World Cup 2022

[ben_the_beast]

England's record in major tournaments under Southgate.

WC 2018 Wins: Tunisia, Panama, Colombia (Pens), Sweden. 

Losses: Belgium x2, Croatia 

Euro 2020 Wins: Croatia, Czech, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark

Drew and lost to Scotland and Italy. 

 

In all of that bunch I'd say our squad is significantly better than all opposing teams rather than Croatia and Germany. Possibly Denmark. 

In the losses we've been ahead and Southgate hasn't changed the set up until we've conceded or gone behind. Like some I'm not even saying unleash all the attacking talent we have. But simple adjustments to out set up, specifically when we're outnumbered in the middle. When it's our 2 battlers vs 3 opposition players we constantly lose any kind of stranglehold in a game. 

That and doing away with favoritism. Sterling and Mount for example seem guaranteed of a place regardless of performance. With the talent in the squad. It doesn't even need a handbrake being let off. Just play our most in form and talented players.

My point being. His record is to be commended. You can only beat what is in front of you. However we've repeatedly failed in sterner tests. When you see the same mistakes being ignored (USA dominating us in the middle of the pitch and again... favoritism) it's only right that his credentials are questioned. 

Just to give an analogy to another national team. Would anyone say Belgium have achieved what they have over the last 6 years in spite of Martinez or because of him? I think most would agree he's failed to squeeze the extra 10% out of a world class squad and they've always fallen just short, with him being the weak link. 

England have huge talent in the squad. Failures of old lead us to thinking reaching the latter stages of tournaments is a huge achievement. It should be an expectation. 

[K-Hod]

I felt that the subs changed the game in the Spain and Germany match. Both strikers scoring and the young Spanish left back that replaced Alba, the goal came down his side. (Not saying it was all his fault, but it looked like Musiala got the wrong side of him and the German sub striker was able to wriggle away into space…)

[Mike E]

Re: England, I feel like we need to stick a back 4 to accommodate more attacking players.

But I do think it's now worth going with TAA whom I've previously stated would only be good in a back 5.

I'd go with:

Pickford

TAA  Stones  Maguire  Shaw

        Rice  Bellingham

    Saka  Foden  Grealish

                 Kane

On 60 or so, bring on Rashford and Sterling in place of Kane and one of the other attackers to put pace against tired legs. I'd also being on Phillips at some point.

[Admiral Nelsen]

45 minutes ago, ben_the_beast said:

England's record in major tournaments under Southgate.

WC 2018 Wins: Tunisia, Panama, Colombia (Pens), Sweden. 

Losses: Belgium x2, Croatia 

Euro 2020 Wins: Croatia, Czech, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark

Drew and lost to Scotland and Italy. 

 

In all of that bunch I'd say our squad is significantly better than all opposing teams rather than Croatia and Germany. Possibly Denmark. 

In the losses we've been ahead and Southgate hasn't changed the set up until we've conceded or gone behind. Like some I'm not even saying unleash all the attacking talent we have. But simple adjustments to out set up, specifically when we're outnumbered in the middle. When it's our 2 battlers vs 3 opposition players we constantly lose any kind of stranglehold in a game. 

That and doing away with favoritism. Sterling and Mount for example seem guaranteed of a place regardless of performance. With the talent in the squad. It doesn't even need a handbrake being let off. Just play our most in form and talented players.

My point being. His record is to be commended. You can only beat what is in front of you. However we've repeatedly failed in sterner tests. When you see the same mistakes being ignored (USA dominating us in the middle of the pitch and again... favoritism) it's only right that his credentials are questioned. 

Just to give an analogy to another national team. Would anyone say Belgium have achieved what they have over the last 6 years in spite of Martinez or because of him? I think most would agree he's failed to squeeze the extra 10% out of a world class squad and they've always fallen just short, with him being the weak link. 

England have huge talent in the squad. Failures of old lead us to thinking reaching the latter stages of tournaments is a huge achievement. It should be an expectation. 

 

Very close to my view. I really like the off the pitch stuff that Southgate has done to change the feeling around England. He seems to deal with the players very well, says the right things, etc.

But - and it's a massive but - there's very little evidence that he has the tactical nous to get the most out of the talented squad available to him, or that he can react when things start going against us.

His record in tournaments is far more chequered than some admit. We lost three games in 2018, and were taken to pens by Colombia. Flat track bullies in one of the most fortunate runs to a WC semi that you will ever see. He deserves more credit for 2020, but there too I really believe a different manager makes us more likely to beat Italy before pens. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Admiral Nelsen

[ben_the_beast]

13 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

Very close to my view. I really like the off the pitch stuff that Southgate has done to change the feeling around England. He seems to deal with the players very well, says the right things, etc.

But - and it's a massive but - there's very little evidence that he has the tactical nous to get the most out of the talented squad available to him, or that he can react when things start going against us.

His record in tournaments is far more chequered than some admit. We lost three games in 2018, and we're taken to pens by Colombia. Flat track bullies in one of the most fortunate runs to a WC semi that you will ever see. He deserves more credit for 2020, but there too I really believe a different manager makes us more likely to beat Italy before pens. 

Agree. The thing I like most about Southgate is the way he's not only handled himself off the pitch, but the way he's handled his players off the pitch too. He's made the England team likable. The represent good values. Prior to him supporting England felt like a chore, not only because of performances but also because the players were a difficult bunch to get behind. I do feel like they now represent the country. For that I'm very thankful. Tactically though. He's lacking. 

[matt83]

He’s a very lucky manager.

He’s managing a crop of exiting young players who seem to want to play for their country. Which hasn’t always been the case for other managers.

No other England manager at a World Cup has managed to avoid any top draw opposition in the knockout phase and still fail to get to a final.

He’s not had to put up with talented players who hated each others guts and frankly couldn’t give a toss about the national side like Eriksson had during the so called golden generation era.

He’s not had injuries to the best player(s) like had over the years with Rooney, Beckham, etc.

He’s largely escaped press scrutiny which is unique in my lifetime.

Can’t knock a major semi final and a major final it technically makes him Englands 2nd most “successful” manager but I really think it’s been a case of doing well in spite of him and most importantly luck. 

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, Ianrally said:

Well I suppose that if you are st a World Cup finals, anything other than winning is a failure, you are there with the sole objective is to win, but I get your point.

Thing is I agree but the realist in us knows that "there can be only one", we just want it to be us.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The German goal was very Sheareresque.

[roverandout]

10 minutes ago, matt83 said:

He’s a very lucky manager.

He’s managing a crop of exiting young players who seem to want to play for their country. Which hasn’t always been the case for other managers.

No other England manager at a World Cup has managed to avoid any top draw opposition in the knockout phase and still fail to get to a final.

He’s not had to put up with talented players who hated each others guts and frankly couldn’t give a toss about the national side like Eriksson had during the so called golden generation era.

He’s not had injuries to the best player(s) like had over the years with Rooney, Beckham, etc.

He’s largely escaped press scrutiny which is unique in my lifetime.

Can’t knock a major semi final and a major final it technically makes him Englands 2nd most “successful” manager but I really think it’s been a case of doing well in spite of him and most importantly luck. 

Agree with everything u said except it really grates on me when people say we have had a lucky draw. Who did France play on their way to the last World Cup? An under performing Belgium an old aged Uruguay. 

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, Ianrally said:

Two quotes from Sir Alf Ramsay prior to the 1966 World Cup

“We will win the World Cup”

“We have still to produce our best, and this is not possible until we meet the right sort of opponents, and that is a team that comes out to play football and not act as animals.”

Thats how to motivate a team Gareth, coming from the full back partner of our own Bill Eckersley. 

A star was Sir Alf, loved it when he called the Argies animals and stopped shirt swapping at the end of that game.

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, roverandout said:

Agree with everything u said except it really grates on me when people say we have had a lucky draw. Who did France play on their way to the last World Cup? An under performing Belgium an old aged Uruguay. 

I think you struggle to look past your bias with England. Colombia and Denmark missing their main players as well as Sweden and Ukraine are not teams in knock out international football that you would be sad to draw. They are not the cream of the crop like you seemingly have us as.

France not only overcame Argentina but also Belgium when they were a serious proposition (and beat us) and also the same Croatia team that beat us.

[matt83]

8 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Agree with everything u said except it really grates on me when people say we have had a lucky draw. Who did France play on their way to the last World Cup? An under performing Belgium an old aged Uruguay. 

I’d still say it was very lucky to get those teams in a World Cup knock out stage. France beat Argentina (tough ask), an Uruguay team who beat the hosts 3-0 and Portugal, a Belgium side who beat us twice and Brazil, then routed Croatia. I’d say we’d have probably lost against every team France played in the knockouts with the possible exception of Uruguay

[joey_big_nose]

Based on the evidence so far very hard to look beyond either France or Brazil. No one else looks competitive really. Thought Spain might be contenders but for all their midfield quality lack a cutting edge or strong enough at the back. Belgium, Germany, Portugal, Netherlands and Argentina all disappointing.

[47er]

41 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

A star was Sir Alf, loved it when he called the Argies animals and stopped shirt swapping at the end of that game.

I was at that game. Good motivational stuff from Sir Alf, the Argentinians weren't really as bad as legend has it!!

 

[AllRoverAsia]

11 minutes ago, 47er said:

I was at that game. Good motivational stuff from Sir Alf, the Argentinians weren't really as bad as legend has it!!

 

The sent off Rattin requesting an interpreter because he doesn't understand what he's being told and spends a full 11 minutes in protest, six of them spent refusing point-blank to leave the pitch.

I was just 14 but remember that incident clearly and how tall and composed Rattin looked during the mayhem he caused.

Naturally he went on to be a far right politician.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

8 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

The sent off Rattin requesting an interpreter because he doesn't understand what he's being told and spends a full 11 minutes in protest, six of them spent refusing point-blank to leave the pitch.

I was just 14 but remember that incident clearly and how tall and composed Rattin looked during the mayhem he caused.

Naturally he went on to be a far right politician.

They had some really good players in that Argentina team. It took all we had to beat them even when they went down to ten. It got a bit lively at times.

[Admiral Nelsen]

43 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Based on the evidence so far very hard to look beyond either France or Brazil. No one else looks competitive really. Thought Spain might be contenders but for all their midfield quality lack a cutting edge or strong enough at the back. Belgium, Germany, Portugal, Netherlands and Argentina all disappointing.

 

Agree that those two are the ones with 'unblotted' copy books so far.

I still think the the tournament is wide open though. No team stands out to the degree that Spain did around 10 years ago, for instance. Or even France last time for that matter. 

Randomness and taking your chances are seriously underrated factors in knockout football, so I'd still give all the teams you mention a better than fighting chance (possibly not Belgium after today). 

[47er]

51 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

The sent off Rattin requesting an interpreter because he doesn't understand what he's being told and spends a full 11 minutes in protest, six of them spent refusing point-blank to leave the pitch.

I was just 14 but remember that incident clearly and how tall and composed Rattin looked during the mayhem he caused.

Naturally he went on to be a far right politician.

All great theatre for the mass media. That bit was like something from professional wrestling and Rattin became public enemy No 1 (for a few weeks!). We thought it was hilarious at the time.

 

[jim mk2]

Rattin was the perfect anti hero for the jingoistic English press. He was their idea of the archetypal Latin American 1960s footballer - crafty in the dark arts, dirty and a cheat. He was also an excellent player. I never thought we’d lose to Argentina but the semifinal against Portugal was probably the most nerve racking game I’ve ever seen. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

9 hours ago, matt83 said:

He’s a very lucky manager.

He’s managing a crop of exiting young players who seem to want to play for their country. Which hasn’t always been the case for other managers.

No other England manager at a World Cup has managed to avoid any top draw opposition in the knockout phase and still fail to get to a final.

He’s not had to put up with talented players who hated each others guts and frankly couldn’t give a toss about the national side like Eriksson had during the so called golden generation era.

He’s not had injuries to the best player(s) like had over the years with Rooney, Beckham, etc.

He’s largely escaped press scrutiny which is unique in my lifetime.

Can’t knock a major semi final and a major final it technically makes him Englands 2nd most “successful” manager but I really think it’s been a case of doing well in spite of him and most importantly luck. 

Do you really believe that there won't have been press scrutiny of Southgate ? The reason you haven't read anything is because unlike some of his predecessors he hasn't behaved in a way which would generate scandals.

The attitude of the players and the squad unity under his management is down to Southgate's skillful management and nothing to do with "luck".

[jim mk2]

There’s been plenty of scrutiny and criticism of Southgate in the better newspapers. He got some stick for his tactics in the Euros final and the criticism really ratcheted up after the Nations league debacle. All the doubts about him resurfaced after the US game too. Southgate has been good for England but you get the feeling he’s too cautious and tactically limited to take us all the way 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

He’s a very lucky boy to be in that job. As far as I can see the FA wanted somebody who “ wouldn’t frighten the horses “ and that what you get with Southgate. A nice bloke no doubt but a very, very limited manager. If by some massive fluke he was appointed at Rovers I’d be less than happy.

[jim mk2]

They've always gone for the soft option - Taylor, Hoddle, McClaren, Keegan, Hodgson, "English" and decent chaps but none of them had the qualities to be a successful national manager. They went down the foreign route with Eriksson who did well to drag England out of the depths of the Keegan debacle and they threw money at the problem in the case of Capello (£6m a year to fund his art collection) but none of them have worked. Venables was good but was too controversial for the FA blazers. Bobby Robson was a good England manager and the best since Ramsey and was unlucky at Italia 90

England is a poisoned chalice - ridiculously high expectations when the team and the coach usually just haven't been good enough. Southgate was right when he said a few days ago that we have an arrogance about our place in football that isn't backed up by reality 

Edited November 28, 2022 by jim mk2

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, jim mk2 said:

They've always gone for the soft option - Taylor, Hoddle, McClaren, Keegan, none of them had the qualities to be a national manager. They went down the foreign route with Eriksson who did well to drag England out of the depths of the McClaren debacle and they threw money at the problem in the case of Capello (£6m a year to fund his art collection) but none of them have worked. Venables was good but was too controversial for the FA blazers. Bobby Robson was a good England manager and the best since Ramsey and was unlucky at Italia 90

England is a poisoned chalice - ridiculously high expectations when the team and the coach usually just haven't been good enough. Southgate was right when he said a few days ago that we have an arrogance about our place in football that isn't backed up by reality 

Robson had a good record for the most part (1988 Euros were a disaster and we failed to qualify in 1984) but definitely benefited from having the assistance of Don Howe who was an outstanding organiser.

[oldjamfan1]

11 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 Bobby Robson was a good England manager and the best since Ramsey and was unlucky at Italia 90

He was. I would argue that he was even more unlucky in 1986.