Tony Mowbray

[Mattyblue]

£430 to £530 for new/returning fans is a disgrace and explains the poor sales and our inability to get more than 8,500-8,700 ST holders.

[JHRover]

14 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Focusing on other clubs again instead of just focusing on our ST sales which have improved (never said good did I) over the previous seasons which we could attend games. 

So if we sold 2,000 next year then the year after sold 3,000 you'd consider that success?

Of course the performance of rival clubs is relevant. If you aren't interested in how other clubs get on in comparison to Rovers then there's not much point being involved in competitive sport - the whole point of which is to outperform rivals. If just about every other club is getting more people on watching and are increasing their ticket sales, and we are bucking the trend by heading backwards on attendances, then someone somewhere should be very alarmed by it.

The chickens are coming home to roost on crowds and anyone who suggests the numbers are good or isn't worried about the numbers at Ewood and recent trajectory of attendances clearly isn't paying attention.

Waggott isn't paying attention. He's not here to improve or grow the club, and clearly has no remit nor intention to do anything serious about it. He's got a narrowly defined set of powers that amount to occasional 'promotions' usually with various strings attached or rolled out for fixtures that nobody wants to go to.

Waggott is paid to make the balance sheet look better each summer when those in India review it. He's probably survived 5 years on his salary because he's advanced an argument he is worth employing because he's increased income and cut losses by more than that.

Unfortunately, when you are a Championship football club, playing in a competitive league, in a competitive part of the country, in the middle of a pandemic and economic crisis, there is a bit more to it than working out how to extract more money in the coming weeks and months from a dwindling support base. There is a bigger picture. A short, medium and long term. Not in Waggott land there isn't. An opportunist interested only in the next few weeks never mind years who knows full well he won't be here to pick up the pieces down the line. Again it comes back to the owners - someone of his 'calibre' wouldn't have got near running this Club under competent owners and wouldn't have survived this long through deteriorating attendances. But our owners seem quite happy to have a patsy in situ who pays for himself with his schemes and who deflects attention away from them.

Most clubs are aware of the situation and risks of plummeting gates, which is why they have taken the bold step of reducing ticket prices, enabling hard up fans to renew in difficult times when the temptation is there to give up and save the money.

League One Bolton and PNE getting 5-6 thousand more season ticket holder than us is a disgrace. No ifs or buts about it.

[chaddyrovers]

53 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

£430 to £530 for new/returning fans is a disgrace and explains the poor sales and our inability to get more than 8,500-8,700 ST holders.

when looking at fans forum from July we have over 800 new ST holders in 7,800 ST we sold by that date and 1,000 ST holders from last season which haven't renewed by then. 

[rigger]

I was a season ticket holder, I am no longer a season ticket holder. The only reason for that,

is price.

[smiller14]

A big issue is the lack of fans after COVID. Other clubs saw a spike in attendance - finally back after empty stadiums etc. We never had that bounce at all. And it was compounded by price rises and being uncompetitive price wise with local rivals who have very similar demographics. Unsurprisingly, they are selling much more than us, despite us actually enjoying more on pitch success than them both (PNE, Bolton).

800 new season ticket holders is nothing to write home about; was a great opportunity to really hammer home the 'fresh start', with a new manager and young prospects to be proud of. Just felt like an opportunity missed. 

[Mattyblue]

Just thank the Lord we had a bit of JDT buzz in the summer and TM didn’t have another year on his deal, Christ knows what the sales would’ve been otherwise.

[Butty]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

But people the affect that Covid have had some people plus a number of other issues that will affect this. 

Also, where the early bird prices this season that much of disgrace when it was the same price as the season before and 50 pounds more than 19/20 season? 

people mention other clubs, but I know PNE have had a huge problem with fans buying under 18's season tickets whilst being adults. It took PNE a few home games to realise this was happening and those ST was cancelled, and fans told to the need to purchase the correct ticket for their age 

Yes absolutely they were, they’ve been to expensive now for far to long and I just wish one season the club would try something else. Make the early bird prices a hell of a lot more attractive and run a big promo campaign for it, if the numbers aren’t good enough then the club can turn round and say “we tried” 

[chaddyrovers]

35 minutes ago, JHRover said:

So if we sold 2,000 next year then the year after sold 3,000 you'd consider that success?

in total or you mean on top of the current sales figures? If it the first one, then it's pointless point cos it will never happen

35 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Of course the performance of rival clubs is relevant. If you aren't interested in how other clubs get on in comparison to Rovers then there's not much point being involved in competitive sport - the whole point of which is to outperform rivals. If just about every other club is getting more people on watching and are increasing their ticket sales, and we are bucking the trend by heading backwards on attendances, then someone somewhere should be very alarmed by it.

The chickens are coming home to roost on crowds and anyone who suggests the numbers are good or isn't worried about the numbers at Ewood and recent trajectory of attendances clearly isn't paying attention.

Waggott isn't paying attention. He's not here to improve or grow the club, and clearly has no remit nor intention to do anything serious about it. He's got a narrowly defined set of powers that amount to occasional 'promotions' usually with various strings attached or rolled out for fixtures that nobody wants to go to.

Waggott is paid to make the balance sheet look better each summer when those in India review it. He's probably survived 5 years on his salary because he's advanced an argument he is worth employing because he's increased income and cut losses by more than that.

Unfortunately, when you are a Championship football club, playing in a competitive league, in a competitive part of the country, in the middle of a pandemic and economic crisis, there is a bit more to it than working out how to extract more money in the coming weeks and months from a dwindling support base. There is a bigger picture. A short, medium and long term. Not in Waggott land there isn't. An opportunist interested only in the next few weeks never mind years who knows full well he won't be here to pick up the pieces down the line. Again it comes back to the owners - someone of his 'calibre' wouldn't have got near running this Club under competent owners and wouldn't have survived this long through deteriorating attendances. But our owners seem quite happy to have a patsy in situ who pays for himself with his schemes and who deflects attention away from them.

Well, we have disagreed on it this point because I don't think it relevant to compare different clubs season tickets when they are many different factors involved. 

Our attendances have improved on last season and the 2019/20 season haven't there?

Plus Over 3k walk on's on Saturday against Birmingham. 

Also need to factor that we are 2nd in the league and under JDT who is a winner compare to Mowbray will hopefully see an increase in people attending due to the team performance. 

35 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Most clubs are aware of the situation and risks of plummeting gates, which is why they have taken the bold step of reducing ticket prices, enabling hard up fans to renew in difficult times when the temptation is there to give up and save the money.

League One Bolton and PNE getting 5-6 thousand more season ticket holder than us is a disgrace. No ifs or buts about it.

Match day tickets have been increase at some clubs now. 

Do you think our match day prices are too high then? Do you think 20 to 30 pounds is too much when PNE and Burnley is higher than ours?

 

[Mattyblue]

Our attendances are not better than 2019/20.

 

(Not sure why you are carrying this on considering you admitted yesterday yourself that sales are not good).

Edited October 25, 2022 by Mattyblue

[chaddyrovers]

14 minutes ago, Butty said:

Yes, absolutely they were, they’ve been too expensive now for far too long and I just wish one season the club would try something else. Make the early bird prices a hell of a lot more attractive and run a big promo campaign for it, if the numbers aren’t good enough then the club can turn round and say “we tried” 

In 2016, our ST prices for BBE were £299. Now its £399. So that's an increase of £16.66 per season. 

What do you called a big promo campaign? Rovers used club website, social media channels and local paper already. 

 

[chaddyrovers]

17 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Our attendances are not better than 2019/20.

 

(Not sure why you are carrying this on considering you admitted yesterday yourself that sales are not good).

I never said the sales are not good either Matty. I said they have improved which they have. 

[roversfan99]

The fact that there is a team within half an hour distance away with much bigger attendances at the moment and much lower prices, without the excitement of a new manager, and that is being dismissed as not relevant suggests that there will never be an acknowledgement from chaddy that the numbers are piss poor here.

[JHRover]

13 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

in total or you mean on top of the current sales figures? If it the first one, then it's pointless point cos it will never happen

Well, we have disagreed on it this point because I don't think it relevant to compare different clubs season tickets when they are many different factors involved. 

Our attendances have improved on last season and the 2019/20 season haven't there?

Plus Over 3k walk on's on Saturday against Birmingham. 

Also need to factor that we are 2nd in the league and under JDT who is a winner compare to Mowbray will hopefully see an increase in people attending due to the team performance. 

Match day tickets have been increase at some clubs now. 

Do you think our match day prices are too high then? Do you think 20 to 30 pounds is too much when PNE and Burnley is higher than ours?

 

There aren't really that many factors involved in season ticket sales.

Price and product are the main 2 for the vast majority. Of course some people fall into smaller categories - personal circumstances, moving away, working on matchdays, but I'd bet that the vast majority of people who aren't in the (diminishing) core of those who will always renew no matter what make their decision based on either the affordability/price of a season ticket or their belief/confidence/enjoyment in the product being served up, or a combination of those two things.

When we look at sales at Blackpool, Bolton and Preston there is no chance that they are selling more than us because they are able to offer a more attractive product - they can't. So it likely comes down to price, and it just so happens all are considerably cheaper than ours.

Yes I do think our match day prices are too high. I've said it before I think a match adult ticket for Rovers should be £20 in all areas bar JW Upper central. This should be a flat price for all home games and all tickets should be on sale NOW not a couple of weeks before the match. We have the luxury here of vast space - we could give tickets away and not fill the 23,000 home seats - so I'd adopt an approach of sell as many and fill as many seats as possible otherwise they are just sitting empty.

I recognise however that in putting season ticket prices so high that £20 matchday tickets are not feasible. This is another reason season ticket prices need reducing so that even at £20 matchday tickets season ticket holders are still saving.

We all know why they won't get near £20 on a consistent basis and that is because there is always one eye on making money from the away fans. But there are ways around that - the 1875 membership could be used better - a member could qualify for £20 tickets to all home games or a reduction on their season ticket, non members pay a higher price. Thus continue to charge  more for away fans and offer a real incentive to join the membership scheme.

[islander200]

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The fact that there is a team within half an hour distance away with much bigger attendances at the moment and much lower prices, without the excitement of a new manager, and that is being dismissed as not relevant suggests that there will never be an acknowledgement from chaddy that the numbers are piss poor here.

Who spend f all in the market and don't run a squad as big as ours.

Tickets should be cheaper but comparisons with Wigan and Preston are nonsense unless you would accept us not competing in the transfer market and cutting the wage bill even further

[chaddyrovers]

12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The fact that there is a team within half an hour distance away with much bigger attendances at the moment and much lower prices, without the excitement of a new manager, and that is being dismissed as not relevant suggests that there will never be an acknowledgement from chaddy that the numbers are piss poor here.

But as Islander has posted they don't have wage bill or spend what we have in the transfer market have they? Plus running our level of debt which people overlooked time after after

After Blackpool game, PNE fans were complaining on Rsdio Lancs the lack of investment and spending on quality striker.

Edited October 25, 2022 by chaddyrovers

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Who spend f all in the market and don't run a squad as big as ours.

Tickets should be cheaper but comparisons with Wigan and Preston are nonsense unless you would accept us not competing in the transfer market and cutting the wage bill even further

What sort of logic is that?! Preston don't subsidise their tickets as a strategic decision as opposed to investing in their squad!

A club is always trying to strike the perfect balance between quantity and price. Using rounded figures as an example and factoring in concessions with my averages. If we sell 8000 season tickets at an average of £300, that is £2.4m, say Preston's is £250, they would need to sell 9600 tickets, so not that many more. Anything more is profit, not before factoring in the potential to sell further season tickets in the future to those additional fans, as well as additional match day sales in the ground on food/drink etc.

@chaddyrovers see above. Absolutely warped logic to not appreciate that lower prices means higher numbers of sales and can potentially generate more income, directly and indirectly.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

55 minutes ago, smiller14 said:

A big issue is the lack of fans after COVID. Other clubs saw a spike in attendance - finally back after empty stadiums etc. We never had that bounce at all. And it was compounded by price rises and being uncompetitive price wise with local rivals who have very similar demographics. Unsurprisingly, they are selling much more than us, despite us actually enjoying more on pitch success than them both (PNE, Bolton).

800 new season ticket holders is nothing to write home about; was a great opportunity to really hammer home the 'fresh start', with a new manager and young prospects to be proud of. Just felt like an opportunity missed. 

Just one of a long list of “ opportunities missed “.

[Mattyblue]

We have 8,700 ST holders. It’s very simple. You either think that’s acceptable for Blackburn Rovers or you don’t.

If you do, then it shows your lack of ambition and standards for this club. Though I suppose such low expectations within the fanbase shouldn’t be surprising after the past decade of attrition.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Mattyblue

[chaddyrovers]

10 minutes ago, JHRover said:

There aren't really that many factors involved in season ticket sales.

Price and product are the main 2 for the vast majority. Of course some people fall into smaller categories - personal circumstances, moving away, working on matchdays, but I'd bet that the vast majority of people who aren't in the (diminishing) core of those who will always renew no matter what make their decision based on either the affordability/price of a season ticket or their belief/confidence/enjoyment in the product being served up, or a combination of those two things.

I can go to every home game whether midweek or weekend and my work or family commitments doesn't stop me going. 

some people I used to go with during the PL days under Hughes and Allardyce no longer attend Rovers games and very little interest in Rovers nowadays as they moved on with the life, got married and had kids. Could you get them back? I would say no chance now. 

I also think clubs are going to struggle to attract fans to stadium if the EFL follow through with selling rights to 3pm kick offs to Netflix or Amazon. 

10 minutes ago, JHRover said:

When we look at sales at Blackpool, Bolton and Preston there is no chance that they are selling more than us because they are able to offer a more attractive product - they can't. So it likely comes down to price, and it just so happens all are considerably cheaper than ours.

But PNE match day tickets is higher than us at 30 pounds plus for games. Also, I know that PNE have a problem with fans buying under 18 season tickets instead of full adult price. 

10 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Yes I do think our match day prices are too high. I've said it before I think a match adult ticket for Rovers should be £20 in all areas bar JW Upper central. This should be a flat price for all home games and all tickets should be on sale NOW not a couple of weeks before the match. We have the luxury here of vast space - we could give tickets away and not fill the 23,000 home seats - so I'd adopt an approach of sell as many and fill as many seats as possible otherwise they are just sitting empty.

I recognise however that in putting season ticket prices so high that £20 matchday tickets are not feasible. This is another reason season ticket prices need reducing so that even at £20 matchday tickets season ticket holders are still saving.

We all know why they won't get near £20 on a consistent basis and that is because there is always one eye on making money from the away fans. But there are ways around that - the 1875 membership could be used better - a member could qualify for £20 tickets to all home games or a reduction on their season ticket, non members pay a higher price. Thus continue to charge  more for away fans and offer a real incentive to join the membership scheme.

I don't the need to put all 23 match days tickets on sale from the start of the season. There isn't valued in it for me. I could see the point month early. 

on Prices, I could see the value in prices at 20 pounds, but then you need lower your ST prices which could lead your total income from tickets sales being reduced so it's balance act and where a proper plan is need here. 

Your point on the 1875 membership is a fair one. 

[Mattyblue]

It’s called supply and demand.

As PNE now only have limited tickets to sell in the three home stands due to large numbers of ST holders, they can charge top whack for match day tickets as its largely away fans that will be buying them… we don’t quite have that problem, do we!

Edited October 25, 2022 by Mattyblue

[smiller14]

It's a simple business decision. If you lower the price, you do so in the hope you sell enough extra tickets to 'make it up'. I don't understand how people are struggling with this and are talking about transfer budgets? By that logic we might as well charge £1,000 a season ticket - there's a clear link between uptake and price!

Obviously, some will renew anyway, and there needs to be a business decision over the correct price to charge that will maximise revenue. My argument is our current pricing does not maximise revenue. If we discounted season tickets by £100, we'd need to make up £870,000 elsewhere (based on 8,700 season ticket holders). So it would need us to sell 2,500-3,000 more season tickets. If it's £50, that number decreases - so on and so forth. That's a simplification as I know we charged different amounts for renewers vs newbies, so that number may well be lower as it was the non-renewers that were shafted last year.

As for the problem PNE have with under 18s buying season tickets, that isn't unique to them. People do it at Rovers too.

I take the point on us having cheaper matchday pricing, but we don't seem to get too many walk ons. 

Ignoring prices, could we do more? We used to scream and shout about our offers, now you see the odd Twitter post. Can we encourage a better atmosphere by directing 'singers' to a certain part of the BBE? Lots of creative thinking needed imo. This could generate revenue whilst also creating a better matchday atmosphere - this in turn can impact performances on the pitch whilst still encouraging sales (I've seen certain sections at grounds grow and grow and increase overall attendances. Even Reading have a singing section that gets bigger by the week.). 

We are doing a lot right as a club, including securing our long-term assets, but we can certainly do more. 

[Mattyblue]

The football side of the club has improved markedly, the commercial side is appalling as ever.

A new broom is urgently required…

[roversfan99]

Also, obviously there will be people who have kids, get new jobs or whatever and cant go but thats not something unique to this club nor is it one way as there will always be a churn of fans who cant go and ones who potentially now can go. 

[tomphil]

The singing section thing never works at Ewood it's very much an organic thing with Rovers fans.

They don't really last elsewhere either, Huddersfield did it and got a good response in the section next to away fans. That was though built on the back of cheap STs and a bit of success on the pitch  - note the correlation there.

Reading are doing similar now although iv'e no idea on their ticket prices but unless they keep it cheaper in there it won't last they are just fads that die out.  If  Rovers were going to do it it should have been built upon the DE home section when it was open but that was another trick missed by Waggot.

All he wanted to do was close it.

[chaddyrovers]

42 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

What sort of logic is that?! Preston don't subsidise their tickets as a strategic decision as opposed to investing in their squad!

A club is always trying to strike the perfect balance between quantity and price. Using rounded figures as an example and factoring in concessions with my averages. If we sell 8000 season tickets at an average of £300, that is £2.4m, say Preston's is £250, they would need to sell 9600 tickets, so not that many more. Anything more is profit, not before factoring in the potential to sell further season tickets in the future to those additional fans, as well as additional match day sales in the ground on food/drink etc.

@chaddyrovers see above. Absolutely warped logic to not appreciate that lower prices means higher numbers of sales and can potentially generate more income, directly and indirectly.

Rovers said they generated 2.25 million from 7,800 ST sold. Fans Forum meeting in July sourced of info. 

Yes lower ST prices and match day prices could potentially generate more income but how much more is the question given that people will likely buy a new shirt at the start of the season and less likely right now.