v Luton Town (a) - 17/9/22

[Gav]

18 minutes ago, M_B said:

I'm not unhappy with Tomasson, I just don't agree that a manager with a "decimated" squad would have the luxury of voluntarily leaving out the above players, especially his main signing.

Tomasson could have all manor of reasons to not be playing the players to mention M_B and I know for sure he wouldn't want to be relying on the likes of Philips and Wharton if he didn't have to.

Last season we clearly lacked quality and numbers when injuries and suspensions hit, we are worse off this season in my opinion and that could lead to a relegation scrap this time around. 

 

[M_B]

1 minute ago, Gav said:

Tomasson could have all manor of reasons to not be playing the players to mention M_B and I know for sure he wouldn't want to be relying on the likes of Philips and Wharton if he didn't have to.

Last season we clearly lacked quality and numbers when injuries and suspensions hit, we are worse off this season in my opinion and that could lead to a relegation scrap this time around. 

 

I'm not saying he didn't have reasons for leaving them out Gav. As I say, I'm not for one second having a go at Tomasson, I'm quite happy at the moment. 

My argument is that a manager with a supposedly decimated squad does not have the luxury of willingly leaving out the mentioned players, whilst putting in that really good performance against Watford with the same starting 11.

It's an excuse which is trotted out every time we have a stinker, but isn't mentioned when we outplay Watford. 

That's the point I'm making, and I think the evidence backs it up. 

[Gav]

21 minutes ago, M_B said:

I'm not saying he didn't have reasons for leaving them out Gav. As I say, I'm not for one second having a go at Tomasson, I'm quite happy at the moment. 

My argument is that a manager with a supposedly decimated squad does not have the luxury of willingly leaving out the mentioned players, whilst putting in that really good performance against Watford with the same starting 11.

It's an excuse which is trotted out every time we have a stinker, but isn't mentioned when we outplay Watford. 

That's the point I'm making, and I think the evidence backs it up. 

Plenty of posters, me included, have been saying for 2 seasons now that the squad isn't where it needs to be in terms of quality and numbers, this isn't a reaction to a win against an extremely poor Watford side at all.

[47er]

17 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Tell me about it ! I was behind the goals at the Blackburn End. No segregation then. When the third goal went in a Rovers fan who was celebrating got head butted by a scouse guy right in front of me !

I was there too and we did our usual transfer from the Darwen End to the Blackburn End (unthinkable now) and came head to head with some very nasty characters. What a sweet victory that was!

We did it again 1964-5 with Everton, 2-0 down and won 3-2! A latish winner from Duggie. I could only tell we'd scored from the roar of the crowd because the snow was piling down! That was also a fantastic game.

Poor fare we're served these days compared to that.

EDIT--make that 63-64!

Edited September 19, 2022 by 47er

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, M_B said:

I'm quite happy how it's going, when it's gone well,  there have been some really good signs and we've played some exciting football. 

I'm just not having "decimated" when players who are clearly able to play, are being overlooked for ones who were originally here. 

You're giving excuses for the new signings not playing, Brittain is valid although he did come on against Luton. 

Szmodics played on Saturday for the under 21's. 

Mola is a new recruit, but came on against Watford. 

Hirst likewise on Saturday. 

Wharton was left out, as was Markanday,as was Dack. 

I'm not unhappy with Tomasson, I just don't agree that a manager with a "decimated" squad would have the luxury of voluntarily leaving out the above players, especially his main signing. Then, whilst leaving out the above players, managed to play each one of the starting 11 in his preferred position (Carter is arguable). 

That isn't evidence of a decimated squad. 

The number one priority now at ewood is to give players games or mins so as to get experience into some and more value into most.

That is the priority nothing else and they've employed a coach to go along with that, that is the project not the top 6, not yet anyway.  So we are going to see this kind of thing all season regardless of a first 11 being the best first choice and this is before we factor in injuries etc.

Often it won't make sense to anyone but those trying to keep everybody involved bit by bit.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

19 minutes ago, tomphil said:

The number one priority now at ewood is to give players games or mins so as to get experience into some and more value into most.

That is the priority nothing else and they've employed a coach to go along with that, that is the project not the top 6, not yet anyway.  So we are going to see this kind of thing all season regardless of a first 11 being the best first choice and this is before we factor in injuries etc.

Often it won't make sense to anyone but those trying to keep everybody involved bit by bit.

So we get “ more value “ into players and then they leave for nothing or get sold for a fee that rarely gets invested in the playing staff. Around and around we go like a dog chasing it’s tail. Never really moving forward. That’s until the bad season comes along and down we go.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

24 minutes ago, 47er said:

I was there too and we did our usual transfer from the Darwen End to the Blackburn End (unthinkable now) and came head to head with some very nasty characters. What a sweet victory that was!

We did it again 1964-5 with Everton, 2-0 down and won 3-2! A latish winner from Duggie. I could only tell we'd scored from the roar of the crowd because the snow was piling down! That was also a fantastic game.

Poor fare we're served these days compared to that.

I’ll carry this topic on in the nostalgia thread if it’s ok with you ?

[47er]

9 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I’ll carry this topic on in the nostalgia thread if it’s ok with you ?

Good idea!

[tomphil]

13 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

So we get “ more value “ into players and then they leave for nothing or get sold for a fee that rarely gets invested in the playing staff. Around and around we go like a dog chasing it’s tail. Never really moving forward. That’s until the bad season comes along and down we go.

Yes that's the Rovers model preach a sensible plan then do the opposite.

[Commondore]

Second goal is preceded by us losing four straight individual challenges, absolutely terrible. 

[roverstdt]

9 hours ago, SuperBrfc said:

Hang on a minute. Wanting the club to get back to what it was is sad now, is it?

The bit in bold says enough for me. You're not alone, as those at the club seemingly don't give a damn about the Premier League either.

There has to be some sort of weird comfort in mediocrity and playing the victim. Poor Rovers, can't compete with the giants in the Championship, poor young lambs, can't put pressure on them, give 'em a chance. These nasty fans wanting to win are just bullies.

Remember what Mowbray said upon leaving? He hoped that the next manager wasn't a bully who just wants to win all the time. Since when is wanting to win a form of bullying? Is that what football has become these days?

This shit project we have isn't conducive to winning football matches and promotion. It's all about player development, giving minutes to Academy players. That's why there's anger from a few of us on here. This isn't a case of 'first or nothing bro', that's not the demand. They need to show us they are serious about going up, and at the moment they aren't and are about to waste a good few years more of our time.

I'm just sick of the attitude of writing seasons off, going on journeys that lead to nowhere and it just being brushed off as "oh well, young lads, they need time".

Once again taking out of context, you say that the team hasn’t shown anything to prove we are pushing for promotion, we are 7th!!! We are in the dam mix of clubs fighting for the play off so my comment about Top or nothing proves exactly that. It proves you are willing to throw your toy out of pram. Go pick them up and calm down, you are judging our entire season on 10 games I mean Jesus Christ taking the cups into account JDT is a far higher win ratio to Mowbray if you want to compare and contrast a whole performance after 10 games. 

you are saying the club is happY with mediocrity, show me how you know this? Have you been on the board? Have you heard them say ahhhh guys let’s stay here for the next 15 years and chill. No you haven’t, inconsistencies happen in a dam season we are not the invincible’s. I have been to the two most horrendous away games being Luton and Reading so trust me I know first what it is to watch rubbish. Am I going to cry about it? No, I move on to the next game and expect a reaction. If we win we are back in the top six again. Give the man a chance see after half a season where are at, if you throw some toys I will order them for you To chuck out.

 

i what point did I say I didn’t want to win? Of course but judging by your comment and dreaming if you expect us to win the EPL and roll over Man City. This is 2022 not 1990’s and I totally respect and understand the history of our club, where it should be but by no means just because of our history we deserve to be in the EPL of course i hope We get back up but we have had a good start to the season when many predicted we wouldn’t let’s see where it goes a season is not 2 months long 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

50 minutes ago, roverstdt said:

Once again taking out of context, you say that the team hasn’t shown anything to prove we are pushing for promotion, we are 7th!!! We are in the dam mix of clubs fighting for the play off so my comment about Top or nothing proves exactly that. It proves you are willing to throw your toy out of pram. Go pick them up and calm down, you are judging our entire season on 10 games I mean Jesus Christ taking the cups into account JDT is a far higher win ratio to Mowbray if you want to compare and contrast a whole performance after 10 games. 

you are saying the club is happY with mediocrity, show me how you know this? Have you been on the board? Have you heard them say ahhhh guys let’s stay here for the next 15 years and chill. No you haven’t, inconsistencies happen in a dam season we are not the invincible’s. I have been to the two most horrendous away games being Luton and Reading so trust me I know first what it is to watch rubbish. Am I going to cry about it? No, I move on to the next game and expect a reaction. If we win we are back in the top six again. Give the man a chance see after half a season where are at, if you throw some toys I will order them for you To chuck out.

 

i what point did I say I didn’t want to win? Of course but judging by your comment and dreaming if you expect us to win the EPL and roll over Man City. This is 2022 not 1990’s and I totally respect and understand the history of our club, where it should be but by no means just because of our history we deserve to be in the EPL of course i hope We get back up but we have had a good start to the season when many predicted we wouldn’t let’s see where it goes a season is not 2 months long 

We’ve got a board ? Wow, when did that happen ? 

[roverstdt]

12 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

We’ve got a board ? Wow, when did that happen ? 

Now that is getting silly 😂

[Atko's Engine]

1 hour ago, M_B said:

I'm quite happy how it's going, when it's gone well,  there have been some really good signs and we've played some exciting football. 

I'm just not having "decimated" when players who are clearly able to play, are being overlooked for ones who were originally here. 

You're giving excuses for the new signings not playing, Brittain is valid although he did come on against Luton. 

Szmodics played on Saturday for the under 21's. 

Mola is a new recruit, but came on against Watford. 

Hirst likewise on Saturday. 

Wharton was left out, as was Markanday,as was Dack. 

I'm not unhappy with Tomasson, I just don't agree that a manager with a "decimated" squad would have the luxury of voluntarily leaving out the above players, especially his main signing. Then, whilst leaving out the above players, managed to play each one of the starting 11 in his preferred position (Carter is arguable). 

That isn't evidence of a decimated squad. 

My own point regarding the squad being decimated was with regards to comparing TM's last squad to JDT's first.  Clearly now it's a stronger squad than on day one, though arguably still weaker than last season.  I think that's unarguable. 

Clearly the first 10 games were coloured by a lack of options & being forced to give debuts to teenagers & play men out of position. Despite that, we got 5 wins (+ 2 cup wins), which I think is a very solid return in context, and more than comparable to what Kompany or Beale have achieved, for example.

Now we have a fixed squad for 3 months, the next portions of games pre- and post-world cup are about getting them to gel, developing plans a, b and c, whilst also planning for the January window to bring in ripe & ready players that can slot neatly into the squad & give us the chance to better cope with inevitable injuries & suspensions & have a strong finish to the season. 

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me, and we're in decent shape to build on a solid start.

[M_B]

8 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

My own point regarding the squad being decimated was with regards to comparing TM's last squad to JDT's first.  Clearly now it's a stronger squad than on day one, though arguably still weaker than last season.  I think that's unarguable. 

Clearly the first 10 games were coloured by a lack of options & being forced to give debuts to teenagers & play men out of position. Despite that, we got 5 wins (+ 2 cup wins), which I think is a very solid return in context, and more than comparable to what Kompany or Beale have achieved, for example.

Now we have a fixed squad for 3 months, the next portions of games pre- and post-world cup are about getting them to gel, developing plans a, b and c, whilst also planning for the January window to bring in ripe & ready players that can slot neatly into the squad & give us the chance to better cope with inevitable injuries & suspensions & have a strong finish to the season. 

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me, and we're in decent shape to build on a solid start.

I think we're in a good place, a good platform from which Tomasson can work from and hopefully improve. 

I just never subscribed to the theory that the squad he inherited was as weak as was made out. 

Yes we lost the fun boy 3,and the loan players, but the rest were just fluff  used to try to prove a point.

Any new manager would want at least half a dozen of his own players anyway, whether he thinks they're fit or good enough to displace the players already here is up to him. 

 

[LDRover]

36 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

 Clearly now it's a stronger squad than on day one, though arguably still weaker than last season.  I think that's unarguable. 

So can we argue about it or not?

[Atko's Engine]

2 minutes ago, LDRover said:

So can we argue about it or not?

Haha, you got me.

I'll leave that one to the mods to decide!

[booth]

Whether the squad is weaker or stronger than last season, we still had a run of games with a defence in tatters and players are just coming back from injury. So for those games we were unequivocally weaker than last season.

[chaddyrovers]

16 hours ago, booth said:

That's why I said right now. If the January transfer window taught us anything it was that we need more goals. We don't have the luxury of waiting for someone to get good, we need as close to the finished article as possible.

I like the idea of bringing in young players and developing them but Hirst should have been signed alongside someone with more experience/goals under his belt at this level. Big risk to rely on BBD's goals.

That last season under a very different head coach. We need to focus on this season and the future this season. 

I don't agree with your viewpoint on Hirst but he is 23 years old and I see a player who lack match fitness and need to understand how we want to play. He can finish from what I seen watching clips and makes some good runs. 

I would start him in the Millwall game up front. 

14 hours ago, Hasta said:

if we aren’t going to change formation after 70 minutes of that shite when are we going to change formation?  Therefore, why put him on the bench?

 

 

Firstly, you see how the game goes before making a formation change or bring Dack on. Clearly JDT didn't think Dack was the right player for that game situation or could impact the game. 

Just for the record, I wouldn't start Dack in the next game either but he would be on the bench

6 hours ago, Gav said:

Tomasson could have all manor of reasons to not be playing the players to mention M_B and I know for sure he wouldn't want to be relying on the likes of Philips and Wharton if he didn't have to.

Last season we clearly lacked quality and numbers when injuries and suspensions hit, we are worse off this season in my opinion and that could lead to a relegation scrap this time around. 

 

Gav, we are 7th in the league after 10 games. We shouldn't be thinking of relegation at all but looking to get into the top 6. I would also say that we have bigger squad right now than we did at this point last season. 

5 hours ago, Gav said:

Plenty of posters, me included, have been saying for 2 seasons now that the squad isn't where it needs to be in terms of quality and numbers, this isn't a reaction to a win against an extremely poor Watford side at all.

We were second last season after the January transfer window closed before Mowbray blew our chances of the playoffs by not being quick enough to switch formation and go back 4-2-3-1. Plus the misused of Ryan Giles who Mowbray thought he could turn into Mahrez. What a clown he really is. 

[joey_big_nose]

On 18/09/2022 at 08:48, M_B said:

A manager with a "decimated" squad doesn't leave out his most expensive signing for two games when fit,and prioritise England u19's over a league match at Luton. 

Let's have it right, the squad is there as shown on Tuesday, he's having to leave supposedly important players out of the squad, never mind the team. 

He's got the players at his disposal, nobody expects miracles and joint 5th is a more than creditable start, but the decimated squad argument needs leaving behind, it's been disproved already. 

I know on BRFCS we love an excursion into language pedantry and one of my peeves is the outrageous misuse of "decimated". It literally means "to reduce by one tenth" as "deci" derived from the Latin for the suggests. It comes from the somewhat harsh ancient Roman legion practice of summarily executing 1 of 10 of their own legionnaires after a particularly humiliating defeat or act of insurrection.

Its often used today to mean "enormous reduction" but it's just wrong to do so. If the argument is we lost 12 players from a say 30 man squad then it's a manifestly insufficient term!

(Apologies, I was going to let it pass but it's been used half a dozen times on this thread incorrectly and I just couldn't stop myself).

[DE.]

It can be used to mean both things technically. One a historic/archaic meaning and the other a more modern understanding of the word. I think most dictionaries will list both definitions. 

[M_B]

57 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

I know on BRFCS we love an excursion into language pedantry and one of my peeves is the outrageous misuse of "decimated". It literally means "to reduce by one tenth" as "deci" derived from the Latin for the suggests. It comes from the somewhat harsh ancient Roman legion practice of summarily executing 1 of 10 of their own legionnaires after a particularly humiliating defeat or act of insurrection.

Its often used today to mean "enormous reduction" but it's just wrong to do so. If the argument is we lost 12 players from a say 30 man squad then it's a manifestly insufficient term!

(Apologies, I was going to let it pass but it's been used half a dozen times on this thread incorrectly and I just couldn't stop myself).

That's actually the second definition given,the first one is kill, destroy or remove a large proportion of,i did check before I quoted Atko. 

I'm sure he was going with the first one,unless he was deliberately meaning to be outrageous. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by M_B

[Sweaty Gussets]

1 hour ago, joey_big_nose said:

I know on BRFCS we love an excursion into language pedantry and one of my peeves is the outrageous misuse of "decimated". It literally means "to reduce by one tenth" as "deci" derived from the Latin for the suggests. It comes from the somewhat harsh ancient Roman legion practice of summarily executing 1 of 10 of their own legionnaires after a particularly humiliating defeat or act of insurrection.

Its often used today to mean "enormous reduction" but it's just wrong to do so. If the argument is we lost 12 players from a say 30 man squad then it's a manifestly insufficient term!

(Apologies, I was going to let it pass but it's been used half a dozen times on this thread incorrectly and I just couldn't stop myself).

It hasn't though. You're using the historical meaning, not the current use of the word. 

However, our squad wasn't decimated. We lost 5 first teamers and a few who couldn't even make the match day squad. Those numbers happen every summer to almost every club in the league. 

[des]

For me we needed to play 3 5  2 that means of midfield is not over run and can both defend and attack. Playing three up front at the expense of our midfield is for me not the way to go 

[Atko's Engine]

2 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

I know on BRFCS we love an excursion into language pedantry and one of my peeves is the outrageous misuse of "decimated". It literally means "to reduce by one tenth" as "deci" derived from the Latin for the suggests. It comes from the somewhat harsh ancient Roman legion practice of summarily executing 1 of 10 of their own legionnaires after a particularly humiliating defeat or act of insurrection.

Its often used today to mean "enormous reduction" but it's just wrong to do so. If the argument is we lost 12 players from a say 30 man squad then it's a manifestly insufficient term!

(Apologies, I was going to let it pass but it's been used half a dozen times on this thread incorrectly and I just couldn't stop myself).

I have stuck that in my pipe & am smoking it humbly as I type.

Every day's a school day!