Appeal to EFL

[Mike E]

53 minutes ago, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

I always think of equal interest is play leading to an assist - i.e. indirect assist. e.g. the cross field ball from JRC to Thomas opened up the Blackpool defence - but the assist would go to Thomas. Both Buckley and Morton play the deep lying midfield player, whereas Wharton played further forward. In no way is it an opinion on any of the players - but stats only tell part of the story - e.g. on our expected goal ration we would be bottom of the table 🙂

Wharton's flick to Dack for the assist to Breo being a great example.

[roverandout]

35 minutes ago, rigger said:

Is that Doctor Who ?

 

Aye Aye captain

General eyesnhower

[ben_the_beast]

In terms of Wharton, we can all see he's a great footballer with massive potential. But it doesn't matter who it is, give it your all and pull your weight in training. That's the baseline you need hit to even be considered for the starting line up. It's not personal. Regarding Wharton it is all based on assumptions that this was the case, but I have no doubt that if he really gets the bit between his teeth in training he'll be back in the fold for the first team in no time, as the talent is clearly there. 

As an example Eric Ten Haag dropped Rashford a month back because he was late for training. He's the star and go too man. You have to have consistent rules that apply to every player. It wasn't personal, Rashford accepted it and came off the bench and scored the winner. Every player in that squad would know exactly what levels were expected. There are no favorites, everyone is the same and it does wonders for creating a proper team spirit, rather than the faux team spirit that Mowbray created where the team were a bunch of nice lads that he liked to take care of.

[RoverCanada]

Grabbing some 'micro' stats from https://www.fotmob.com/teams/8655/stats/blackburn-rovers/players and https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/158/Show/England-Blackburn

I recall the MLS has some sort of 'expected goals from build up' stat that helps value how MF passes help build up attacks, but haven't come across that for the Championship... maybe in the PL...

Obvious caveats to take on how to interpret them, how they're tallied (which can differ between sites...), etc., but picking out some stats for the sake of the argument (click for a slightly larger image! Sorry...):

Edited February 24, 2023 by RoverCanada

[Andy]

2 hours ago, Mellor Rover said:

I thought it was fairly common knowledge that A. Wharton and Tomasson had a bit of an after-training bust up when A. Wharton went home early one day. If it wasn't, then there you go!

Was a rumour that somebody created and it seems to have caught on.

From what I know, I’m pretty confident that it’s bollocks.

Injuries have been the reason why AW hasn’t been in the side, with a small portion of JDT being overprotective of a young talented lad.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Andy said:

Was a rumour that somebody created and it seems to have caught on.

From what I know, I’m pretty confident that it’s bollocks.

Injuries have been the reason why AW hasn’t been in the side, with a small portion of JDT being overprotective of a young talented lad.

It's not bollocks from what I was told, he left the training field early after a 'bad' tackle on him, got changed and went home. 

[Exiled_Rover]

2 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

In terms of Wharton, we can all see he's a great footballer with massive potential. But it doesn't matter who it is, give it your all and pull your weight in training. That's the baseline you need hit to even be considered for the starting line up. It's not personal. Regarding Wharton it is all based on assumptions that this was the case, but I have no doubt that if he really gets the bit between his teeth in training he'll be back in the fold for the first team in no time, as the talent is clearly there. 

As an example Eric Ten Haag dropped Rashford a month back because he was late for training. He's the star and go too man. You have to have consistent rules that apply to every player. It wasn't personal, Rashford accepted it and came off the bench and scored the winner. Every player in that squad would know exactly what levels were expected. There are no favorites, everyone is the same and it does wonders for creating a proper team spirit, rather than the faux team spirit that Mowbray created where the team were a bunch of nice lads that he liked to take care of.

Man United didn't sign Tevez permanently because he was a poor trainer.

Standards matter.

[Lancs Rover]

5 hours ago, wilsdenrover said:

According to the Premier League, Tugay had 14 assists in 233 games. 

As far as I understand it, assisted and expected touchdowns are the origin of these terms. They're imported from American sports. As well as the notion that stats - and more stats - are an intrinsic part of the game. Tugay proves that's not true. Not everything that matters can be measured. He's a classic case.

[Bohinen1983]

Wharton is not in the same league at the moment as O'Brien. He's a top class midfielder. I don't buy these stats people present. They did the same with Rothwell, his driving runs created space all over the pitch. He could break through the lines and make things happen. But people would simply say he doesn't score or assist enough.  Only considering direct goal involvements is a very naïve way of interpreting a players performance. I really like A.Wharton, but he's lightweight and doesn't work that hard- he's a long way to go. I remember similar hyper around Buckley and to a lesser extent our England U21 captain Jason Lowe.  

O'Brien would be a transformative signing for us.  Wharton, the way how he carries himself- quite a languid, lazy looking style reminds me a lot of Buckley.  We've had a few decent results but at the end of the day cream rises to the top. I stand by my previous posts, out current centre mids are lightweight, small, struggle to carry the ball forward and are all much-of-a-muchness.  Desperately need some quality in there. If by some miracle this loan goes through I think we'll make play-offs.

[rigger]

19 minutes ago, Bohinen1983 said:

Wharton is not in the same league at the moment as O'Brien. He's a top class midfielder. I don't buy these stats people present. They did the same with Rothwell, his driving runs created space all over the pitch. He could break through the lines and make things happen. But people would simply say he doesn't score or assist enough.  Only considering direct goal involvements is a very naïve way of interpreting a players performance. I really like A.Wharton, but he's lightweight and doesn't work that hard- he's a long way to go. I remember similar hyper around Buckley and to a lesser extent our England U21 captain Jason Lowe.  

O'Brien would be a transformative signing for us.  Wharton, the way how he carries himself- quite a languid, lazy looking style reminds me a lot of Buckley.  We've had a few decent results but at the end of the day cream rises to the top. I stand by my previous posts, out current centre mids are lightweight, small, struggle to carry the ball forward and are all much-of-a-muchness.  Desperately need some quality in there. If by some miracle this loan goes through I think we'll make play-offs.

Languid and lazy looking style, you could be talking about Tugay

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, Bohinen1983 said:

Wharton is not in the same league at the moment as O'Brien. He's a top class midfielder. I don't buy these stats people present. They did the same with Rothwell, his driving runs created space all over the pitch. He could break through the lines and make things happen. But people would simply say he doesn't score or assist enough.  Only considering direct goal involvements is a very naïve way of interpreting a players performance. I really like A.Wharton, but he's lightweight and doesn't work that hard- he's a long way to go. I remember similar hyper around Buckley and to a lesser extent our England U21 captain Jason Lowe.  

O'Brien would be a transformative signing for us.  Wharton, the way how he carries himself- quite a languid, lazy looking style reminds me a lot of Buckley.  We've had a few decent results but at the end of the day cream rises to the top. I stand by my previous posts, out current centre mids are lightweight, small, struggle to carry the ball forward and are all much-of-a-muchness.  Desperately need some quality in there. If by some miracle this loan goes through I think we'll make play-offs.

Rothwell used to run out of ideas when he got to the final third. Those runs were exciting, but he often just gave the ball away at the end of them.

[Exiled_Rover]

55 minutes ago, rigger said:

Languid and lazy looking style, you could be talking about Tugay

I love the story Mark Nolan tells about Tugay: 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Exiled_Rover

[Upside Down]

3 hours ago, Tabula Rasa said:

As far as I understand it, assisted and expected touchdowns are the origin of these terms. They're imported from American sports. As well as the notion that stats - and more stats - are an intrinsic part of the game. Tugay proves that's not true. Not everything that matters can be measured. He's a classic case.

That is true.

I'm sick of football being changed to make it more like American sports.

American sports are a complete pile of wank. I'd rather watch my dog shit on my lawn than that boring shit.

[BRFC4EVA]

11 hours ago, Upside Down said:

That is true.

I'm sick of football being changed to make it more like American sports.

American sports are a complete pile of wank. I'd rather watch my dog shit on my lawn than that boring shit.

I take it you're not much of a fan? 🤣

[Devon Rover]

13 hours ago, Upside Down said:

That is true.

I'm sick of football being changed to make it more like American sports.

American sports are a complete pile of wank. I'd rather watch my dog shit on my lawn than that boring shit.

Fair point. I'd rather watch my dog shit on your lawn, too. 

Joking. I don't even own a dog. *Licks lips shiftily, piggy eyes glancing side to side, knocks back a morning whiskey*

[Atko's Engine]

On 24/02/2023 at 11:27, smiller14 said:

Assists is a flawed measure when looking at centre midfield performance. As DMTP says above, often they 'assist' the player who is credited with the assist. Tugay probably ranked pretty little in assists for us, but how often did he control a game? The best example I can think of is the goal vs Liverpool on Boxing Day - Tugay made Gerrard look silly, played a wonderful pass to MGP who set up McCarthy. 

Now, I'm not even remotely insinuating our centre midfields have 'ran games' or even played well, as that hasn't been true. I think they've been poor at times, and Morton has regressed considerably since Christmas. Buckley and Travis seem to be coming to, at least. 

It's like keepers get the credit for clean sheets, and rightly so in many cases. But in some cases (like Tuesday) a keeper has no shot on target to save. On other times a keeper might have a storming game but concede 2 or 3 goals.

Stats can be manipulated massively, so the goals scored / assists created stat is also easily misleading.

I totally agree with your last para too, Morton was much better pre WC than after, fortunately Travis & Buckley seem to be stepping up a bit.

And as for notion that the club should abandon the appeal, that's nonsense. Whilst I agree there's less benefit we are likely to get if successful purely by reference to the number of games passed since deadline day, we absolutely have to go full pelt to get him in. If we'd slid down to 8 points off the playoffs then I might feel differently, but being in 4th place it's a total no brainer, regardless of whether it's us, the EFL or both who've cocked up.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Atko's Engine

[Tugayisgod]

14 hours ago, Exiled_Rover said:

I love the story Mark Nolan tells about Tugay: 

 

" Was he a striker ? " Jeez 😮😮

[rigger]

40 minutes ago, Tugayisgod said:

" Was he a striker ? " Jeez 😮😮

And these people are probably paid for the job.

[yeti-dog]

On 24/02/2023 at 13:19, Mellor Rover said:

It's not bollocks from what I was told, he left the training field early after a 'bad' tackle on him, got changed and went home. 

Then he clearly does still need to grow up a little. 

Seems clear to me that JDT doesn't hold grudges given players who've found themselves back in the fold. Wharton needs to get back, build up his fitness, play some games and give JDT a decision to make.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Brierley started in midfield for Rochdale today.

[roverandout]

Today shows midfield isn't a huge problem.  Especially with Wharton ready to come back.  Travis Buckley and Wharton are more than good enough.  

[roversfan99]

8 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Today shows midfield isn't a huge problem.  Especially with Wharton ready to come back.  Travis Buckley and Wharton are more than good enough.  

But if you can get a player who is better than all 3, surely you dont say no to an upgrade?

[roverandout]

7 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

But if you can get a player who is better than all 3, surely you dont say no to an upgrade?

Yes but he will be here for a few months.  Then it's unlikely he'll be here next season.  I know he might be the difference between play offs and not but it's really not worth all this faffing about at this stage. I wouldn't be against him being here on loan all next season instead no matter what league we're in

[Feed the Yak]

Question is, do we want him for the half dozen or so games that he'll likely be fit enough to play now that the £10mil promo clause might end up being activated after all...

[roversfan99]

13 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Yes but he will be here for a few months.  Then it's unlikely he'll be here next season.  I know he might be the difference between play offs and not but it's really not worth all this faffing about at this stage. I wouldn't be against him being here on loan all next season instead no matter what league we're in

How can him being potentially the difference between the play offs and not be "not worth all this faffing about?"