v Wigan Athletic (a) 11/10/2022

[Hasta]

7 hours ago, RoverDom said:

3 points off top and people want to sack the manager. Ludicrous. 

There's a middle ground between stick uping with mowbray for 5 years and giving a manager with a 50% win rate the boot after 14 games

I don't want to sack him. I just want him to stop messing around passing it about within 20 yards of our own goal when we are in danger. Cost us at Luton. Cost us last night. 

Also, try playing your more threatening and creative players more often. (Not at full back)

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Hasta

[Armchair supporter supremo]

It's starting to seem like JDT has overestimated(or underestimated. however you want to look at it) the championship. He needs to suck up some pride and adapt accordingly 

[joey_big_nose]

1 minute ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

It's starting to seem like JDT has overestimated(or underestimated. however you want to look at it) the championship. He needs to suck up some pride and adapt accordingly 

Yeah I agree with this... he doesn't seem to value winning a midfield battle, and that is really what the Championship is all about. It seems the idea is we can just bypass midfield by playing long into the channels, or breaking quickly and directly from defence.

Part of it is the recruitment... we've brought in a lot of forwards but few midfielders, and that creates pressure for JDT to play 3 or 4 forwards every game as otherwise it makes the recruitment (which I am sure he was closely consulted on) look daft.  But.... still he's the manager and we have Dack, Adam Wharton, Buckley on the bench or out of the squad. He could play one of them and leave out a forward no problem. 

It feels a bit ideological - like they've come in with the philosophy of playing loads of forwards will definitely be successful, and feel it's just a matter of time until it "clicks". I don;t think it will. Poor sides like Wigan were totally untroubled by us, and strong side like Norwich will eat us alive.

[roverandout]

6 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Worrying night again - when you boil it down football is a fairly simple game and imo from what I've seen this season we've too many poor players in and around the starting eleven. You might be able to get away with one passenger like Gallagher but when you've got a plethora of players that imo aren't up to it such as Gallagher, Hirst, Szmodics, and Hedges then you aren't going to achieve results on a consistent enough basis. in fact the only surprise is that our win ratio is as high as it is. Unfortunately I dont see that 50% rate continuing  unless there is a massive uplift in performance levels in general.

Conversely our most talented player, who badly needs game time to recover match sharpness can't get a look in and Morton as far as I can see isn't a patch on our own homegrown talent Adam Wharton and is merely serving to keep him out of the side and hinder his development. For me we need to start Dack and the younger Wharton and the other players should be covering for them if required, not the other way round

However we can change tactics /personnel the thing that arguably worries me the most is seeing us tip tap the ball about at the back with zero urgency when we're a goal down. We saw the same thing at home a few weeks ago against Bristol City when 1-3 behind. To me that indicates a lack of passion and desire and maybe indicates the players aren't fully buying into what they are being asked to do by JDT.

Agree with the others but Hedges is definitely up to it

[joey_big_nose]

Just to expand on the above us not really being interested in the midfield battle is a big part of the not being able to recover from a losing position. If you get ahead with the approach of bypassing the midfield it's great because the other side opens up a bit and you can go direct into the forwards and they have a lot of room and lots of opportunities can be made on the counter. But if we go behind and the opposition close up then knocking long to three forwards strung across the back line is just meat and drink to the defenders.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

7 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Yeah I agree with this... he doesn't seem to value winning a midfield battle, and that is really what the Championship is all about. It seems the idea is we can just bypass midfield by playing long into the channels, or breaking quickly and directly from defence.

Part of it is the recruitment... we've brought in a lot of forwards but few midfielders, and that creates pressure for JDT to play 3 or 4 forwards every game as otherwise it makes the recruitment (which I am sure he was closely consulted on) look daft.  But.... still he's the manager and we have Dack, Adam Wharton, Buckley on the bench or out of the squad. He could play one of them and leave out a forward no problem. 

It feels a bit ideological - like they've come in with the philosophy of playing loads of forwards will definitely be successful, and feel it's just a matter of time until it "clicks". I don;t think it will. Poor sides like Wigan were totally untroubled by us, and strong side like Norwich will eat us alive.

 Totally agree

For away games at least we should now just do what hughes and Allardyce did, a solid 451 and just dont give the opposition an inch, because we have to start turning some of those loses into draws at least! Problem is though, that usually requires having at least 1 double hard bugger of an anchor man/definsive midfilder type which we haven't got. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Armchair supporter supremo

[benhben]

Starting to think JDT is going to become a Henning Berg type appointment. Young coach with some big ideas of total football that sound good, but ultimately don't work in England or they haven't got the ability to coach it into the players. 

Hope I'm wrong but starting to become less and less optimistic. 

Shame as I think the Championship is weak this year and a manager with a bit of nous and the backing JDT had in the transfer window would have us right up there. 

 

[Guest]

Terrible system last night for playing Wigan. Absolutely no reason to play a 5. We got nothing from having the extra centre-back. Huge shame, if we'd packed the midfield from the get go we could've had them.

[joey_big_nose]

11 minutes ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

 Totally agree

For away games at least we should now just do what hughes and Allardyce did, a solid 451 and just dont give the opposition an inch, because we have to start turning some of those loses into draws at least! Problem is though, that usually requires having at least 1 double hard bugger of an anchor man/definsive midfilder type which we haven't got. 

Agreed though I'd go 352 - don't think a physical player is a requirement to be honest (though obviously would be better to have one) the most important thing is to have an extra body in the centre to able to create the options so you can pass through the middle.

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by joey_big_nose

[ChrisyG]

I don't have a problem with us playing out from the back, bringing the opposition into our half and playing through the lines. However, we have only one ball playing centre back in Wharton and the majority of the time, we don't pass the ball around quick enough or with any purpose. We are also playing 3 up front and creating very few chances. The end result is it's very very very boring to watch. I haven't been this bored watching Rovers since Allardyce was in charge.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

5 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Agreed though I'd go 352

Im just old fasioned, anything other than a back 4 seems unnecessary to me 😄  id have us playing with 2 old school natural crossing wingers as well if they still even existed! 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Armchair supporter supremo

[arbitro]

4 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Terrible system last night for playing Wigan. Absolutely no reason to play a 5. We got nothing from having the extra centre-back. Huge shame, if we'd packed the midfield from the get go we could've had them.

That's pretty much the story of each time he has played a back five. We have been simply overrun in midfield and when it's Travis and Morton in there it is, at times a back seven. Tomasson really needs to wise up to what the Championship is really about. His sound bites are good but they won't help him when the supporters become vocally disgruntled at the tedious, pedestrian football he is trying to play.

[Sparks Rover]

Just now, ChrisyG said:

I don't have a problem with us playing out from the back, bringing the opposition into our half and playing through the lines. However, we have only one ball playing centre back in Wharton and the majority of the time, we don't pass the ball around quick enough or with any purpose. We are also playing 3 up front and creating very few chances. The end result is it's very very very boring to watch. I haven't been this bored watching Rovers since Allardyce was in charge.

Yep, I keep banging on about this and people take the piss and offer up players like.Carter etc....

To play 3 at the back you need players who are quick and comfy on the ball.  Our CHs are good but not at that.  Lenihan wasn't any good for that either....basically he needs to go back to a 4 at the back and then start from there....I'd have brought in a big strapping central mid to look after things and let the Whartons/Mortons of this world go play....we missed the boat about 18 months ago when Preston signed one of the best midfielders in the division to play that position.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Convenient I said last night that the one player who we tend to avoid turning to and giving a chance happens to be the biggest earner and at the wrong end of the age scale for the 'project'

I've seen enough over the years to question whether that one is purely footballing.

You don't keep leaving a guy like him on the bench when you need goals.  It just cannot be a footballing decision and it is taking the piss out of fans now.

I pointed out to Sharpe he might want to directly ask JDT just what is really going on there because supporters aren't stupid so don't treat them that way.  I'd expect to see a dinosaur walking down the M65 before he dare ask anything like that though.

I'd say they are praying someone comes in with 500k for him in January and he's off the books. His agent will no doubt be sounding out any potential interest as we speak.

[roverblue]

I feel like a stuck record but its the same issue again and again at the moment. The cohesion between defence, midfield and attack is non-existent, its like 3 mini teams playing instead of 1. 

For the first time this season, Morton on Saturday dropped in and ran the show linking the defence and midfield. The attack was still very much separate but thankfully broke away and scored 3 goals.

Last night Morton didnt manage to replicate it and as a result the whole thing broke down like in most matches this season. In fact he ended up giving them a goal so you could argue cancels out his performance on Saturday!

Under JDT we are tactically atrocious, forget being up near the top end of the league for the most part this season we have been utter shite. I thought the days of wingers at right back and strikers on the wing were over when Mowbray left.

The manager says he needs the world cup break to instill his style of play into the team so I am willing to give him that. But if this same performance is rolled out after that then you have to start questioning his ability surely.

[joey_big_nose]

10 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Terrible system last night for playing Wigan. Absolutely no reason to play a 5. We got nothing from having the extra centre-back. Huge shame, if we'd packed the midfield from the get go we could've had them.

Disagree personally... I think if we'd gone four at the back we would have had the keystone cops passing it around the back and being sliced open with ease as happened at Cardiff.

What's funny about our current approach of 1) playing lots of forwards pushed up very high, 2) liking conversely to pass it out from the back, is when we do pass it round the back it's very hard to find someone in midfield to actually pass it to. Not such a problem when you have three CB  as at least you can pass it along the line and we did that okay (except for Morton huge individual error). But when we have two CB like Cardiff it's absolute carnage.

[jim mk2]

Tomasson seems like an intelligent chap, more so than his recent predecessors, and a trait of intelligent people is they can see when something isn't working and they change it. 

He must see now that his obsession with passing game ideology, especially away from home, doesn't work in the Championship because we don't have the players to do it and it's a tough league full of gritty, hard-working teams and managers who will soon find you out

Starting with the next away game, I want to see a change of tactics, or at least a willingness to mix our game up more. We cannot carry on like this because it clearly isn't working. Over to you, Mr Manager

[arbitro]

7 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Disagree personally... I think if we'd gone four at the back we would have had the keystone cops passing it around the back and being sliced open with ease as happened at Cardiff.

What's funny about our current approach of 1) playing lots of forwards pushed up very high, 2) liking conversely to pass it out from the back, is when we do pass it round the back it's very hard to find someone in midfield to actually pass it to. Not such a problem when you have three CB  as at least you can pass it along the line and we did that okay (except for Morton huge individual error). But when we have two CB like Cardiff it's absolute carnage.

One of the restrictions of only playing two in midfield (and they are invariably outnumbered) is that it's really difficult to play out from the back through midfield as the opponents usually have an extra man. Time and time again one of the defenders plays it to a midfielder who is facing him and is tightly marked. His only option is to give it back then rinse and repeat. It's utterly pointless and something Tomasson needs to eradicate (unless of course he's happy with it).

[ben_the_beast]

The main things I remember from JDTs first press conferences were he wanted to incorporate 2 things into our style of play. 

1. Moving the ball quickly from back to front. He said possession was important, but it had to be of the useful kind and not possession for possessions sake. 

2. He wanted his teams to press from the front and be high energy off the ball. Winning it back quickly. 

This style is very Klopp at Dortmund. Gegenpressing I think the Germans called it. I'm not expecting us to be a Klopp like team but those 2 basic principles he outlined from the off. I am seeing neither. The style I'm witnessing him try to incorporate is the exact opposite of those principles. 

It's right that questions are being asked.

[Crozzy]

1 hour ago, BRFC_Polky said:

I’m struggling to understand what the game plan was last night. It was worrying to see that none of our players closed down Wigan crosses and they were free to whip balls into the box as they pleased. 
 

I think most agree that JDT isn’t a big fan of Dack and that may be due to his pressing/fitness. I can’t say that he would have done worse than Szomdics in the first half. I don’t think Szomdics ran himself into the ground?
 

If Hirst can show that he’s an half decent football player and Dack playing off him we might start to see some better results away from home?

My biggest issue with JDT possibly not liking Dacks fitness/press is that there’s no press at the moment anyway

[Sparks Rover]

8 minutes ago, Crozzy said:

My biggest issue with JDT possibly not liking Dacks fitness/press is that there’s no press at the moment anyway

It's bullshit in my opinion this Dack doesn't fit into systems.   He worries opposition defenders because he has quality and an eye for goal.  Hirst wouldn't worry me, Gallagher is a donkey and Dolan you can flick off......Major fail for me is not getting Dack integral to this system.

JDT comes across as a nice man, looks to be some personal problem with Dack....can't see anything else

Edited October 12, 2022 by Sparks Rover

[Crozzy]

32 minutes ago, tomphil said:

You don't keep leaving a guy like him on the bench when you need goals.  It just cannot be a footballing decision and it is taking the piss out of fans now.

I pointed out to Sharpe he might want to directly ask JDT just what is really going on there because supporters aren't stupid so don't treat them that way.  I'd expect to see a dinosaur walking down the M65 before he dare ask anything like that though.

I'd say they are praying someone comes in with 500k for him in January and he's off the books. His agent will no doubt be sounding out any potential interest as we speak.

I agree with this. If it was a footballing decision and we had better player then fair enough. But we all know it’s not a footballing decision and I think a lot of the fans our getting annoyed now. We aren’t doing well enough without him. we aren’t giving him a chance. 
Club need to be careful freezing out a fan favourite, they’ll find the walls coming in before long on them

[RV Blue]

2 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

George and David Hirst, Nigel Pearson, Remy Reijnierse. Connection: Sheffield Wednesday

OH Leuven, managed by Pearson, and Leicester City. Connection: Pearson and both clubs owned by King Power.

Hirst is not looking good and not a kid in footballing terms.

I had look at his career path and influences on it. A dot joining exercise.

What possessed Leicester to move him from Belgium only King Power can answer.

If we pay any sort of fee for this 4th rate Ashley Ward then frankly, something is amiss.

 

[arealbrfcfan]

I would like to know how much money I’ve spent over the years watching Wigan beat us? And how much I’ve spent on travel to do it

[arealbrfcfan]

I feel like the old woman in Titanic who’s lived a life of loss then I throw my season ticket into the Atlantic