruce

[Guest]

8 hours ago, bluebruce said:

Agree, I think he went there for that reason too.

I've just had a proper look through the full regs on the FA site. I was writing a detailed explanation of the system as I went, but as I've gone further down I've noticed more ways to get points that contradicted what I was writing. It's a complicated system, and I do think Kaminski would have qualified comfortably after all (I make it 10 points for being in a Band 2 club and playing at all, another 10 points for playing 90-100% of the minutes for a Band 2 club, plus some other points for European qualification and playing in Europe etc, and you need 15, so he's more than 5 points over...if I'm understanding it right), so I retract my earlier comment on that and how difficult it would be overall. It's the added points earned for playing at least one game that I had missed.

The regs are complicated enough that I think it's why the reports I've read on it haven't explained it clearly, and this in itself might cause issues for our scouts at times, checking the detailed criteria for whether the player even qualifies in order to know if it's worth scouting him, or not being sure a player will qualify until the season is over (waiting on their club's league position, how many games they play etc) which could waste some scouting time.

On reflection I think it isn't as bad as I thought before (again, depending on if I'm interpreting these regs correctly), but it will certainly make some lesser leagues virtually worthless to scout, and I think the regulation complications may cause our network to be a bit less efficient than it would otherwise be, for reasons stated above.

Band 1 - Germany, Italy, Spain, France, England (top tiers only)

Band 2 - Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Turkey (top tiers only) England (second tier, including England just for completeness)

Band 3 - Russia, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Scotland (lol) (top tiers only)

Band 4 - Czech, Croatia, Switzerland, Ukraine, Greece, Columbia, USA, Australia (top tiers only) Germany, Spain, France (second tiers only...not sure where Serie B ranks, can't see it so it might be Band 6)

Band 5 - Serbia, Denmark, Poland, Slovenia, Chile, Uruguay, China (top tiers only)

Band 6 - everything else

If you play 90-100% of minutes (not games, minutes) for a team in the bands, before anything else is met you earn:

Band 1 - 24 points

Band 2 - 20 points

Band 3 - 16 points

Band 4 - 12 points

Band 5 - 8 points

Band 6 - 4 points

As you can see it's impossible to qualify in Band 4 unless you also have continental minutes, your club qualifies for continental competition or you have decent international game time (would have to be in a top 50 nation if that last one is the only extra you have).

With the budget we have, we need bargains. Players who qualify easily from Band 1 are probably beyond us. Band 1 squad players who qualify probably are too, mostly. Players from Band 1 clubs who aren't named on a team sheet for them (youth players or loaned out) will struggle to qualify.

Looking at all this it seems our best scouting markets (Europe only for now anyway) would be Bands 2 and 3: Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Turkey, Russia. Some of the clubs in those leagues might not really be worth trying to sign from, but regulars in most of the teams in them would hopefully be within budget and likely to meet the criteria if not injured or dropped.

If you're looking at anyone from Band 4 or below, they're going to need to be an international (and the lower the club band the higher rank the international side would need to be, and/or more international minutes played) or from a club currently in or qualifying next season for European competitions. Or have a British passport.

There are also points that can be earned in youth football, that looks complicated too and I won't go into it or read it all, but it looks possible to earn enough points that way (maybe with senior games added in), so we could do with someone keeping tabs on youth internationals and in youth continental competitions.

So it's still a vastly reduced pool (5 nations and some top sides in the other leagues, and the occasional affordable international), but probably not 90% smaller as I initially thought.

I do feel more relaxed about our chances of still landing the odd player through it after giving a thorough read, as long as we organise our efforts well. It is a problem though Chaddy, it's still harder than before and a smaller pool with more intense competition. I'd say you were about half right with the leagues we should scout, but Austria is Band 4 so probably not worth it. German top tier a bit beyond us, some of French top tier might be in range. Their second tiers are Band 4 and have no possibility of European qualification, won't be packing any top 50 regular internationals, so pretty much no point.

(And yes everyone, I wrote a lot, I'm detail-oriented and type fast, spare me your pithy mockery)

You're pretty close here with your research. Of course there's some real intricacies on contintental cup minutes, promoted sides and title winning sides, points for cup competitions and the likes which are kind of difficult to wrap your head around. I have a handly little calculator which I was given by a friend in the analytical community in the form of a Google Sheets document. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_R2kjq-U4bKZoK_qrWkIeJ-S1Ao_XVvKP9rKFuz98kM/edit?usp=sharing is the link to the doc. Enter in the info that you can find on a player and it'll give you what you need. Like you say, some players these new rules make less attainable, but some more.

[bluebruce]

3 hours ago, JoeH said:

You're pretty close here with your research. Of course there's some real intricacies on contintental cup minutes, promoted sides and title winning sides, points for cup competitions and the likes which are kind of difficult to wrap your head around. I have a handly little calculator which I was given by a friend in the analytical community in the form of a Google Sheets document. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_R2kjq-U4bKZoK_qrWkIeJ-S1Ao_XVvKP9rKFuz98kM/edit?usp=sharing is the link to the doc. Enter in the info that you can find on a player and it'll give you what you need. Like you say, some players these new rules make less attainable, but some more.

I mentioned continental competition a few times, I just put title winning under that without referring to it explicitly because I was already talking a lot and it shows under the same table as qualifying for continental competition. I didn't know there was something about promoted sides, didn't see that. I saw mention of domestic cup minutes in the preamble, but didn't see the specifics of how it works (it's a large document) nor a table for it like the other scoring.

Since I was just trying to present which are the most reliable markets - ones where most regular starters for all teams in that league will qualify - I tried to leave all that other stuff out for the most part. Yes regulars from top sides in Band 4 leagues will also qualify if their team finished as expected etc, but often those players would also be beyond our likely grasp. I don't think we could shop for a Galatasaray regular anymore, generally.

I don't know quite how international scouting is structured to know whether it's worth keeping tabs on a handful of clubs in each Band 4 and below league, versus watching a whole league.

The calculator is handy though, I was thinking whilst writing that, for the sake of scouts, a database of eligibility is something someone should do. A calculator is the next best thing, and cheaper.

Edited June 9, 2021 by bluebruce

[rigger]

Why dont we just use the European scouting network, in UK ?

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, rigger said:

Why dont we just use the European scouting network, in UK ?

You mean turn the network onto the UK? I assume we already (think we) have a perfectly fine UK scouting system. The whole point of the European one was to have a wider range of players and, moreover, better value for money ones than the UK market offers.

It also took us years to set up (because we are expert dawdlers) and is designed to operate in Europe. I doubt it can be easily turned to the UK without another year of fannying around by the tools in charge. They've banged on about it for so long they'd lose face too. "Derp, yeh, we didn't really uh, think about the consequences of Brexit, which was voted for a couple of years before we embarked on this odyssey, really took us by surprise."

I don't know exactly what they've put in place, but I have to assume part of the reason for the delays (beyond general bungling) was establishing contacts with clubs and scouts across Europe. If that's the case then a link with say, Salzburg, isn't going to help us in the UK market. Nor is some Turkish scout, say, going to up sticks. Surely it can't have taken us about 2 years just to hire a few scouts to go around Europe. Surely, even for us...