History Club

[riverholmes]

A place to talk about history and share recommendations of what you are currently reading, watching, listening or thinking about. Feel free to share on the local to the international - whatever is holding your interest and want to share.

If you share links, please give some written context to help us decide whether we want to find out more.

If you want to debate history, please keep on topic. Some more recent history might be better placed in other threads but I appreciate that it is all connected.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I’m a history buff but at the moment I’m trying to get through the books I got bought for my birthday. Eddie Jones ( England RU Coach ) biography, Dave Groehl ( Foo Fighters ) biography, and The History of Rochdale Hornets. The first two aren’t really my cup of tea.

[Mattyblue]

Now you’re talking!

The Rest is History Podcast with Tom Holland (not that one!) and Dominic Sandbrook is fantastic. Great knowledge, but they don’t take it all too seriously like many an American podcast.

With events in Ukraine it has got me delving into the aftermath of the Second World War a lot at the moment. It is striking to see how many of the major issues we are having across the world currently goes back to the fallout from it… the advance of the USSR across Eastern Europe, the Chinese civil war and the escape of the losing Nationalists to Taiwan, the end of Empires, Israel/Palestine etc etc.

[Adam C]

“You’re dead to me” is an excellent history podcast. Good guests and interesting topics 👍 

After listening to YDTM I got into Peter frankopan, currently reading his excellent book “the Silk Road”. Looks at the Near East, and how the flow of trade, philosophy and culture from east to west has affected world history and cultural development. A very readable overview on historical developments since the Roman Empire.

I’ve also enjoyed “genghis khan and the making of the modern world”, a revisionist look at the monghol empire which certainly opened my eyes to a different viewpoint on the period (eg the mongols were incredibly liberal with regards to religious practice and pretty much had full freedom of religious expression in their conquered territories). 

Great idea for a topic, I’m looking forward to hearing what others are in to. 
 

[Mike E]

For years I've loved several history-based YouTube channels. The best probably being TheGreatWar and RealTimeHistory.

[riverholmes]

Borrowed these suggestions from another thread.

On 26/05/2022 at 15:25, Mike E said:

The Russian Revolution stuff on Netflix is really good too. The period between the wars is really fascinating because you can see how the Peace was never truly a peace.

 

On 26/05/2022 at 15:10, ChrisyG said:

If anyone finds World War II interesting I can recommend WWII in colour on Netflix, it's a very good watch. Also, Hitlers Inner Circle - I can't remember which channel I watched that but it was fascinating. What a bunch of evil f*ckers they were.

 

[riverholmes]

Thanks for the suggestions so far, will be looking into them. I've been watching/reading a little about the Irish Civil War that occurred during 1922-23, with a sort of civil war targeting, particularly, Catholics, in newly formed Northern Ireland, occurring concurrently at this time too. Civilians and police were being assassinated almost every day 100 years ago, in both NI and the Irish Free State.

The Civil War in the Ireland, for those who aren't familiar, started as there was a split in the IRA, with a section deeply opposed to the Anglo-Irish Treaty that the Irish independence leaders negotiated with the British government in 1921, led by David Lloyd George, Churchill and others. That agreement won a ceasefire and self-governance in Ireland after years of brutal fighting against Crown forces for independence but its terms meant remaining a dominion of the British Empire, Irish politicians having their own parliament but having to swear allegiance to the Crown, most British military withdrawing and, as part of the a deal,  partition of Ireland, with six counties in the north-east forming Northern Ireland and remaining in the UK. Apparently, the requirement to swear allegiance to the Crown was the biggest issue for the IRA in the south.

The majority of the public, including a slim majority in the new Sinn Féin government, supported this "independence to gain independence" Anglo-Irish Treaty - Ireland would formally leave the British commonwealth and became a republic in 1949 - so, to my mind, this seems as if it became a coup attempt by the anti-Treaty IRA - but it's not a phrase I've seen describing the situation, so I might be misinterpreting it.

June 28th will mark what historians generally consider the start of the Civil War, though, violence and negotiations had been occurring for months. Whilst Ireland is, of course, marking this centenary, in Britain, I suppose, it will be considered unbecoming to talk about in this Platinum Jubilee year. In Ireland there has been a "Decade of Centenaries" national programme, starting with commemoration of the 1916 Easter Rising, I believe. If you think of the Irishmen, nationalist and unionist, who fought in the British Army during WW1, those who were affected by the Irish War of Independence (1919-1921) and the subsequent Civil War (1922-23) and violence in NI, Ireland was at outright war for nearly a decade, with a significant part of the period, as part of the UK.

Edited May 29, 2022 by riverholmes

[Mattyblue]

The Wind that Shakes The Barley is a great film on the Civil War, with Cillian Murphy.

People often get confused with Irish politics and wonder why two centre-right parties have historically been the two that have contested power and not one each from left and right.

It goes back to the Civil War - Fianna Fàil being anti treaty, party of Eamon De Valera, and Fine Gael (Michael Collins) being for it.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

The Wind that Shakes The Barley is a great film on the Civil War, with Cillian Murphy.

People often get confused with Irish politics and wonder why two centre-right parties have historically been the two that have contested power and not one each from left and right.

It goes back to the Civil War - Fianna Fàil being anti treaty, party of Eamon De Valera, and Fine Gael (Michael Collins) being for it.

I would imagine that the Catholic Church would have a bearing on the lack of a left wing party in Ireland.

[Mattyblue]

Certainly an element of that, and Fianna Fáil were always fairly populist, leaning left economically, right socially. So they have largely dominated Irish politics as a ‘big tent’ party since independence.

[riverholmes]

On 29/05/2022 at 21:54, Mattyblue said:

The Wind that Shakes The Barley is a great film on the Civil War, with Cillian Murphy.

People often get confused with Irish politics and wonder why two centre-right parties have historically been the two that have contested power and not one each from left and right.

It goes back to the Civil War - Fianna Fàil being anti treaty, party of Eamon De Valera, and Fine Gael (Michael Collins) being for it.

That's interesting - it sounds as if the nationalism and independence drive that took precedence over individual rights, particularly, worker rights somehow got entrenched long-term? The Irish Labour Party & TUC opted out of electoral politics for two elections after WW1, which, maybe, set the tone, I've heard some say that James Connolly, the socialist leader and a founder of the Irish Labour Party, who took part in the Easter Rising 1916 - and was amongst those executed by the British authorities - made a mistake in not insisting on a socialist manifesto within the Proclamation of Independence that was issued in those six days of uprising in Dublin. Thus, his and the legacy of the Irish Citizen Army, the Labour movement militia, was easier to ignore? Though, I'm not sure how receptive the other uprising leaders were to labour or how influential the precise text of the Proclamation was. (The uprising, itself, against the odds in 1916 when Britain was heavily militarised for war and Irishmen were volunteering in the British Army to fight Germany, is considered a mistake by some too)

I suppose it is very difficult, when your country is at war against outside rulers and then is partitioned and given self-government, over which terms an internal war commences, to convince people to think about civil rights, be it women's or workers' issues, for example. Also, I believe that the nationalist movements had agents and advocates in the Irish labour movement who sought to relegate its voice and power, including, perhaps, by encouraging the severing of ties with English trade unions.

Edited May 31, 2022 by riverholmes

[Gav]

In 1889:

Charlie Chaplin was born, as was Adolf Hitler. The Eiffel Tower was opened, Jack the Ripper was at large, Nintendo was formed and the pizza margarita was invented. 

Blackburn Rovers finished 4th and reached the semi final of FA Cup. 

What a year that was…..

Edited June 5, 2022 by Gav

[riverholmes]

Sharing from another thread:

16 hours ago, Gav said:

BBC4 Wednesday 9pm - Thatcher: A Very British Revolution. Followed by The Falklands Play.

2 brilliant programs from BBC for anyone who hasn’t seen them.  

[bazza]

On 29/05/2022 at 17:20, riverholmes said:

 

The Civil War in the Ireland, for those who aren't familiar, started as there was a split in the IRA, with a section deeply opposed to the Anglo-Irish Treaty that the Irish independence leaders negotiated with the British government in 1921, led by David Lloyd George, Churchill and others. That agreement won a ceasefire and self-governance in Ireland after years of brutal fighting against Crown forces for independence but its terms meant remaining a dominion of the British Empire, Irish politicians having their own parliament but having to swear allegiance to the Crown, most British military withdrawing and, as part of the a deal,  partition of Ireland, with six counties in the north-east forming Northern Ireland and remaining in the UK. Apparently, the requirement to swear allegiance to the Crown was the biggest issue for the IRA in the south.

The majority of the public, including a slim majority in the new Sinn Féin government, supported this "independence to gain independence" Anglo-Irish Treaty - Ireland would formally leave the British commonwealth and became a republic in 1949 - so, to my mind, this seems as if it became a coup attempt by the anti-Treaty IRA - but it's not a phrase I've seen describing the situation, so I might be misinterpreting it.

 

So that explains why " 45572 Eire" was a "Jubilee" Class railway engine among all the engines named after countries or states of the British Empire. The Class was introduced in 1934.

[Riversider28]

22 hours ago, bazza said:

So that explains why " 45572 Eire" was a "Jubilee" Class railway engine among all the engines named after countries or states of the British Empire. The Class was introduced in 1934.

The engine was originally named Irish Free State in March 1936 and then renamed Eire in September 1938. It was eventually withdrawn from service in January 1964.