v The Dingles (a) - 13/11/2022

[superniko]

3 minutes ago, Paul Mellelieu said:

So we are doing than expected?

Well done on completely glazing over the post. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

32 minutes ago, Paul Mellelieu said:

I think some of our fans need to man up a bit too.  Sounding like teenagers when their fav pop band splits up.

We could have done with the players manning up a bit yesterday.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

8 hours ago, booth said:

Never forget that Burnley history teachers are the most bitter history teachers 😉

 

I think that is totally unfair...at least Burnley's Trophy Cabinet has a nice bit of dust inside it👌

[sympatheticclaret]

2 hours ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

I think that is totally unfair...at least Burnley's Trophy Cabinet has a nice bit of dust inside it👌

Enough said .....

[RoversTilliDie]

17 hours ago, Crozzy said:

Sorry but I’m still not over yesterday. I’ve watched plenty of away games this season: Sheff utd, Luton, Wigan, Cardiff etc and we’ve done the same fucking thing, pass across our own box while under pressure, make mistakes and then concede. We do this slow fucking boring build up play which gets to midfield and then it comes straight back every time!! There’s NO press whatsoever. Every away game I watch I think to myself ‘surely we’ll no do that again this week’ (we went direct against boro and look what happened, we actually fucking won) anyways, convinced myself today we would be more direct (knowing they are vulnerable that way) we’d press and be in their faces, and be up for the game.
What the fuck was I thinking, only a lunatic would expect JDT to change the way we play away from home for the biggest game of the season after getting slapped away from home repeatedly when playing that way. What an idiot I am. 
 

Yes we’ve won some good games and played well and the passing out from the back works at Ewood (so far, with hairy moments still) but what are we doing still doing it every away game when we’ve been beaten by shit teams like Wigan and Cardiff who’ve been really struggling when we’ve played them. 
 

I could forgive JDT for us taking the game to them and us getting pumped 3-0 because we had a fucking go but Jesus Christ, we set up like we were playing Man City away.  
 

Lastly I’ll say we need someone who can keep the ball in midfield with their back to goal, can  buy a foul of can hold it up because it’s like a game of tennis when it comes out for the back at snails pace. Good job we have a player who can hold it up sat on the bench tho, who also while am at it (allegedly) can’t do the press that JDT wants, because that press has been evident time and time again. 
 

Can get over all the defeats this season but that set up from the team he put out, tactics and lack of fight and desire, also lack of changing things when we went one down and carried on passing around the back till we twice found a claret and blue shirt is unforgivable. If it was every going to change it would have been yesterday so I think we’ll carry on getting beat away from home passing it around like dickheads for a while to come. 

Jury 100% still out for me on JDT especially with his lack of giving a fuck about that performance and swerving questions in the interview. He’s not arsed what yesterday meant to us and he’s proven it 
 

 

Something JDT needs to put right on the training ground, trying to pass your way out of your own penalty box like your Brazil in the World cup. On most occasions its back in the opponents possession and sometimes in the back of the net. A big hefty boot upfield takes the pressure off the defence. I would also like to see Kaminski (who is a fantastic keeper) kick the ball in the opponents half more, rather than rolling it out and pissing about at the back.

[RoversTilliDie]

Let's not forget were not Brazil yet, mostly a young squad who can only learn from mistakes, we have the basis of a team challenging for things in a Season or two. Providing the team stay together.

[Displaced Rover]

The amount of people just accepting Sunday's performance (both on here and social media more widely) is bizarre.

I don't care we're a young team, I don't care it's the start of a "project", I don't care that people didn't expect us to be third at this point.

I strongly care about the total lack of effort, the tactical naivety and the apparent complete disregard for the fact this was a game against our fiercest rivals.

Standards at this club have fallen a long way if getting pumped 3-0 by Burnley is being justified....

[47er]

17 minutes ago, RoversTilliDie said:

Let's not forget were not Brazil yet, mostly a young squad who can only learn from mistakes, we have the basis of a team challenging for things in a Season or two. Providing the team stay together.

Let's not forget the Burnley game either eh? It wasn't the squad who made the mistakes that cost us, it was the man who picked it.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

55 minutes ago, 47er said:

Let's not forget the Burnley game either eh? It wasn't the squad who made the mistakes that cost us, it was the man who picked it.

Not for the first time this season  team selection has cost us.

[Boz]

Ok I am nearly ready to consider Sunday's events to comment rationally.

Headline is that JDT has used up one of his lifelines. Yet happy to move on and gloss over the mismanagement on this occasion, project, bigger picture, ok, ok. 

Team selection - Mola & Garrett, error of judgement starting them both, possibly brave you could argue, though a resulting failure. There will be consequences, with again some players left out being scarred, which will impact on contracts, renewals and loyalty. Mola quite possibly a talented 21 year old played through every age group of the England ranks, yet not our player and only limited appearances to date for us and playing in the Championship and in any derby game like that.  Leaving out a local 25 year old, with vast more experience, along with a track record of performing. Garrett not the right game to give him the necessary further experience for his development, might easily be a knock back for him, especially with whatever role he was asked to play.

Scouting & planning - we hear that inordinate levels of these occur in the modern game and within our new set up, this is something which they place a high value upon. Well did anyone watch Sunday's opponents previous match? Now I am not saying we have the same fire power of Sheff United to exploit Burnley's obvious weaknesses, yet surely we might have considered and planned for attacking via set pieces; free kicks, long throws in attacking areas and corners, to threaten them, including a system which might look to obtain such set pieces. Three corners all the game, was the first one in the second half which failed to beat the first man? 

Inverted wing backs and full backs - if I understand correctly the thinking for inverted defenders is to stop left footed attackers playing on the right wing and right footed attackers playing on the left side. So some bright young data analyst, took a few moments off from playing their FIFA 23, to suggest that Manuel cuts in from the right on his left foot and Zaroury the same but opposite on their left hand side, both being one footed, so let's match up and play our right footed defender on our left, with our left footed defender (more on Hedges at right back later) on our right. Obviously Zaroury's moving the ball onto his left and swinging in a left footed cross which Jason Wilcox would have been proud with, to the middle of the 6 yard box onto Barnes's head, came as a big surprise to our coaching staff. This moment was the game changer, one nil to Burnley, game effectively over, as we have no plan B when we go behind. 

Square pegs in round holes - I had hoped that with ToMo's departure we might have seen the end of this. The players know their best positions and hopefully the management have an idea also. Now a full back is an important and specialist position, primarily to defend and stop dangerous balls played into the penalty area, shepherd them away from the danger area, defend the attackers stronger foot. Is Hedges a full back? Is Hedges a right footed defender who might prevent a left sided left footed cross into our 6 yard box? No on both points I would suggest. Firstly I would have played a recognised full back in their preferred position. Secondly if you really must invert your full backs (which I would not especially if we are playing with three central defenders), they have got to be comfortable to be able to defend from either foot, Brittain did ok against Manuel, yet Hedges did not, not his fault being asked to play a position and formation in which he is not suited. 

Squad size - arguably 32 is too many, besides the financial costs, it surely brings with it other problems, squad harmony, management of too many with various options. All not helped with primarily being a very young squad, they get a sniff of first team football and then have expectations. In their short career as professional footballers a balance has to be struck, for themselves both financially personally, though also success or otherwise. Keeping so many happy, involved, motivated, committed is no doubt challenging and with the obvious short comings in the team, there will have to be some movement to get the missing experience and dynamic players playing JDT's ideology. 

Away form & ball retention style - this surely must be addressed, we cannot continue with the madness of gifting possession in our danger zone. Combined with some truly shockingly poor away performances to date. We need a plan B if we do not score first, we will/have got found out with our style of play.

In summary I sympathise somewhat with the players being asked to play either out of their favoured positions, or in a formation they might not be fully used to, or novice young lads lacking the experience of such a match (btw why don't you take one of our brightest prospects along with you to a game to gain some experience rather than leave Adam at home?), combined with an obvious lack of planning in a match which the supporters feel strongly about.

So no the players are not effing shit as the dingles whispered to them as they trudged off at full time, unless their chant was directed to our manager and coaches, who on Sunday were guilty as charged. Learn this lesson and do not repeat. 

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, Displaced Rover said:

The amount of people just accepting Sunday's performance (both on here and social media more widely) is bizarre.

I don't care we're a young team, I don't care it's the start of a "project", I don't care that people didn't expect us to be third at this point.

I strongly care about the total lack of effort, the tactical naivety and the apparent complete disregard for the fact this was a game against our fiercest rivals.

Standards at this club have fallen a long way if getting pumped 3-0 by Burnley is being justified....

The amount of people throwing their toys out of the pram over a football game is bizarre 

Did you sleep though the last decade? Burnley have established themselves as a PL club, meanwhile Ewood Park is desperate for a coat of paint.

They've completely eclipsed us financially thanks to the Venkys.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Exiled_Rover

[roversfan99]

It could be argued that moreso than the playing squad that is now packed full of graduates, some ready, some less so, with a stadium falling apart etc, that the biggest thing that Venkys have stripped down is expectation.

We speak as if being 3rd in a shocking standard of league is us on top of a mountain. 

[Hasta]

7 minutes ago, Exiled_Rover said:

 

Did you sleep though the last decade? Burnley have established themselves as a PL club, meanwhile Ewood Park is desperate for a coat of paint.

They've completely eclipsed us financially thanks to the Venkys.

So why have every other club who they have played this season managed to carry more of an attacking threat than we did?

How have Luton, Blackpool, Hull, Preston, Cardiff and Stoke managed to not only put up a half-decent showing and take points off them if nobody an compete with them because of money?

Why did we carry on with the same build-from-the back tactics at 1-0 after it had massively failed for the first 60 minutes?

Edited November 15, 2022 by Hasta

[Cuppliance]

It was interesting what the pundits said after the game. They said the teams who were more direct like Birmingham and Cardiff were the ones that have caused Burnley the most trouble. Just makes you think that if the team was set up to be more direct, we may have actually stood a chance. Thing is, we defend for 90 mins and lose 3-0. Would have been better to lose 3-0 after giving it a go. At least if we did that, they wouldn't have got in their stride as much and may have even had some chances ourselves.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Right, it has taken until Tuesday to get my head straight.

It is simple, everytime we've played away and a home team has applied a high press and been able to out muscle midfield we've got beat. 

Ive said it before but Ayala playing means our defence plays at least 10 yards too deep, meaning midfield gets stretched and our forwards get isolated.

So long as Ayala plays we are easy to get at. 

 

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, RoversTilliDie said:

Let's not forget were not Brazil yet, mostly a young squad who can only learn from mistakes, we have the basis of a team challenging for things in a Season or two. Providing the team stay together.

Age is irrelevant when we are talking about the game Tomasson wants us to play. Quite simply too many aren't up to it and it's our managers total denial and insistence that we keep doing it.

[Leonard Venkhater]

2 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Age is irrelevant when we are talking about the game Tomasson wants us to play. Quite simply too many aren't up to it and it's our managers total denial and insistence that we keep doing it.

Yeah...The total denial weasel words are "project" and "this young team"....

[Wheelton Blue]

9 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Age is irrelevant when we are talking about the game Tomasson wants us to play. Quite simply too many aren't up to it and it's our managers total denial and insistence that we keep doing it.

That's the crux of it to me.

He's asking too many players to play in a way in which they aren't suited, or are incapable.

[Miller11]

Just now, Wheelton Blue said:

That's the crux of it to me.

He's asking too many players to play in a way in which they aren't suited, or are incapable.

Starts with Kaminski. He is terrible with the ball at his feet. Brittain looks completely all over the place on the left. All our centre backs are capable defenders but none are great ball players - hardly surprising in Ayala’s case especially… the suggestion of a centre back passing a goal kick to a keeper would’ve been laughed at when his career was starting.

The only player whose strength we play to is Brereton’s. Literally every other player is asked to prioritise things they are crap at.

[bluebruce]

2 hours ago, RoversTilliDie said:

 I would also like to see Kaminski (who is a fantastic keeper) kick the ball in the opponents half more, rather than rolling it out and pissing about at the back.

We tried to have him play like that last season, and he really wasn't very good at it unfortunately.

[Groundhog]

I'm still seething, next level anger, finding it hard to concentrate at work etc, and starting to wonder whether the anger will ever subside, be it this week, month, year whatever. One of the main reasons I'm so angry is I'm still angry after the Wigan and Coventry games, those games did me in...and to see it repeated in that game just knocks it out of you.

The famous Einstein quote "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" comes to mind.

I like Tomasson, I really want him to succeed, regardless of the inconsistency he has lifted my mood this season and got me back loving match days again, if we come back fighting after the WC then fair enough, but I can't see it - I think there is a modern trend for football managers to imprint their own mark/brand on teams above all else as a vanity project, a step on the career ladder. If JDT steps down and changes it now he's almost admitting to himself, the fans, the team that he was wrong and I'm not sure he can do that - we'll keep mining this furrow until he gets sacked (unlikely) or gets lucky and lands a squad that can play his way (highly unlikely).

I think his stance on Dack is example of this. He can't be seen to back down and is using him as an example of the kind of discipline he wants in the squad, "no one is bigger than the team". I appreciate this is just pure speculation. 

I live over the dark side and am surrounded by Burnley fans. I'd got my mind prepped in the build up for a hard fought defeat, getting my little spiel ready for Monday morning, but nothing could prepare me for the fact we lost in the same manner as those recent poor away games. They're loving how poor we were on Sunday, it adds to it. There's an extra smugness to them lot now which is hard to stomach, they're rubbing it in from every direction, from our failing ground to our declining fanbase - this coupled with the media love-in for that thug Barnes, and the queue of people round the block waiting to fellate Kompany, it's all getting a bit nauseous. Social media doesn't help, I'm sure back in 2001 we'd have all rubbed it in online too if it had existed, but it just adds that extra dimension that makes it hard to escape from, I remember having a laugh at the game, celebrating with the team, then going home. It seems all the Carrots are looking to outdo each other with superlatives. My one hope is that after some of their antics in the game they've gone too far, but I'm clinging on here...

Sorry just wanted to rant, none of my family understand it (half are Burnley fans anyway), can't talk about it at work, need to let off steam...

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Miller11 said:

Starts with Kaminski. He is terrible with the ball at his feet. Brittain looks completely all over the place on the left. All our centre backs are capable defenders but none are great ball players - hardly surprising in Ayala’s case especially… the suggestion of a centre back passing a goal kick to a keeper would’ve been laughed at when his career was starting.

The only player whose strength we play to is Brereton’s. Literally every other player is asked to prioritise things they are crap at.

Does it even suit Brereton? It often leaves him isolated, he is at his best when we counter quickly.

[Miller11]

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Does it even suit Brereton? It often leaves him isolated, he is at his best when we counter quickly.

Good point. We didn’t even play to his on Sunday.

[Sparks Rover]

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Does it even suit Brereton? It often leaves him isolated, he is at his best when we counter quickly.

You are right.

We made the mistake of trying to match them possession wise instead of giving up possession for a more long game , and playing to BBD strength.   I think you'll find any team who took points off Burnley will have had a possession stat in the 20-30%..

We didn't commit enough fouls either.

[Groundhog]

2 hours ago, Boz said:

In summary I sympathise somewhat with the players being asked to play either out of their favoured positions, or in a formation they might not be fully used to, or novice young lads lacking the experience of such a match (btw why don't you take one of our brightest prospects along with you to a game to gain some experience rather than leave Adam at home?), combined with an obvious lack of planning in a match which the supporters feel strongly about.

So no the players are not effing shit as the dingles whispered to them as they trudged off at full time, unless their chant was directed to our manager and coaches, who on Sunday were guilty as charged. Learn this lesson and do not repeat. 

I can't agree with this more, I can't get angry towards our players to be honest in hindsight, yes of course I'd have liked to have seen more direction and a real leader on the pitch to emerge (Trav) - but we can't suddenly expect Morton to start bullying the Burnley midfield or Ayala to start moving the ball forward out of defense or Hedges to take the ball up the pitch from his full back position and link up with Diaz and threaten their last third can we? 

For me, it's simple: I think they're over-coached. He wants them to move it forward with two - three touches, this seems to take priority over what is actually happening in front of them, when it works, great, but when it doesn't and there's no plan B, no Flitcroft/Sherwood, christ, even Billy McKinlay if you want, no one to override it and drag the team forward. It's like with any job, you get into a rut and repeat things over and over again and find it hard to see the bigger picture. The game has got too professional for a lot of players. But, call me in 2 years when we're a great team in the JDT mould, I don't know...