v Luton Town (h) - 1/5/23

[booth]

1 minute ago, jim mk2 said:

The nub of it really.  Championship managers had us sussed out by the new year. 

I'd say earlier, we were just getting away with it.

[Sweaty Gussets]

Just now, booth said:

It is very weird, especially when it's happened in so many games recently. For example the Hedges "chip" wouldn't have happened at any of the other clubs above us, the forwards they have would have put it away.

Pickering with a gilt edged chance yesterday. Hedges hitting the inside of the post in the cup at Sheff Utd  and various other misses. PNE and Cov denying us wins through cheating or bizarre own goals. We've had absolutely no luck and it took a worldie from the greatest side ever to play in the championship  🙂 to beat us. They didn't lay a glove on us besides that.

We're a good team, better than any Mowbray team, and that's in his first season in charge. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 minutes ago, booth said:

It is very weird, especially when it's happened in so many games recently. For example the Hedges "chip" wouldn't have happened at any of the other clubs above us, the forwards they have would have put it away.

Hedges isn’t a finisher. My mum could have put the one he missed at Leicester away. If you can’t score with a chance like that you aren’t going to score many.

[DE.]

12 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

That has been the case on occasion but the Luton game is available to watch again for free on RoversTV. We came at them in waves, we just can't put the ball in the net. The evidence is there.

I find the denial of the clear evidence a bit weird (not particularly aimed at you).

It was very much the case under Mowbray, and I don't think it's really changed. That's not to say we're necessarily playing any worse than under Mowbray, I just don't think possession-based football suits these players as we don't fashion a huge amount of good chances - and as you noted, we struggle to score, so it's going to be even more difficult when a team is sat back and asking us to pose them questions. On the other hand, when counter-attacking the opposition team will be stretched when we break, making it easier to find gaps and provide better chances for our attackers to score. 

I think if the goal is for us to play a possession-based game we need players better suited to that style from an attacking perspective, and I'm not sure the budget is there to replace many of the current squad. 

[Sweaty Gussets]

3 minutes ago, DE. said:

It was very much the case under Mowbray, and I don't think it's really changed. That's not to say we're necessarily playing any worse than under Mowbray, I just don't think possession-based football suits these players as we don't fashion a huge amount of good chances - and as you noted, we struggle to score, so it's going to be even more difficult when a team is sat back and asking us to pose them questions. On the other hand, when counter-attacking the opposition team will be stretched when we break, making it easier to find gaps and provide better chances for our attackers to score. 

I think if the goal is for us to play a possession-based game we need players better suited to that style from an attacking perspective, and I'm not sure the budget is there to replace many of the current squad. 

I think it's slightly more nuanced than that.

Up to about January we would play out from the back and run out of ideas on halfway. It was embarrassing to watch at times and I commented on it on here before Christmas. 

We now cut through teams quite easily and get to the edge of their box and then run out of idea...or try to walk it in. The improvement in how well we 'play through the lines', to use that awful term, is quite stark. JRC has been a massive part of that improvement because he's very good at dropping into space where a RCM would normally be and spraying passes out wide or playing through the oppositions midfield. Wharton will also become central to that when he finds more consistency.  

So, I think comparisons with Mowbray's possession football are a long way wide of the mark. The football is much quicker now. If you compare the teams yesterday we were like Barcelona compared to them in the way we moved the ball around. They looked like a pub side in that first half. 

As for counter-attacking, that's also improved. We'd have never scored the goal at home to Sheff Utd under Mowbray. 

JDT doesn't get the credit he deserves for the way he's transformed the way the team plays. The fitness levels are also frightening. 

He knows where the problems are. His constant remarks about missed opportunities and quality in the final third tell you where he knows the team needs to improve.

Nothing is certain, but I'm excited about next season.

[roversfan99]

We scored a goal against Brentford that was very similar to Pickering v Sheff United.

Mowbray's possession focused team was ineffective, we finished 15th. Tomasson has had more success with that specific tactic, but I don't agree that this season we have been any better than last season, the league table cannot be argued with. We did also put in performances last season that were a million miles more entertaining than last season, think at home to Birmingham, at home to Peterborough, away at Preston, totally battered all of them. Bournemouth away, comfortably saw off the 2nd best side.

Rankin Costello's development is definitely a huge positive tactically by Tomasson, but I don't think that his transformation has been matched by the team. The way he slots into midfield is such a useful asset to the point that even though Brittain is okay, we cannot think of moving him. But there were tactical nuances last season that worked, notably Brereton playing left of essentially a front 2 with Buckley floating between him and Khadra.

Since the international break, the one performance that impressed me was Huddersfield away, domination and crucially loads of chances. Burnley didnt offer much, but I can barely remember a chance we created. 

 

[Boroblue]

11 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

I think it's slightly more nuanced than that.

Up to about January we would play out from the back and run out of ideas on halfway. It was embarrassing to watch at times and I commented on it on here before Christmas. 

We now cut through teams quite easily and get to the edge of their box and then run out of idea...or try to walk it in. The improvement in how well we 'play through the lines', to use that awful term, is quite stark. JRC has been a massive part of that improvement because he's very good at dropping into space where a RCM would normally be and spraying passes out wide or playing through the oppositions midfield. Wharton will also become central to that when he finds more consistency.  

So, I think comparisons with Mowbray's possession football are a long way wide of the mark. The football is much quicker now. If you compare the teams yesterday we were like Barcelona compared to them in the way we moved the ball around. They looked like a pub side in that first half. 

As for counter-attacking, that's also improved. We'd have never scored the goal at home to Sheff Utd under Mowbray. 

JDT doesn't get the credit he deserves for the way he's transformed the way the team plays. The fitness levels are also frightening. 

He knows where the problems are. His constant remarks about missed opportunities and quality in the final third tell you where he knows the team needs to improve.

Nothing is certain, but I'm excited about next season.

In my opinion I don’t think I’ve read a better summary of the situation on here. 

[aletheia]

Inevitably, Mowbray v JDT has surfaced. As has the age-old debate that given what we have (ie dysfunction, no funds etc) would a different manager be able to get a better tune out of said deficiencies.

But on another tack, could I ask a question of those thoughtful/knowledgeable posters on here concerning incoming loans? (Apologies in advance if I have these wrong).

So Mowbray – Elliot, Tosin, JPH, Giles, Poveda, Khadra, Ayala (free), Dolan (free), Branthwaite, Harwood-Bellis, Cunningham, Downing (free), Johnson (free), Mulgrew, Diaz, Palmer, Reed, Armstrong , Rothwell??

JDT has had Morton, Thomas, Mola, Hirst.

Obviously the gurning one had longer. And if you accept (you may not) that those loans under Mowbray are better than under JDT, my question is how far is the manager responsible and say his mates/contacts? Is it a case of having little black books of contacts or do scouts do it? How far is it to do with agents? Has our ‘stock’ as a club gone down that we can’t even attract top quality loans?

[roversfan99]

I dont think anyone has implied that we would be better off with Mowbray now.

[DE.]

25 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

I think it's slightly more nuanced than that.

Up to about January we would play out from the back and run out of ideas on halfway. It was embarrassing to watch at times and I commented on it on here before Christmas. 

We now cut through teams quite easily and get to the edge of their box and then run out of idea...or try to walk it in. The improvement in how well we 'play through the lines', to use that awful term, is quite stark. JRC has been a massive part of that improvement because he's very good at dropping into space where a RCM would normally be and spraying passes out wide or playing through the oppositions midfield. Wharton will also become central to that when he finds more consistency.  

So, I think comparisons with Mowbray's possession football are a long way wide of the mark. The football is much quicker now. If you compare the teams yesterday we were like Barcelona compared to them in the way we moved the ball around. They looked like a pub side in that first half. 

As for counter-attacking, that's also improved. We'd have never scored the goal at home to Sheff Utd under Mowbray. 

JDT doesn't get the credit he deserves for the way he's transformed the way the team plays. The fitness levels are also frightening. 

He knows where the problems are. His constant remarks about missed opportunities and quality in the final third tell you where he knows the team needs to improve.

Nothing is certain, but I'm excited about next season.

Good post. I won't argue with much of it, other than to say I don't think we're completely consistent with our play - it can be very good, but it can also be laboured and aimless, and we've had some fortune in our passing around the back not being punished at times. You can see the point of what we're trying to do when we get it right though, which wasn't really the case under Mowbray. It just felt like we were having possession for the sake of it all of the time - until he realised it wasn't working and eventually moved away from that style. Tomasson meanwhile clearly has a vision for how he wants this to work, and there are occasions where we've seen that and it has been impressive, but I still think we need some crucial roles filled to fully realise Tomasson's ideas, and if the budget isn't there I'm not sure how that can be achieved.  

Probably the best example of us playing the way you described was Leicester when we absolutely tore them apart for 60 minutes or so. Huddersfield second half was another. We also had some good spells against Burnley in the first half where we really pinned them back, albeit not creating any real chances. So I don't disagree that the potential is there, and it goes without saying we can't expect full consistency in JDT's first season - particularly with so little decent attacking options available.

I obviously hope you're right and next season will see us improve further, but there's a lot riding on the recruitment team to step up, and after January I don't trust them at all to deliver the goods on the attacking front. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by DE.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

14 minutes ago, aletheia said:

Inevitably, Mowbray v JDT has surfaced. As has the age-old debate that given what we have (ie dysfunction, no funds etc) would a different manager be able to get a better tune out of said deficiencies.

But on another tack, could I ask a question of those thoughtful/knowledgeable posters on here concerning incoming loans? (Apologies in advance if I have these wrong).

So Mowbray – Elliot, Tosin, JPH, Giles, Poveda, Khadra, Ayala (free), Dolan (free), Branthwaite, Harwood-Bellis, Cunningham, Downing (free), Johnson (free), Mulgrew, Diaz, Palmer, Reed, Armstrong , Rothwell??

JDT has had Morton, Thomas, Mola, Hirst.

Obviously the gurning one had longer. And if you accept (you may not) that those loans under Mowbray are better than under JDT, my question is how far is the manager responsible and say his mates/contacts? Is it a case of having little black books of contacts or do scouts do it? How far is it to do with agents? Has our ‘stock’ as a club gone down that we can’t even attract top quality loans?

 

You’ve missed out Harper from WBA and that full back from Liverpool who hardly ever played. Edit Sam Hart.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[jim mk2]

12 minutes ago, aletheia said:

So Mowbray – Elliot, Tosin, JPH, Giles, Khadra, Harwood-Bellis

All those would enhance the current team. Why Tony didn't play Giles in his correct position only he knows. Played 40 games for Boro this season. Good player. Khadra was inconsistent but could unlock defences - a type of player we've been lacking

[bluebruce]

22 minutes ago, aletheia said:

And if you accept (you may not) that those loans under Mowbray are better than under JDT, my question is how far is the manager responsible and say his mates/contacts? Is it a case of having little black books of contacts or do scouts do it? How far is it to do with agents? Has our ‘stock’ as a club gone down that we can’t even attract top quality loans?

 

Almost nothing to do with the manager now. 'Ask Gregg'.

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, Miller11 said:

Funny how the only time we managed to get the ball in the back of the net was a header from a centre back.

I’d have put Leonard on as well (a lot earlier than Tomasson did). I thought him and Sorba Thomas were effective when they eventually got on, but I’d have thrown Ayala up top too as we were desperate for goals… if nothing else it might have encouraged Hyam to knock one long instead of playing one-twos with Pears in Brittain in injury time.

Yes putting the ball into the box from corners instead of short ones too many times. Also it was good delivery and good run and header by Carter. 

It would be interest to see how you would have set up with Leonard and Ayala with Thomas wide so I guess you would have still have Dack and Szmodics on the pitch? So how would you have set up considering the players you wanted on the pitch? 

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

We have rarely looked like scoring in the last few weeks and months, just a couple of decent chances a game. 

How much is that down to quality striker tho? a out and out striker would better runs, run in behind the defenders creating spaces, etc

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes putting the ball into the box from corners instead of short ones too many times. Also it was good delivery and good run and header by Carter. 

It would be interest to see how you would have set up with Leonard and Ayala with Thomas wide so I guess you would have still have Dack and Szmodics on the pitch? So how would you have set up considering the players you wanted on the pitch? 

How much is that down to quality striker tho? a out and out striker would better runs, run in behind the defenders creating spaces, etc

Once teams get their noses in front and park the bus like last night the chances of us playing through them are severely limited. Shoving a lamp post up front would cause them problems they might not be able to deal with. By pass the midfield and concentrate on getting the ball in the last third.

[tomphil]

It's a different type of possession under JDT and when it works it's worked really well but with the same issues at the top end of the pitch as we had under Mowbray. 

As the season has progressed we've been doing it quicker and in deeper positions than under TM who's version was sideways and backwards all across the pitch whilst moving in lines getting men forward.  Then often get screwed on the counter after having nobody to aim for in the box.

Now we create angles and some quick decent patterns although in some real risky situations.  Real problem again is nothing in the box and trying to play possession football in the opposition penalty area instead of head down shoot, square, cross, cutback etc

Much prefer the current version to the lockdown one it was dire and way less effective and as frustrating as it is now there is a plan implemented, rather than wing it week in week out worrying about modest/crap opposition.

Sadly though the consistent is there is still no plan B and as i've moaned about for years simply having a lump on the bench to throw on and aim for would probably gather us another point or three per season.

[chaddyrovers]

23 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Once teams get their noses in front and park the bus like last night the chances of us playing through them are severely limited. Shoving a lamp post up front would cause them problems they might not be able to deal with. By pass the midfield and concentrate on getting the ball in the last third.

Playing it long to an Ayala for example would have suited their defenders like Bradley. What was need was runs in between their defenders and behind to turn the defence and causes more problems. Defenders like Bradley don't want to runners in behind them

Also how would set the team up formation and players wise then if this is your suggestion? 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

We needed a bit of both. Get them out of their comfort zone. Go with three at the back and by pass the midfield. Get it in the last third.

[Miller11]

50 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

It would be interest to see how you would have set up with Leonard and Ayala with Thomas wide so I guess you would have still have Dack and Szmodics on the pitch? So how would you have set up considering the players you wanted on the pitch? 

I’d have thrown the kitchen sink at them for 5 minutes. Get as many players in the box and get the ball in there as frequently as possible.     

 

[bazza]

11 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

With Luton it's not just the recruitment, it's the organisation and ethos behind the team - their pragmatism, not giving much away, not playing pretty passing but effective football, and have a manager (and the previous one who went to Soton) who can spot a team's weakness and who don't give anything away

I hate writing this about what is really another small rubbish southern club

 

Jim, you keep harping on about Luton being a small, tinpot, little club who don't deserve to be in the top or even the second tier.

Back in the early 1950s I remember the Rovers (with players like Kelly and Quigley etc.) battling against all the L's each season. These clubs were Liverpool, Leicester City, Leeds Utd and Luton Town.I considered them all to be big powerful clubs.

The smaller ones of that era (to me) were the likes of Plymouth Argyle, Lincoln City (who once thrashed us 8-0 at their place), Rotherham Utd and Doncaster Rovers.

Renrag will remember those days.

[Exiled in Toronto Mk2]

34 minutes ago, bazza said:

Jim, you keep harping on about Luton being a small, tinpot, little club who don't deserve to be in the top or even the second tier.

Back in the early 1950s I remember the Rovers (with players like Kelly and Quigley etc.) battling against all the L's each season. These clubs were Liverpool, Leicester City, Leeds Utd and Luton Town.I considered them all to be big powerful clubs.

The smaller ones of that era (to me) were the likes of Plymouth Argyle, Lincoln City (who once thrashed us 8-0 at their place), Rotherham Utd and Doncaster Rovers.

Renrag will remember those days.

I agree. FA Cup finalists the year before our last appearance, won the League Cup well before we did, they also have 18 wins against our 13 head to head. So, not giants of the game but not tinpot either. 

Somewhat amazingly, they got relegated from the old first division to the 4th then promoted back to the first all in the space of 14 years.

[jim mk2]

1 hour ago, bazza said:

Jim, you keep harping on about Luton being a small, tinpot, little club who don't deserve to be in the top or even the second tier.

Back in the early 1950s I remember the Rovers (with players like Kelly and Quigley etc.) battling against all the L's each season. These clubs were Liverpool, Leicester City, Leeds Utd and Luton Town.I considered them all to be big powerful clubs.

The smaller ones of that era (to me) were the likes of Plymouth Argyle, Lincoln City (who once thrashed us 8-0 at their place), Rotherham Utd and Doncaster Rovers.

Renrag will remember those days.

Yes I know. It just grates to see them and others such as Bournemouth and Brentford and Brighton doing well when historic Lancashire town clubs such as Blackburn, Bolton and Blackpool continue to languish. Maybe it's a north-south thing 

Funnily enough, for some reason that I can't remember I had tickets for the 1988 League Cup final when Luton beat Arsenal at Wembley. The Stein brothers were playing for Luton. I was rooting for Luton that day because no one supports Arsenal 

Edited May 2, 2023 by jim mk2

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Yes putting the ball into the box from corners instead of short ones too many times. Also it was good delivery and good run and header by Carter. 

It would be interest to see how you would have set up with Leonard and Ayala with Thomas wide so I guess you would have still have Dack and Szmodics on the pitch? So how would you have set up considering the players you wanted on the pitch? 

How much is that down to quality striker tho? a out and out striker would better runs, run in behind the defenders creating spaces, etc

But equally, I can't deem us (in my opinion) as improving if we aren't creating chances. You could put a top striker in any team and they would offer more of a goal threat. I don't believe that as the season has come on, that our tactics have developed in a way that has seen us improve at all from an attacking perspective.

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, bazza said:

Jim, you keep harping on about Luton being a small, tinpot, little club who don't deserve to be in the top or even the second tier.

Back in the early 1950s I remember the Rovers (with players like Kelly and Quigley etc.) battling against all the L's each season. These clubs were Liverpool, Leicester City, Leeds Utd and Luton Town.I considered them all to be big powerful clubs.

The smaller ones of that era (to me) were the likes of Plymouth Argyle, Lincoln City (who once thrashed us 8-0 at their place), Rotherham Utd and Doncaster Rovers.

Renrag will remember those days.

That's about 70 years ago, and their entire trophy cabinet reads:

One League Cup, One EFL Trophy

Wow. Tinpot. Their next greatest claims are runner up in the FA Cup once, and runner up in the Full Members Cup once. 16 seasons in the top flight in total I believe. Oooooh, big boys. We have 18 seasons there just since it became the Prem.

All that said, nobody should be saying they don't deserve to be up there. If they get up there then, unless it involves some chicanery, they deserve to be there and it's as simple as that. We won't deserve it over them, because we have simply made too many wrong decisions as a club and they've gone about their business better. People try to apply similar logic to us, saying our fanbase is too small to deserve a Prem spot, and it's just as much bullshit then too. Heck this is Luton's second consecutive year in the playoffs.

You don't get out of this league because you have a right to, you get out of it because you earn it.

[chaddyrovers]

3 hours ago, Miller11 said:

I’d have thrown the kitchen sink at them for 5 minutes. Get as many players in the box and get the ball in there as frequently as possible.     

I just don't think it would have work. Suits them more than us.

Who would he come on for? BBD? JRC? 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

But equally, I can't deem us (in my opinion) as improving if we aren't creating chances. You could put a top striker in any team and they would offer more of a goal threat. I don't believe that as the season has come on, that our tactics have developed in a way that has seen us improve at all from an attacking perspective.

We have created chances in games but also he would help us attacking wise with his movement and link up play hence created more chances. 

Like I said I think overall play as improve since the World Cup break in terms of passing and more comfortably as possession based team