World Cup 2022

[chaddyrovers]

delighted Morocco won that game. 

[arbitro]

19 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

Awful penalties from Spain. Who decided that walking up to take a penalty makes it easier to score? 

Having said that if Morocco's 21 could shoot they'd have lost too. 

This penalty taking style which is in vogue at the moment is bloody infuriating. It makes the player look good when he scores but missing makes them look stupid. The Spain manager said his team have taken a thousand penalties in training to avoid a penalty shoot out defeat. That worked out well.

[chaddyrovers]

48 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You are correct in that you can only play the teams you are drawn against, hence why there is an element of luck in the draw that doesn't exist in a league format. We have had very fortunate draws in the last 2 tournaments but we have got a really tough draw this time around.

I don't see how we were fortunate in the last 2 tournaments with the draw? The draw is the draw, England just get on and keep delivering every time under Southgate. Didn't we beat a very good German team full of quality players and Denmark who has some very good players playing some of the best league s in Euro? 

[Darrenbot]

21 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I don't see how we were fortunate in the last 2 tournaments with the draw? The draw is the draw, England just get on and keep delivering every time under Southgate. Didn't we beat a very good German team full of quality players and Denmark who has some very good players playing some of the best league s in Euro? 

The German team has failed to get out of the group stages for the last 2 world cups,i'd hardly call them a team full of quality players,they don't come close to some of the German teams from the past.

[roversfan99]

45 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You said they were a similar level, 'half decent' with a few good players. Not that they are better. The rest of the usual caveats you put in aren't needed. At the end of the day Senegal are the best team in Africa and have players from all over the top leagues in Europe, and playing regularly. Even the Championship player you say they rely on is wanted by top clubs in Europe.

How have we had 'very fortunate' runs? In WC 2018 we knocked out a very good Colombia side which featured the likes of Cuadrado, Falcao, Mina, Lerma.

In Euro 2020 we knocked out Germany, who featured Haverts, Kroos, Goretzka, Kimmich, Neur, Muller, Werner.

We then beat an exceptionally organised Denmark side in another professional tournament knockout game

And you see, it is due to those little caveats in your posts that I will only quote this part. I'm not here to point out the rights and wrongs of posters but, in contrast to your view on roverandout, your posts of "praise" are often littered with caveats that aren't true. Or, as you have picked out Foden's comments about his team mate becoming the best midfielder in the world - why can you take issue with that particular comment but roverandout not take issue with other comments about other nations' players?

Anyway, I don't agree with your evaluation of England being fortunate in the teams we've played to date / in other tournament runs and actually think the opinion that other teams do not want to play us is right. We are on a great run in knockout football and any little caveat you can try and place to knock that form down is irrelevant because our form in consecutive major tournaments tells me this is more than "luck" and "injuries" to other teams. And that will remain regardless of the result vs France.

The best team in Africa for sure, but African teams have not done well on the world stage in recent history.

My comments about Foden referring to Bellingham becoming the best midfielder in the world have been taken out of context. Roverandout has been repeatedly suggesting that pundits put England down and big up other big players to the point where seemingly he struggles to watch other teams without feeling sick. I used that along with some of the other bits not because I don't agree with it, but as recent evidence that we do big up our own, and that we do praise our own players.

Regarding the draws, I stand by my comments. Obviously you aren't going to face minnows in knockout football at major tournaments, but in the last 2 tournaments we have faced draws that relative to what other teams we could have had, that had you offered such a path at the start of the tournament, that you would accept. Germany has always been the exception and I have always said as such and praised accordingly, in spite of their general recent tournament experience. Colombia especially without Rodriguez were tricky opposition but not close to being elite, Mina has never settled in England, Falcao was 32, Cuadrado etc, nothing special. Then came Sweden, you take them in a quarter final any day. Then Croatia who outclassed us. In 2020, Germany were the exception, see above. Then came Ukraine ie the weakest of the quarter finalists, before Denmark minus Eriksen, the weakest of the other 3 semi finalists, still we beat them which is all you can do, dodgy penalty or no dodgy penalty.

You still have to beat these teams and Southgate deserves praise for doing so, but there are still big question marks over whether he can overcome the very elite in knockout tournament football. We have yet to face France, we avoided peak Belgium aside from in dead rubbers, we avoided Spain, Brazil and Argentina, and we couldn't overcome Italy and Croatia, indeed I felt that Southgate really struggled to manage early leads. Hopefully Saturday evening can be a coming of age.

25 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I don't see how we were fortunate in the last 2 tournaments with the draw? The draw is the draw, England just get on and keep delivering every time under Southgate. Didn't we beat a very good German team full of quality players and Denmark who has some very good players playing some of the best league s in Euro? 

The draw is the draw, yes. In my and many others opinions, we have been fortunate with it in the last 2 tournaments.

[Darrenbot]

Ronaldo left out of the Portugal team,coach not happy with his reaction to being subbed in the last game.Messi and Ronaldo having wildly different world cups so far,saying that wouldn't be surprised to see him come on later in the game and score the winner for them. 

[Dreams of 1995]

49 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

Our route to the final was underrated. If we played  Ukraine --> Denmark --> Germany it would have been a tricky draw. The order we did it in looks easy but at the end of the day it's the same three teams we have to beat but it can be dismissed because Denmark is an "easy semi"

Of course. And people show themselves to be very close minded in this kind of discussion 

In 2018 we beat a Sweden side which topped their group, which included “big team” Germany. 
 

I’d say in both of them tournaments the only game you’d consider fortunate was Ukraine. And that is because of the new rule of 3rd placed teams having the chance to qualify

[K-Hod]

23 minutes ago, Darrenbot said:

The German team has failed to get out of the group stages for the last 2 world cups,i'd hardly call them a team full of quality players,they don't come close to some of the German teams from the past.

They’ve definitely under achieved since they won the WC in any case.

[DE.]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

This penalty taking style which is in vogue at the moment is bloody infuriating. It makes the player look good when he scores but missing makes them look stupid. The Spain manager said his team have taken a thousand penalties in training to avoid a penalty shoot out defeat. That worked out well.

The one thing you simply can't train for is the pressure and the intensity in that moment. It's something that can only be experienced, not coached or trained for. The mentality  of the individual player is key in that situation. 

23 minutes ago, Darrenbot said:

Ronaldo left out of the Portugal team,coach not happy with his reaction to being subbed in the last game.Messi and Ronaldo having wildly different world cups so far,saying that wouldn't be surprised to see him come on later in the game and score the winner for them. 

He's obviously struggling to come to terms with the fact he isn't indispensible anymore and can't behave however he wants and get away with it just because he's CR7. A humbling lesson for him, but not one I'm convinced he'll learn much from.

[Dreams of 1995]

34 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The best team in Africa for sure, but African teams have not done well on the world stage in recent history.

My comments about Foden referring to Bellingham becoming the best midfielder in the world have been taken out of context. Roverandout has been repeatedly suggesting that pundits put England down and big up other big players to the point where seemingly he struggles to watch other teams without feeling sick. I used that along with some of the other bits not because I don't agree with it, but as recent evidence that we do big up our own, and that we do praise our own players.

Regarding the draws, I stand by my comments. Obviously you aren't going to face minnows in knockout football at major tournaments, but in the last 2 tournaments we have faced draws that relative to what other teams we could have had, that had you offered such a path at the start of the tournament, that you would accept. Germany has always been the exception and I have always said as such and praised accordingly, in spite of their general recent tournament experience. Colombia especially without Rodriguez were tricky opposition but not close to being elite, Mina has never settled in England, Falcao was 32, Cuadrado etc, nothing special. Then came Sweden, you take them in a quarter final any day. Then Croatia who outclassed us. In 2020, Germany were the exception, see above. Then came Ukraine ie the weakest of the quarter finalists, before Denmark minus Eriksen, the weakest of the other 3 semi finalists, still we beat them which is all you can do, dodgy penalty or no dodgy penalty.

You still have to beat these teams and Southgate deserves praise for doing so, but there are still big question marks over whether he can overcome the very elite in knockout tournament football. We have yet to face France, we avoided peak Belgium aside from in dead rubbers, we avoided Spain, Brazil and Argentina, and we couldn't overcome Italy and Croatia, indeed I felt that Southgate really struggled to manage early leads. Hopefully Saturday evening can be a coming of age.

And yet in this tournament they are. Morocco have just knocked out Spain and Senegal made it to the knockout rounds. I don't quite get what this comment means to be honest. Why does that have any bearing on how good they are now, except of course to try and paint them out to be an easier opposition than they actually are.

The reality is this: when we thumped Iran you said they were poor because their players didn't play in the big leagues. Now we thumped Senegal they are "missing their talisman", "missing their key midfielder" or "African teams have not done well on the world stage"

However, when Brazil thump South Korea they are "showing what they are all about". No mention of course that teams from the Asian continent have not gone to the knock outs since 2010. Or that almost none of the South Korean players play in the big leagues. Or that Son is unfit.

There is every reason under the sun why England's performances aren't worth of true credit but the same is not afforded elsewhere. But there ya are criticising roverandout for not wanting genuine discussion!!!

And you can stand by them but they aren't based on reality. Colombia were World Cup quarter finalists in 2014 and Copa America semi finalists in 2021 (losing to eventual winners Argentina). They were a good side in those years.

Croatia were exceptionally good during that World Cup, with a midfield of Rakitic and Modric. When you look at the team we had to have even gotten to a semi-final was an incredible achievement. We had a midfield of Henderson, Alli and Lingard. Only 1 of those still plays regular football at a top team. Neither are comparable in any way to Rice and Bellingham, who Hendo now has to help him out. The whole world could see that's what lost us that game but Southgate has to pick what players he has and neither Rice or Bellingham were ready then. What is not lost by regular watchers of England is that you don't seem to mention Ali's painkilling injections; or Sterling's thigh injury; or Young's ankle injury. All of whom were required to play v Croatia because the quality in depth we had at that time was not there.

In fact, you don't mention that in our game vs Ukraine we missed starter Mason Mount due to Covid.

And likewise you don't mention that we beat Senegal without Southgate's preferred Sterling.

We can all list what makes teams weaker, but the truth is that we are beating teams put in front of us and scoring more than others doing it.

Brazil have played Switzerland, Cameroon, Serbia and SK - scored 7 goals.

We have played Iran, Wales, USA and Senegal - scored 12 goals.

Both have a similar win or loss- but we are fortunate whilst Brazil have shown us what they are all about

The bias against England is there for all to see I'm afraid!

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Dreams of 1995

[Mattyblue]

In a few weeks time CR7 will most likely have played his last ever international and European club game as he takes that final payday in Saudi.

His behaviour over the past month or so will have brought about a very ignominious end to a top class career…

Edited December 6, 2022 by Mattyblue

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I don't see how we were fortunate in the last 2 tournaments with the draw? The draw is the draw,

The lottery draw is the draw too. But you have to be fortunate to get the right draw for it. Undoubtedly you can get lucky with the draw, and we have been lately, but not this time.

[speeeeeeedie]

13 minutes ago, Darrenbot said:

The German team has failed to get out of the group stages for the last 2 world cups,i'd hardly call them a team full of quality players,they don't come close to some of the German teams from the past.

Germany's starting 11 against Costa Rica play for; Bayern, Bayern, Bayern, Real Madrid, RB Leipzig, Bayern, Man City, Bayern, Bayern, Bayern, Bayern.

They have quality players, they just aren't clicking. I think Jogi Low stayed on for too long (a bit like Wenger at Arsenal) and now the system is in need of a reboot.

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

And yet in this tournament they are. Morocco have just knocked out Spain and Senegal made it to the knockout rounds. I don't quite get what this comment means to be honest. Why does that have any bearing on how good they are now, except of course to try and paint them out to be an easier opposition than they actually are.

The reality is this: when we thumped Iran you said they were poor because their players didn't play in the big leagues. Now we thumped Senegal they are "missing their talisman", "missing their key midfielder" or "African teams have not done well on the world stage"

However, when Brazil thump South Korea they are "showing what they are all about". No mention of course that teams from the Asian continent have not gone to the knock outs since 2010. Or that almost none of the South Korean players play in the big leagues. Or that Son is unfit.

There is every reason under the sun why England's performances aren't worth of true credit but the same is not afforded elsewhere. But there ya are criticising roverandout for not wanting genuine discussion!!!

And you can stand by them but they aren't based on reality. Colombia were World Cup quarter finalists in 2014 and Copa America semi finalists in 2021 (losing to eventual winners Argentina). They were a good side in those years.

Croatia were exceptionally good during that World Cup, with a midfield of Rakitic and Modric. When you look at the team we had to have even gotten to a semi-final was an incredible achievement. We had a midfield of Henderson, Alli and Lingard. Only 1 of those still plays regular football at a top level. Neither are comparable in any way to Rice and Bellingham, who Hendo now has to help him out. The whole world could see that's what lost us that game but Southgate has to pick what players he has and neither Rice or Bellingham were ready then. What is not lost by regular watchers of England is that you don't seem to mention Ali's painkilling injections; or Sterling's thigh injury; or Young's ankle injury. All of whom were required to play v Croatia because the quality in depth we had at that time was not there.

In fact, you don't mention that in our game vs Ukraine we missed starter Mason Mount due to Covid.

And likewise you don't mention that we beat Senegal with Southgate's preferred Sterling.

We can all list what makes teams weaker, but the truth is that we are beating teams put in front of us and scoring more than others doing it.

Brazil have played Switzerland, Cameroon, Serbia and SK - scored 7 goals.

We have played Iran, Wales, USA and Senegal - scored 12 goals.

Both have a similar win or loss- but we are fortunate whilst Brazil have shown us what they are all about

The bias against England is there for all to see I'm afraid!

 

 

My point has not been that we haven't played some very capable sides in the knockout stages of these tournaments. I also described the way that we have dealt with the 3 the teams we have comfortably beaten as "impressive" and praised the team after all 3 games. I have also praised individuals including Foden, Bellingham and Saka who I think are all top talents.

You keep taking my comments out of context, I really enjoyed watching Brazil last night and some of the football on show was superb. I saw no need to even bring England into it and it was roverandout that again felt the need to do so. My comments about us being fortunate (in terms of the draw) related to previous tournaments, I revert you back to my first paragraph about what I think of us so far in this tournament. The problem is that people cannot seem to discuss other teams positively or negatively without it having to come back to England. I haven't compared England unfavourably to anyone in this World Cup thus far.

I stand by the assertion that in previous tournaments, we have avoided the very elite teams with the very elite players in the most part. Those England teams were inferior as you touch on, but equally we avoided France, we avoided Brazil and Argentina in the World Cup, Portugal with Ronaldo, Spain, teams like Colombia, Denmark and Sweden obviously were very capable but not on the same level.

[roversfan99]

Portugal are a good watch tonight, Joao Felix in particular is really standing out and Ramos is giving them energy in behind.

[Herbie6590]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I don't see how we were fortunate in the last 2 tournaments with the draw? The draw is the draw, England just get on and keep delivering every time under Southgate. Didn't we beat a very good German team full of quality players and Denmark who has some very good players playing some of the best league s in Euro? 

Let's look at the degree of difficulty of those runs...

2018 World Cup - Fifa rankings at the time

R16 we beat 16th ranked team (par)but only on penalties

QF we beat a side ranked 24th (fortunate draw for last eight)         

SF we lost to a side ranked 20th (fortunate draw for last 4)

We also lost twice to a side ranked 3rd.

 

We only beat (in 90 minutes) sides o/s the World top 20. 

 

 

2021 Euros - Fifa rankings at the time

R16 beat team ranked 12th (8th in Europe) - good result

QF beat team ranked 24th (16th in Europe - fortunate draw for last eight)

SF beat team ranked 10th (7th in Europe - fortunate)

Final - lost to 7th ranked team (6th in Europe)

 

We lost to a side ranked a QF, albeit on penalties.

[Dreams of 1995]

2 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

Let's look at the degree of difficulty of those runs...

2018 World Cup - Fifa rankings at the time

R16 we beat 16th ranked team (par)but only on penalties

QF we beat a side ranked 24th (fortunate draw for last 😎

SF we lost to a side ranked 20th (fortunate draw for last 4)

We also lost twice to a side ranked 3rd.

 

We only beat (in 90 minutes) sides o/s the World top 20. 

 

 

2021 Euros - Fifa rankings at the time

R16 beat team ranked 12th (th in Europe) - good result

QF beat team ranked 24th (fortunate draw for last 😎

SF beat team ranked 10th (7th in Europe - fortunate)

Final - lost to 7th ranked team (6th in Europe)

 

We lost to a side ranked a QF, albeit on penalties.

But going on rankings is a nonsense Herbie

Italy beat Spain and Belgium on their way to the final. If I remember correctly Belgium were ranked #1 at that time. Does that make them the best team?

Right now Denmark are ranked the 10th in the World but didn't win a game

I look around at what them teams were doing at the time and Croatia, Denmark, Sweden and Colombia were all beating the teams around them, except us

Iran are now the 20th in the world - are we saying they are a better side than Japan (24th)?

I take the rankings with a pinch of salt, purely how long Belgium spent as #1 without ever winning a major trophy

[DE.]

28 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

Germany's starting 11 against Costa Rica play for; Bayern, Bayern, Bayern, Real Madrid, RB Leipzig, Bayern, Man City, Bayern, Bayern, Bayern, Bayern.

They have quality players, they just aren't clicking. I think Jogi Low stayed on for too long (a bit like Wenger at Arsenal) and now the system is in need of a reboot.

Eh, I maintain they were just a bit unlucky in this tournament. A freak opening result (Argentina had a worse opening game result and still qualified), a credible 1-1 draw with Spain and they ended up beating Costa Rica comfortably after a brief scare. Had it not been for Costa Rica not turning up for their first match of the tournament it could easily have been Spain going out instead. Nobody would have anticipated Japan beating both Spain and Germany. It was a bizarre set of circumstances that saw them drop out. 

Now granted Germany didn't look great, but then a lot of the bigger nations looked poor in the groups and still qualified. I don't think they looked any worse than Argentina, Spain, Croatia or the Netherlands. Obviously from their perspective hugely disappointing to go out in the group stages for the second WC in a row, but this wasn't the same as their WC 2018 elimination. That was a team struggling at the end of the road, further confirmed in the Euros afterwards. This Germany is a team in transition from a manager that clung on for too long, and imo at least suffered a bit of bad luck in how results played out. 9 times out of 10 Japan don't beat Spain and Germany, nor do Spain beat Costa Rica 7-0. I don't think the German FA will overreact in the same way their media seem to be. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by DE.

[DE.]

Not sure if Portugal are playing really well or Switzerland are just a bit rubbish. Maybe some from column A and some from column B.

[roversfan99]

The rankings are certainly flawed but whilst we played capable opposition, we avoided the real big names in the most part. 

[roversfan99]

Portugal look incredible, Switzerland are gone but they are entertaining and effective in equal measure.

[DE.]

Switzerland one of those teams that are hyped pre-tournament and labelled dark horses, but almost always exit with a whimper fairly early on. This is probably the worst I've seen them in any semi-recent tournament though.

[K-Hod]

7 minutes ago, DE. said:

Not sure if Portugal are playing really well or Switzerland are just a bit rubbish. Maybe some from column A and some from column B.

I think Switzerland haven’t shown up, but Portugal have played some cracking stuff here. Of course Switzerland have only just bagged, but they’ve otherwise been very poor. It all seems to have clicked for Portugal tonight!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

And another.

[speeeeeeedie]

13 minutes ago, DE. said:

Eh, I maintain they were just a bit unlucky in this tournament. A freak opening result (Argentina had a worse opening game result and still qualified), a credible 1-1 draw with Spain and they ended up beating Costa Rica comfortably after a brief scare. Had it not been for Costa Rica not turning up for their first match of the tournament it could easily have been Spain going out instead. Nobody would have anticipated Japan beating both Spain and Germany. It was a bizarre set of circumstances that saw them drop out. 

Now granted Germany didn't look great, but then a lot of the bigger nations looked poor in the groups and still qualified. I don't think they looked any worse than Argentina, Spain, Croatia or the Netherlands. Obviously from their perspective hugely disappointing to go out in the group stages for the second WC in a row, but this wasn't the same as their WC 2018 elimination. That was a team struggling at the end of the road, further confirmed in the Euros afterwards. This Germany is a team in transition from a manager that clung on for too long, and imo at least suffered a bit of bad luck in how results played out. 9 times out of 10 Japan don't beat Spain and Germany, nor do Spain beat Costa Rica 7-0. I don't think the German FA will overreact in the same way their media seem to be. 

It reads like you are agreeing with me. They were unlucky. They should have beat Spain too.

My comment was a counterpoint to Darrenbot stating that the German team didn't have quality players. They do have quality players, it's the set up that isn't working. The German mentality isn't there.