v Hull City (a) - 29/10/22

[rigger]

20 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

I haven’t been impressed with any of our stand in right wing backs, so with Hedges and Brittain looking like they are out I’d try another. Either Dolan or Pickering (with Mola coming in on the left).

Whatever happened to Dan Pike?

He told them his name.

[Mike E]

6 hours ago, only2garners said:

I didn’t see Vale in any pre-season games and I didn’t see anything to be excited about in his league games. But I thought in his cameo on Saturday that he did everything right given the game situation. But it’s way too early for me to have a considered long term view.

Completely agree here. He was a great outlet for the midfield, moved the ball wide and up the pitch, and shielded the ball well too.

And a great ball out to the left to give Breo and Dolan a break forward.

[Atko's Engine]

It saddens me a little how quickly some folk are to write players off completely, particularly young forwards.

People are entitled to their opinions of course, but often I feel they're unjustified. Coaching staff & management, who have lived the game all their lives, with not insignificant success in JDT's case & also GB's to a lesser extent, are with these players day in, day out.  They have a wealth of info available to them about those players re fitness, confidence, off-field matters, team dynamics & player relationships (to name a few) in order to take a justified view about who may be good enough & who isn't, as opposed to just 90 minutes or less every week or so. They're not always right of course, but must see talent in all those players that make them worth working with & trying to develop.

It happened with BBD and Gallagher, even alongside of it being also recognised that they were not being played to their strengths, though I think most people now recognise their abilities and value to the squad. Szmodics then went through it, arguably still is, likewise Dolan. Hirst, Vale & Markanday are definitely current recipients, both being dismissed as not good enough by many on what can only be described as scant evidence in terms of first team experience, despite having excellent records elsewhere and / or at lower levels.

We all love the game as a sport, as entertainment, and we all want the best for the club. And like I said, opinions are fine if they can be justified; some are more valid than others, and voicing them on a forum is better than doing so in the ground. But to me many people are way too quick to judge and do so at risk of having to eat humble pie at a later date.

Rant over; I'm going for a 2-0 away win, BBD & Gally to get one each.

 

[Mattyblue]

Got to remember that Vale is nearly 22, BB and SG were much further on in their development by that age, even if they had struggled at times, which is par for the course for young players. Compare with BB being a Nottingham Forest regular at 17 then a big money transfer, or the clubs Gallagher had played at on his loans at a similar age, in comparison to Vale, who scored just 1 goal over three loans at Halifax, Rochdale and Barrow.

Hope he kicks on, but it’s not being ‘negative’ or something that should ‘sadden’ to state that in reality he needs to step up quickly if he wants to make it at this level.

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Sparks Rover]

4 hours ago, Mike E said:

Completely agree here. He was a great outlet for the midfield, moved the ball wide and up the pitch, and shielded the ball well too.

And a great ball out to the left to give Breo and Dolan a break forward.

Sounds like he could play more effectively in a different position.  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Sounds like he could play more effectively in a different position.  

Has always been best as a LWF in the 21's/23's for me, coming in off that side. Same when he's gone out on loan, didn't work out massively for him but I know he was always preferred as a LWF rather than a 9.

[The Mighty Chaffinch]

Regarding Vale, for me, it all comes down to confidence. In the PL2 he knows he can score, his record is great and he must go into every game with that confidence influencing his decisions and overall contribution. For the first team he hasn’t managed to score yet and despite showing some good signs in a few of his cameos, he hasn’t yet got the confidence to look the part. With young strikers in his position a lot comes down to luck and how soon you score your first goal. I remember being at Wigan when Matt Derbyshire scored in one of his early appearances…his celebration said it all; unbridled joy that knocked the confidence levels up to eleven. Dolan achieved something similar a few years back against Wycombe. Vale will hopefully get that first goal soon (he was unlucky not to at Brum on the last day of the season and against Hartlepool this) and then we’ll see what confidence does to a player…just ask BBD! 

[Exiled_Rover]

55 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

It saddens me a little how quickly some folk are to write players off completely, particularly young forwards.

People are entitled to their opinions of course, but often I feel they're unjustified. Coaching staff & management, who have lived the game all their lives, with not insignificant success in JDT's case & also GB's to a lesser extent, are with these players day in, day out.  They have a wealth of info available to them about those players re fitness, confidence, off-field matters, team dynamics & player relationships (to name a few) in order to take a justified view about who may be good enough & who isn't, as opposed to just 90 minutes or less every week or so. They're not always right of course, but must see talent in all those players that make them worth working with & trying to develop.

It happened with BBD and Gallagher, even alongside of it being also recognised that they were not being played to their strengths, though I think most people now recognise their abilities and value to the squad. Szmodics then went through it, arguably still is, likewise Dolan. Hirst, Vale & Markanday are definitely current recipients, both being dismissed as not good enough by many on what can only be described as scant evidence in terms of first team experience, despite having excellent records elsewhere and / or at lower levels.

We all love the game as a sport, as entertainment, and we all want the best for the club. And like I said, opinions are fine if they can be justified; some are more valid than others, and voicing them on a forum is better than doing so in the ground. But to me many people are way too quick to judge and do so at risk of having to eat humble pie at a later date.

Rant over; I'm going for a 2-0 away win, BBD & Gally to get one each.

 

I genuinely think they're just protecting their asset with that new contract - they can't think he's a real option moving forward. 

Vale hasn't looked up to Championship standard in any of his appearances - he's neither quick or strong, getting brushed off the ball incredibly easily. Nor if he a particularly clever player with his movement - I can't comment on his finishing because he's never in the position to take a shot. He's linked up play quite well against Hartlepool and Bradford... but perhaps L2 is his level?

[Sparks Rover]

57 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

I genuinely think they're just protecting their asset with that new contract - they can't think he's a real option moving forward. 

Vale hasn't looked up to Championship standard in any of his appearances - he's neither quick or strong, getting brushed off the ball incredibly easily. Nor if he a particularly clever player with his movement - I can't comment on his finishing because he's never in the position to take a shot. He's linked up play quite well against Hartlepool and Bradford... but perhaps L2 is his level?

Another one who needs to perform out on loan.  He's not scored any goals in his loans according to wiki (obviously could  be wrong), needs to consistently hit the net to prove himself.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Sparks Rover

[47er]

I've learned my lesson from Brereton.

I'm not confident in writing off any young player now, however poor he looks to be.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

I've learned my lesson from Brereton.

I'm not confident in writing off any young player now, however poor he looks to be.

Brererton was a once in a lifetime occurrence.

[Leonard Venkhater]

3 hours ago, 47er said:

I've learned my lesson from Brereton.

I'm not confident in writing off any young player now, however poor he looks to be.

Haha. Me too..

But...Let's have it straight...He did look clueless and shit. Lol

[47er]

4 minutes ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Haha. Me too..

But...Let's have it straight...He did look clueless and shit. Lol

He did, he really did! 

Edited October 26, 2022 by 47er

[Admiral Nelsen]

12 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

It saddens me a little how quickly some folk are to write players off completely, particularly young forwards.

People are entitled to their opinions of course, but often I feel they're unjustified. Coaching staff & management, who have lived the game all their lives, with not insignificant success in JDT's case & also GB's to a lesser extent, are with these players day in, day out.  They have a wealth of info available to them about those players re fitness, confidence, off-field matters, team dynamics & player relationships (to name a few) in order to take a justified view about who may be good enough & who isn't, as opposed to just 90 minutes or less every week or so. They're not always right of course, but must see talent in all those players that make them worth working with & trying to develop.

It happened with BBD and Gallagher, even alongside of it being also recognised that they were not being played to their strengths, though I think most people now recognise their abilities and value to the squad. Szmodics then went through it, arguably still is, likewise Dolan. Hirst, Vale & Markanday are definitely current recipients, both being dismissed as not good enough by many on what can only be described as scant evidence in terms of first team experience, despite having excellent records elsewhere and / or at lower levels.

We all love the game as a sport, as entertainment, and we all want the best for the club. And like I said, opinions are fine if they can be justified; some are more valid than others, and voicing them on a forum is better than doing so in the ground. But to me many people are way too quick to judge and do so at risk of having to eat humble pie at a later date.

Rant over; I'm going for a 2-0 away win, BBD & Gally to get one each.

 

 

I think a lot of this is fair, especially in terms of some of the other players you mention copping for too much, too early. 

About Vale specifically though, it's also fair to point out that he has shown very little in his first team appearances so far, and so a three year contract extension was always going to raise a few eyebrows. He'll be 25 by the time this one expires, so it's significant in terms of length, even if he doesn't get a particularly big pay rise. 

You're still right of course that this shouldn't mean we write him off.

[Cuppliance]

20 minutes ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Haha. Me too..

But...Let's have it straight...He did look clueless and shit. Lol

There were times where I was wondering if he was even a professional football player. Tripping over the ball etc. Personally, I saw the improvement during lockdown when he was playing in empty stadiums. Didn't have the Rovers fans putting the pressure on him at home and he gained his confidence back.

[roversfan99]

37 minutes ago, Cuppliance said:

There were times where I was wondering if he was even a professional football player. Tripping over the ball etc. Personally, I saw the improvement during lockdown when he was playing in empty stadiums. Didn't have the Rovers fans putting the pressure on him at home and he gained his confidence back.

Was that ever happening? I don't remember that.

[K-Hod]

1 hour ago, Cuppliance said:

There were times where I was wondering if he was even a professional football player. Tripping over the ball etc. Personally, I saw the improvement during lockdown when he was playing in empty stadiums. Didn't have the Rovers fans putting the pressure on him at home and he gained his confidence back.

I’m convinced there’s no club like ours where fans are determined to blame others, even at the expense of reality.

The overwhelming majority of fans in the ground went over the top with their support of BBD as they could see he needed encouragement. A few grumbles at mistakes don’t equate to ‘putting pressure on him at home’.

[Leonard Venkhater]

1 hour ago, Cuppliance said:

There were times where I was wondering if he was even a professional football player. Tripping over the ball etc. Personally, I saw the improvement during lockdown when he was playing in empty stadiums. Didn't have the Rovers fans putting the pressure on him at home and he gained his confidence back.

Actually, contrary to the myth, I thought Rovers fans were remarkably tolerant.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Cuppliance said:

There were times where I was wondering if he was even a professional football player. Tripping over the ball etc. Personally, I saw the improvement during lockdown when he was playing in empty stadiums. Didn't have the Rovers fans putting the pressure on him at home and he gained his confidence back.

Breretons improvements were as much down to him getting his strength up as anything else. Alongside being used more by the manager instead of ten mins here and there often when the team was struggling.

That happened to coincide with games in lockdown as well.

[lraC]

21 hours ago, Waggy76 said:

Thats very true but Simon Garner  initially scored a few goals.....Then lost is way and then came back  towards the end of the promotion year ..ie Chesterfield away ..

Absolutely and I am not suggesting for one minute the same will happen with Vale, but we need to have a bit of patience and give him a chance. So far, we have seen plenty come through the system and perform well in the first team. hopefully we have another, as I love nothing more than seeing these young lads make it.

[JPTSwindon]

I think Vale deserves to be in the mix, yes (much) more to be done, but there have been flashes in the U23s and Welsh U21s.

Right-back option for Saturday, Travis as cover, allowing Wharton and Garrett to remain in a 3 man midfield and Carter to remain in the heart of defence (he deserves to start, not be cover).

Exciting times - away win, just - as usual.

[Mattyblue]

The fans will ‘give him a chance’. Rovers’ match going fans are a patient bunch. But if a handful of folk on here say he’s no good, so what? 

But in reality it’s JDT that needs to keep giving him chances, and as he’s showing, if you don’t step up, you don’t play - see JRC and Edun for examples of that.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Mattyblue

[booth]

30 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Breretons improvements were as much down to him getting his strength up as anything else. Alongside being used more by the manager instead of ten mins here and there often when the team was struggling.

That happened to coincide with games in lockdown as well.

I don't think Mowbray helped. Signed him for a lot of money then didn't play him. The lad must have had major mixed signals.

[rigger]

We are lucky that at the moment there is not a massive rush for Vale to be up to speed. The Rovers are not depending on Vale, so he can be brought on, at a reasonable pace.

[Northcote blues]

Hirst is so much better than Vale. That’s saying something. At least Hirst is fast and I think anyway, has shown some neat touches/control.