v Millwall (h) 01/10/2022

[Miller11]

Delighted with the points, particularly considering how badly we played. The first half was particularly dreadful. We have to be one of the luckiest teams about in terms of not being punished for kamikaze play in our own box. How we’ve never really been punished for it in the last couple of years I don’t know, but we were extremely fortunate not to gift them an early lead. The Dutch, or should it be Danish disease needs eradicating.

Starting to see some patterns with JDT now. He clearly loves Hedges (who has been good on the whole this season) and is happy to accommodate him by playing him out of position. I watched the warm up down at the front of the Riverside today and Dack looked really sulky, and I expect he was at full time too after his 5 minute cameo. JDT clearly doesn’t fancy him for whatever reason. 

I don’t think anyone shone today. Gallagher grafted but his touch is abysmal. I like how he stayed on his feet for our first, but his ball in was dreadful and the goal was very fortunate. Very surprised not to see Brittain. Pickering is very limited but did ok again today. Most of the rest underwhelmed. I can’t see us getting away with playing that badly and taking maximum points many times this season. The sooner we transition Adam Wharton into the side on a regular basis the better.

[Ghost7]

I thought it was an appalling win today. If there's such a thing this was it! Two fairly fortunate goals and a disjointed team in front of a very steady defence, all the attackers seemed to have different ideas and were largely ineffective as a group at going forward. There was no intensity after going 2-0 up and we didn't control the ball or the game after being gifted a flattering lead. 

Surprised and a bit disappointed to hear Tomasson was happy with that performance.

From what I witnessed it seemed like we fumbled into another victory and the win loss win loss scenario seems the most likely outcome if we are going to continue relying on luck?

We could have easily conceded more or gone down to 10 men today trying to atone for unnecessary passes and overplaying in vulnerable areas. I thought we were also fortunate not to give away a penalty.

Some players aren't good enough for the system and I think we'll see a few sold in January. Brereton needs to stay on his feet more, Dolan needs to look up, Gallagher needs to keep it closer to him, Kaminski needs to remember how to kick and Hedges... is player of the season so far.

[jim mk2]

32 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

 We have to be one of the luckiest teams about in terms of not being punished for kamikaze play in our own box. How we’ve never really been punished for it in the last couple of years I don’t know,

We have, many times, not least since Tomasson took over. Luton's two goals in the last match came directly from our defenders playing around with the ball at the back

[Miker]

5 hours ago, simongarnerisgod said:

szmodics did ok,he was always looking for the ball and willing to get p and down the flank,not sure about hirst,it may be lack of match fitness but it looks like the championship is a bit much for him

Hirst showed some improvement later in the half but he looked like he had no idea what to do when he first came on. Didn’t make sense to bring both Szmodics and Hirst on when we were finally looking on top. They’re 2 new players still gelling with the squad and it completely destroyed our rhythm. Dack and Buckley were better options especially with the crowd singing their names.

I wouldn’t have had a problem if JDT brought on one of Hirst or Szmodics on but putting both on was dumb and nearly cost us the game.

[Oldgregg86]

7 hours ago, Mercer said:

 

 

 

@chaddyroversif Morton and Wharton are very different types of midfielders then they must have different skill sets otherwise they would be the same!  Therefore, I asked you what you thought their strengths were - would love to read your thoughts especially as you seem to prefer Morton.

Yes, you are mistaken in that I have taken in a handful of Rovers' games this season both home and away plus those matches that have been on Sky.

I also asked you which of Buckley, Morton and Wharton would be the most sought after if Rovers were able to put all three up for sale (for argument's sake, assume Morton is our player).  Surprised your response is 'no idea'.  To me it's as blatantly obvious as to who you would take on a dinner date - Liz Truss or Beyonce! - perhaps you'd prefer Liz Truss!?

I’d take truss

aslong as we could nip in the roverstore on the way 

[rigger]

13 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

He was at Ewood Park training with the 18 players pre game, and he was 19 man in the squad in case anyone got injury in the warm ups. Phillips was given the weekend off to spend with his family 

If someone gets injured in the warm-ups, then they are not doing them correctly.

[tomphil]

Got to accept that Millwall come just to frustrate and focus on stopping any game plan first and foremost so that contributed to the shockingly poor aspect.

His subs for the sake of it though are making Mowbrays seem sensible. I'm constantly stuck with JDTs system wondering which way it's going to pan out. Are we going to click and get a bit more fluid and balanced or are teams going to start benefiting from the fannying about at the back, disjointed team selections are risky subs.

But we keep winning every other game and picking up 3 points so maybe he has a midas touch in there somewhere.

[rigger]

I don't see the advantage of the center-halves passing the ball square to the keeper in their own box, from dead ball situations. 

[BankEnd Rover]

8 hours ago, Darwen Rover 007 said:

Think Smodic had a touch of Bellamy about him for about 20 seconds today.. hoping he can show more of this! 

Yes. He seems to have Neat touch and looks comfortable on the ball. Not sure he would have the quality or pace that Bellamy did taking on players but I see your point.

[Atko's Engine]

Again I think there are a lot of OTT downbeat observations on here, which started with the lineup. I agree it wasn't a great game but in keeping with experience it was never likely to be (first game after international break, Millwall playing with a low block were always happy to take a point, es evidenced by their asst manager 's comments afterwards). But ratings wise all 11 starters scored 6s & 7s on here, which isn't disastrous. 

JDT said in the week that Brittain was fit, but not quite match fit. Arguably he ought not to have been on the bench, but that still leaves the question of who replaced him. Carter was the obvious answer but we went with Hedges, somewhat surprisingly but who was close to MoM so not too shabby. 

Morton was wasteful at times, but did play the ball over the top for Gally for the first.

Dolan was composed with his finish & a pest throughout. He gets unwarranted criticism on here for me, people forget he's only 20 & far from a finished product. 

BBD had a poor game overall by his recent standards but still scored what proved to be the winner. His 1-touch round the corner flicks didn't come off today, but on other days they do & we look a lot more dangerous. 

Gally's 1st game in what, 6 weeks? Looked rusty but his effort was top and his charge forward for the first goal was a game changer. Yes the cross wasn't the best but at least it drew a mistake from their defence which Dolan profited from.

When we moved the ball quicker, like we did 2nd half, we looked good. Playing it slowly at the back we look vulnerable but that's arguably part of the development process of turning into a one touch team that can beat a high press.

As for team selection, we have 2 games a week for 6 weeks thereabouts. Injuries, form, illness, suspensions etc will mean everyone in the squad will get selected & get their chance to shine, quad rotation will be v important. I'm sure that will include Dack, Szmodics, Buckley, Markanday etc. somewhere down the line.

Wharton & Phillips are 18 & 17, have just been involved in 3 internationals abroad. It was Wharton's 1st such experience I think. I'm happy for them to be managed gently back into the club, keep them grounded, protect them from burn out & lumping too much pressure on them. I don't want them to end up being the next targets for undeserved criticism for inconsistent performances

In short I think JDT can justify his selections and 6th place backs that up. Not one of us would have rejected that if given the choice in the summer. It's not perfect but look at the Championship table for context too see how mad this league is. Just yesterday Sheff Utd failed to beat Brum, W Brom lost at home to Swansea, Boro at Coventry.  Our problems, under a new manager & coaching team having lost 5 first teamers for nothing, could be a lot, lot worse!

[M_B]

Looks like the love in for Tomasson has all but disappeared, it didn't take long. Doesn't sound like there are many who still want him to read them a bed time story. 

The bloke's been here 2 minutes, he needs time to do whatever he feels he needs to do. It's just as well we're 6th in the table(joint 4th), we've already had boos at half time yesterday. I can only imagine the stick if we were near the bottom. 

We won playing badly and moved joint 4th in the table, it's a nice message for him to pass on to the players. Let's hope for a better performance but the same result on Tuesday. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 minute ago, M_B said:

Looks like the love in for Tomasson has all but disappeared, it didn't take long. Doesn't sound like there are many who still want him to read them a bed time story. 

The bloke's been here 2 minutes, he needs time to do whatever he feels he needs to do. It's just as well we're 6th in the table(joint 4th), we've already had boos at half time yesterday. I can only imagine the stick if we were near the bottom. 

We won playing badly and moved joint 4th in the table, it's a nice message for him to pass on to the players. Let's hope for a better performance but the same result on Tuesday. 

I wouldn’t say that. I think we’re still getting to know each other. Having said that it’s a bit puzzling that having identified the “ Dutch Disease “ as a way of playing to be avoided he appears to have adopted it.

[Colt Seavers]

32 minutes ago, rigger said:

I don't see the advantage of the center-halves passing the ball square to the keeper in their own box, from dead ball situations. 

Agreed. Kaminski has the option to pick a long ball from a goal kick in a controlled environment where he can select which area to target, whilst under no pressure. Instead he plays it short, we panic and he gets a dangerous back pass, so then resorts to  punting  the now moving ball upfield, under pressure from a striker.

How can that be the preferred option, and why do we keep doing it?

[Atko's Engine]

7 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I wouldn’t say that. I think we’re still getting to know each other. Having said that it’s a bit puzzling that having identified the “ Dutch Disease “ as a way of playing to be avoided he appears to have adopted it.

It takes time though to grow to be more incisive & build up confidence. The Dutch Disease refers to passing for passing's sake, the theory being if we have the ball, the oppo won't score, but then not developing further into passing with precision, at speed & progressively up the pitch using 1 & 2 touches.

It's clear JDT wants to take us beyond the possession only game into a more fluid, progressive style of 1/2 touch flowing style. We've seen it at times this season (Swansea leaps to mind). That process will be bumpy, we were warned about that from his arrival, so I don't see what folk are complaining about whilst seeing us sitting in 6th place! 

There's no patience in football amongst most fans, who seem to think we should be a finished product 12 games in. It's not JDT's fault what he inherited, give him time to stamp his ideas on a young team in a situation where he's barely had a fully fit squad to choose from!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

It takes time though to grow to be more incisive & build up confidence. The Dutch Disease refers to passing for passing's sake, the theory being if we have the ball, the oppo won't score, but then not developing further into passing with precision, at speed & progressively up the pitch using 1 & 2 touches.

It's clear JDT wants to take us beyond the possession only game into a more fluid, progressive style of 1/2 touch flowing style. We've seen it at times this season (Swansea leaps to mind). That process will be bumpy, we were warned about that from his arrival, so I don't see what folk are complaining about whilst seeing us sitting in 6th place! 

There's no patience in football amongst most fans, who seem to think we should be a finished product 12 games in. It's not JDT's fault what he inherited, give him time to stamp his ideas on a young team in a situation where he's barely had a fully fit squad to choose from!

I’d be surprised if any team gets out of this division playing “ City “ style possession football. To do that you need “ City “ standard players. Most defenders at this level aren’t good enough on the ball to be error free in possession.

[tomphil]

I think we had over 60% possession stats in the first half but were dire and barely registered a shot or corner, neither did they but they weren't looking for it.  More even from the start of the second and we were a bit better so it's the same old story the less possession based game suits us more.

Have a go, concede a bit more possession, score first, win.

Possession won't translate into goals when most of it is between keeper and defenders.

[Hasta]

17 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

It takes time though to grow to be more incisive & build up confidence. The Dutch Disease refers to passing for passing's sake, the theory being if we have the ball, the oppo won't score, but then not developing further into passing with precision, at speed & progressively up the pitch using 1 & 2 touches.

It's clear JDT wants to take us beyond the possession only game into a more fluid, progressive style of 1/2 touch flowing style. We've seen it at times this season (Swansea leaps to mind). That process will be bumpy, we were warned about that from his arrival, so I don't see what folk are complaining about whilst seeing us sitting in 6th place! 

There's no patience in football amongst most fans, who seem to think we should be a finished product 12 games in. It's not JDT's fault what he inherited, give him time to stamp his ideas on a young team in a situation where he's barely had a fully fit squad to choose from!

In general you can't complain with 6 wins and 6th place at the start of October.

However its not the general style of football and possessional play that bothers me. If we want to knock it across a back line for a bit to try and find an opening that's fine. Its pretty dull to watch and if the game is going against us it will be highlighted, but if it helps us control games and thus get more points great. If that's how he wants to play then great, although Buckley and Dack suit possession play more than Gallagher ever will. I'm seeing less and less of the "high press" we thought he would instill.

However Kaminsky passing to his centre halves or midfielders when they are stood 12 yards from goal and under pressure is incredibly high risk with little reward. It's cost us goals already at Luton and should have cost us yesterday. The players we had yesterday are simply not good enough footballers to receive the ball and pass out in that situation. You say "It takes time though to grow to be more incisive & build up confidence", but it doesn't matter how long JDT works at it Ayala, Travis, Hyam, Pickering and Wharton are not going to be able to regularly receive the ball 8 yards from our goal-line and play it through the opposition lines to get us attacking the front foot. 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Hasta

[Atko's Engine]

7 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I’d be surprised if any team gets out of this division playing “ City “ style possession football. To do that you need “ City “ standard players. Most defenders at this level aren’t good enough on the ball to be error free in possession.

Not strictly true because our opposition also isn't the standard that City will face, but I take your point & agree we need to mix it up a bit. There were some heart stopping examples yesterday of when not to overplay!

IMO, things are going better than we had a right to expect overall and that anyone who expected us to be the finished article of what JDT wants us to be by this stage had over-inflated expectations & didn't listen to what GB & JDT clearly set out as their aim on their arrival.

[rovers11]

I'm very concerned about the performance levels but JDT is getting good results. I'm sure we'd all have taken 6 wins and 6th place at this point. I was expecting a bottom 6 start given all the changes over the summer. 

I was reading quotes from Gregg B in the LT this morning saying that he's focused on performance levels and high performance levels will generally lead to good results in the long term. I agree with that to a certain extent and I also think poor performances will lead to poor results in the medium-long term which is why I think the jury is very much still out on the manager. 

I still think that we don't have the quality in attacking positions to play the way JDT wants. The likes of Gally, Dolan, Hirst are not technically gifted and will constantly give the ball away if you ask them to play possession football. 

I do really like our back 3 though. I think it's up there with the best in the division. Hyam is top class at this level. 

[Atko's Engine]

12 minutes ago, Hasta said:

In general you can't complain with 6 wins and 6th place at the start of October.

However its not the general style of football and possessional play that bothers me. If we want to knock it across a back line for a bit to try and find an opening that's fine. Its pretty dull to watch and if the game is going against us it will be highlighted, but if it helps us control games and thus get more points great. If that's how he wants to play then great, although Buckley and Dack suit possession play more than Gallagher ever will. I'm seeing less and less of the "high press" we thought he would instill.

However Kaminsky passing to his centre halves or midfielders when they are stood 12 yards from goal and under pressure is incredibly high risk with little reward. It's cost us goals already at Luton and should have cost us yesterday. The players we had yesterday are simply not good enough footballers to receive the ball and pass out in that situation. You say "It takes time though to grow to be more incisive & build up confidence", but it doesn't matter how long JDT works at it Ayala, Travis, Hyam, Pickering and Wharton are not going to be able to regularly receive the ball 8 yards from our goal-line and play it through the opposition lines to get us attacking the front foot. 

 

As I said above there's a time and a place for it, and the players don't always select the right moments. There will be bumps in the road to where we want to get to, isn't that what we were told to expect? Here we are, bumping along in 6th place, 5 points off top!

JDT has had two thirds of a transfer window to get to know his squad, identify upgrades & mould a winning team. In that time he's also had to manage us through 13 games (W8 L5) half of which were before the window shut & when we had a mini defensive injury crisis. I just don't see how folk can be disappointed that we're not rolling teams over 3 or 4 nil every week!

And isn't it the job of a head coach & his team to improve their players, as well as find a system & style that suits them? Ayala I agree is probably too old to improve much, but S Wharton, Kaminski, Pickering & Travis are all young enough to improve on that front (I take the view Hyam & Brittain are already there).  Add to that the growth & further first team integration of Morton, Phillips & A Wharton, more coming through the youth team, & suitable acquisitions in future transfer windows & it can only improve.

Whilst improving, they should be encouraged to practise what they're learning in training in a match situation. That will mean errors of judgment are made (some costly, some not) but that's part of the learning process & overall it should lead to a better long term outcome if implemented correctly.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

29 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

Not strictly true because our opposition also isn't the standard that City will face, but I take your point & agree we need to mix it up a bit. There were some heart stopping examples yesterday of when not to overplay!

IMO, things are going better than we had a right to expect overall and that anyone who expected us to be the finished article of what JDT wants us to be by this stage had over-inflated expectations & didn't listen to what GB & JDT clearly set out as their aim on their arrival.

You don’t have to be a brilliant footballer to be effective at pressing the ball. To play “ City “ style football you need much higher levels of skill. In a sentence “ It’s much easier to destroy than create “,

[rovers11]

4 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

As I said above there's a time and a place for it, and the players don't always select the right moments. There will be bumps in the road to where we want to get to, isn't that what we were told to expect? Here we are, bumping along in 6th place, 5 points off top!

JDT has had two thirds of a transfer window to get to know his squad, identify upgrades & mould a winning team. In that time he's also had to manage us through 13 games (W8 L5) half of which were before the window shut & when we had a mini defensive injury crisis. I just don't see how folk can be disappointed that we're not rolling teams over 3 or 4 nil every week!

And isn't it the job of a head coach & his team to improve their players, as well as find a system & style that suits them? Ayala I agree is probably too old to improve much, but S Wharton, Kaminski, Pickering & Travis are all young enough to improve on that front (I take the view Hyam & Brittain are already there).  Add to that the growth & further first team integration of Morton, Phillips & A Wharton, more coming through the youth team, & suitable acquisitions in future transfer windows & it can only improve.

Whilst improving, they should be encouraged to practise what they're learning in training in a match situation. That will mean errors of judgment are made (some costly, some not) but that's part of the learning process & overall it should lead to a better long term outcome if implemented correctly.

There's a lot to be positive about. Promotion back to the Premier league was always going to built on us bringing through high quality players from the academy and I feel we're on the brink of having a crop of young players who can take us there. Probably not this season but we have the nucleus of a good young squad that are being tied up on long term contracts. 

I genuinely feel for the first time in 10 years we actually have a plan to get back to the promised land. 

[lraC]

Thank goodness for the points. I will take a poor performance and a win any time, over a good one and a defeat. We were poor and can hardly say as fans that it was an enjoyable match.

Hope we can turn in a similar display to the Blackpool game, on Tuesday and I think we need to give Adam Wharton his head, as he should have either held on to the shirt, or at least made the bench, after the Blackpool game. Maybe the Bristol City defeat cost him his place, but others were worse in that match.

[Atko's Engine]

13 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You don’t have to be a brilliant footballer to be effective at pressing the ball. To play “ City “ style football you need much higher levels of skill. In a sentence “ It’s much easier to destroy than create “,

I agree to a point, but in the PL you'll see better organisation, hunting in packs, better fitness / pace & greater intensity than you do in the Championship. It's the same principle as you allude to, of the quality improving as you go up the divisions.

[rigger]

2 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

Again I think there are a lot of OTT downbeat observations on here, which started with the lineup. I agree it wasn't a great game but in keeping with experience it was never likely to be (first game after international break, Millwall playing with a low block were always happy to take a point, es evidenced by their asst manager 's comments afterwards). But ratings wise all 11 starters scored 6s & 7s on here, which isn't disastrous. 

JDT said in the week that Brittain was fit, but not quite match fit. Arguably he ought not to have been on the bench, but that still leaves the question of who replaced him. Carter was the obvious answer but we went with Hedges, somewhat surprisingly but who was close to MoM so not too shabby. 

Morton was wasteful at times, but did play the ball over the top for Gally for the first.

Dolan was composed with his finish & a pest throughout. He gets unwarranted criticism on here for me, people forget he's only 20 & far from a finished product. 

BBD had a poor game overall by his recent standards but still scored what proved to be the winner. His 1-touch round the corner flicks didn't come off today, but on other days they do & we look a lot more dangerous. 

Gally's 1st game in what, 6 weeks? Looked rusty but his effort was top and his charge forward for the first goal was a game changer. Yes the cross wasn't the best but at least it drew a mistake from their defence which Dolan profited from.

When we moved the ball quicker, like we did 2nd half, we looked good. Playing it slowly at the back we look vulnerable but that's arguably part of the development process of turning into a one touch team that can beat a high press.

As for team selection, we have 2 games a week for 6 weeks thereabouts. Injuries, form, illness, suspensions etc will mean everyone in the squad will get selected & get their chance to shine, quad rotation will be v important. I'm sure that will include Dack, Szmodics, Buckley, Markanday etc. somewhere down the line.

Wharton & Phillips are 18 & 17, have just been involved in 3 internationals abroad. It was Wharton's 1st such experience I think. I'm happy for them to be managed gently back into the club, keep them grounded, protect them from burn out & lumping too much pressure on them. I don't want them to end up being the next targets for undeserved criticism for inconsistent performances

In short I think JDT can justify his selections and 6th place backs that up. Not one of us would have rejected that if given the choice in the summer. It's not perfect but look at the Championship table for context too see how mad this league is. Just yesterday Sheff Utd failed to beat Brum, W Brom lost at home to Swansea, Boro at Coventry.  Our problems, under a new manager & coaching team having lost 5 first teamers for nothing, could be a lot, lot worse!

If you think that performance was acceptable, your standards are a lot lower than mine. Personally I think , if any player on the pitch yesterday, from either side, reached a level of average, then I missed it.