Venky’s, HMRC…The Plot Thickens ?

[tomphil]

Have we not all learnt yet from the remarkable amounts of coincidental timing there has been in situations similar to this over the past 13 years ?

[RevidgeBlue]

3 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Some suggesting on twitter we would get funds now based on previous ruling?

I'm not sure that's correct but dont know its incorrect either. . Pretty sure SW said we had to provide substantiation to each claim and given they granted the funds on the previous bills, surely they won't just grant another 11 million blindly in absence of the hearing?

I genuinely don't know their laws .

Anyone more legally minded know the likelihood of the above scenario?

I don't know their laws either but chances of that are non existent I would have thought.

[phili]

2 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Iv'e said before McGuire really isn't the gospel on these things he just rehashes stuff already out there without any meat on the bones.

You genuinely learn more from a few on here and i assume that's a source for him as well.

There is no way they owe HMRC £26m, however it's quite possible they have managed to defraud the Indian Tax authorities of £26m.

Also he got an awful lot wrong in 5 mins.

[Bethnal]

Seem to remember wording that the funds had to be sent in line with “contractual obligations” meaning parent company to BRFC & Athletic as an entity. So the court delay puts them in breach, I understand, although would stand to be corrected entirely.

Like to think I have a good nose for when I’m about to get fucked and believe me, my nose is twitching.

Only thing that springs to mind is an extremely factual, full-page ad in the most-read newspaper(s) in India, in English and regional dialects, outlining the situation, signed on behalf of concerned fans. That paid media coverage should lead to a lot of earned media coverage and - so long as it remains factual - avoid whatever the libel laws are over there.

There are enough of us here to work towards crowdfunding it and to put together the message itself.

Protests don’t echo in India. We need to fight this on their own patch.

[JHRover]

Yeah there's no way HMRC would have allowed us to run up that sort of tab without serious action being taken before now including winding up petitions, which even with the non-existent local reporting would have found its way into the public domain.

It seems the basis of Venky's applications to the Indian court are that if the court doesn't grant the request then the club/investment goes bust very quickly. With that in mind I suspect that as long as the circumstances haven't significantly changed and as long as they can justify the amount they are seeking to transfer from India to the UK then it is likely to be granted again.

The problem is funding beyond essential obligations, which is a separate issue for determination as those cannot be justified by threat of the club going bust without.

The cash used to buy the player today will have come from the club's own 'resources' in much the same way as all our previous recent purchases. The club doesn't have very much money without external input but will have enough to scrape together hundreds of thousands to buy the cheaper end development projects on League One or Two wages.

This is precisely what they've been building towards for years and what they mean when they talk about reducing the demands on the owners.

Unfortunately for us keeping Venkys as owners but not having much / any extra funding from them is the worst possible outcome. One of our only chances of being rid of them is that they either can't afford to fund us any more or they get the club taken off them. If they get to a stage where the club is effectively covering itself at minimum aggro or cost to them it is more likely they'll just leave us in a drawer for longer to stagnate.

[Waggy76]

55 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Venkys now have an excuse to sell all our assets.

How likely is admin? Or a points deduction 

If it gets rid of the Venkys, I don't care !

[Herbie6590]

If I was a UK director of a Venky’s/Rovers limited company I’d be reading the small print around insolvency legislation closely in case it meant I was at risk of becoming personally liable…

https://helix-law.co.uk/directors-responsibility-company-debts/#

[wilsdenrover]

36 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Just says "allegations" of an unpaid £26m tax bill. Nothing to substantiate it.

Interesting listen overall though.

Thank you 

[wilsdenrover]

28 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Some suggesting on twitter we would get funds now based on previous ruling?

I'm not sure that's correct but dont know its incorrect either. . Pretty sure SW said we had to provide substantiation to each claim and given they granted the funds on the previous bills, surely they won't just grant another 11 million blindly in absence of the hearing?

I genuinely don't know their laws .

Anyone more legally minded know the likelihood of the above scenario?

I don’t know their laws either but why have the second case at all if the funds could be sent based on the first one?

[ruggles1995]

I dont know anywhere near enough the ins and outs of this situation. But does any fan on here really know what money the club has and hasnt got in its current club bank? The fact we are purchasing players says to me Venkys have somehow got some way around it or funds to keep the lights on and cover wages. These are stingey owners who don't come across like they want to spend money on players, the fact we are are signing anyone says to me its not as bad as some are making out, in terms of we can pay wages till this things gone through in march or whenever its been delayed to. 

All I seem to read is people finding docs from the internet of laws etc, but im not sure anyone really knows whats going on, nobody is close to the venkys. The fact they've even lasted this long without going under says to me they will somehow plod us through on thin ice with the bare minimum needed.  I know its a shambles of running a club, but my head says they wouldn't sanction purchasing more players if we really couldn't pay wages or lights etc. We've obviously got some dollar in the club kittee till the season ends. I suppose it just depends how long this drags on. 

[Crimpshrine]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Then there’s Sammie, then there’s err… oh yeah Brockhall 

The intersting thing about Brockhall is that the price they paid was based on it's vlaue with planning permission granted. As far as I know, there is no planning permission for building on the training ground.

I wonder if this has been looked at suspiciously in India like the purchase of the Neville mansion ? Another reason to question their intentions and stop them sending money over?

According to the court documents from last time, the investigations into Venky's overseas activities are at a 'nascent stage'. Who knows what they have unearthed in the last few months

[Miller11]

19 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

Some suggesting on twitter we would get funds now based on previous ruling?

I'm not sure that's correct but dont know its incorrect either. . Pretty sure SW said we had to provide substantiation to each claim and given they granted the funds on the previous bills, surely they won't just grant another 11 million blindly in absence of the hearing?

I genuinely don't know their laws .

Anyone more legally minded know the likelihood of the above scenario?

This isn’t absolute gospel, just my understanding of the situation, and I’m no expert. However there is possibly some info that isn’t really widely acknowledged or maybe known:

- The investigations started back in 2021, initially there were no restrictions on them moving money out of India as the RBI had no objections. This changed in August 2022, at which point it became a requirement that any company under investigation required a No Objection Certificate  (NOC) agreed by the entity doing the investigation - the Enforcement Directorate in this case

- We received the NOC for remittances in 2022

- We applied for another on 17th January 2023 which was rejected on 6th March, and a further rejection on the 31st March (for the amount of £26 million). This was rejected on the basis of the “Pedancy of investigation”. After this rejection Venky’s legal team also requested a quick resolution to the ED investigation

- On the 27th April 2023 Venky’s received correspondence from HMRC threatening a winding up order.

- On 24th May Venky’s received a letter from BRFC advising them of the potential consequences of not receiving immediate payments (presumably administration)

- On 23rd June Venky’s were granted permission to transfer £3.5 million based on the potential consequences outlined in the above letter. They were instructed that an equal amount had to be set aside as a guarantee as any future action taken by the ED would be a financial penalty (so presumably they don’t want Venky’s sending over money then pleading poverty if/when they get a fine)

- On 16th August the ED reported that their investigation would be completed within 15 days

- On 31st October Venky’s submitted another application for a NOC in which they highlighted the reason for these funds. As we know, this was allowed with some conditions:

   A further guarantee of an equivalent sum

   Auditors at club have 3 working days to file   an End use Certificate (this certifies club are the end user of these funds and they won’t be transferred elsewhere)

The club must provide bank statements to prove these payments were made

 

- In this hearing it was outlined that club activities were not under suspicion, BUT the investigation was only at a “nascent stage”. This is very much contrary to what was reported on August 16th, and suggests these issues could run and run. It also suggests club finances will come under the microscope at some point

- Wording suggests that future remittances will be allowed, with the same caveats attached, but we’d still need to apply for the NOC, and this would likely not be granted if the club becomes under investigation

 

So while the money remitted has to be used for the specified purpose, it’s not entirely accurate to state Rovers can’t spend anything that hasn’t had court approval. They don’t care about the minutia of Rovers accounts (yet!), and funds generated by the club can be used for activities outside the scope of the court document (which covered Wages, tax, VAT, loan repayments, utilities and agents fees). So our fixture against Chelsea probably covered a chunk of the O’Riordan fee.

This latest round of funding we went for was likely to cover the same expenses from January til the end of the season. I expect there will be some funds available to cover some of those expenses, generated by TV payments, ticket sales, league payments etc. whether that lasts til the hearing in March, we will have to see. It almost certainly means that our very modest transfer budget has disappeared and we will be in another period of extreme austerity. I’m waiting for the announcement that I can’t sit in the Riverside on Monday.

So we will probably muddle through until the next date in March, with threats of winding up orders and missed payments, unless it gets moved again. Our transfer window plans are of no interest to Indian Courts who have cancelled and delayed several hearings already this year. Maybe there is some sort of contingency (player sale, short term loan). A further delay might be catastrophic though. Either way, this situation has become farcical and can’t continue much longer.

[Rogerb]

1 hour ago, wilsdenrover said:

Could it not be part of the confirmation statement dated 13th October? (Venky London Limited)

Or is that date too early in October (I can’t remember the court date)

That statement just confirms there are just over 219 million shares in existence at that date. When there have been previous monies pumped in through allocation of new shares it has been described as such.

[glen9mullan]

12 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

This isn’t absolute gospel, just my understanding of the situation, and I’m no expert. However there is possibly some info that isn’t really widely acknowledged or maybe known:

- The investigations started back in 2021, initially there were no restrictions on them moving money out of India as the RBI had no objections. This changed in August 2022, at which point it became a requirement that any company under investigation required a No Objection Certificate  (NOC) agreed by the entity doing the investigation - the Enforcement Directorate in this case

- We received the NOC for remittances in 2022

- We applied for another on 17th January 2023 which was rejected on 6th March, and a further rejection on the 31st March (for the amount of £26 million). This was rejected on the basis of the “Pedancy of investigation”. After this rejection Venky’s legal team also requested a quick resolution to the ED investigation

- On the 27th April 2023 Venky’s received correspondence from HMRC threatening a winding up order.

- On 24th May Venky’s received a letter from BRFC advising them of the potential consequences of not receiving immediate payments (presumably administration)

- On 23rd June Venky’s were granted permission to transfer £3.5 million based on the potential consequences outlined in the above letter. They were instructed that an equal amount had to be set aside as a guarantee as any future action taken by the ED would be a financial penalty (so presumably they don’t want Venky’s sending over money then pleading poverty if/when they get a fine)

- On 16th August the ED reported that their investigation would be completed within 15 days

- On 31st October Venky’s submitted another application for a NOC in which they highlighted the reason for these funds. As we know, this was allowed with some conditions:

   A further guarantee of an equivalent sum

   Auditors at club have 3 working days to file   an End use Certificate (this certifies club are the end user of these funds and they won’t be transferred elsewhere)

The club must provide bank statements to prove these payments were made

 

- In this hearing it was outlined that club activities were not under suspicion, BUT the investigation was only at a “nascent stage”. This is very much contrary to what was reported on August 16th, and suggests these issues could run and run. It also suggests club finances will come under the microscope at some point

- Wording suggests that future remittances will be allowed, with the same caveats attached, but we’d still need to apply for the NOC, and this would likely not be granted if the club becomes under investigation

 

So while the money remitted has to be used for the specified purpose, it’s not entirely accurate to state Rovers can’t spend anything that hasn’t had court approval. They don’t care about the minutia of Rovers accounts (yet!), and funds generated by the club can be used for activities outside the scope of the court document (which covered Wages, tax, VAT, loan repayments, utilities and agents fees). So our fixture against Chelsea probably covered a chunk of the O’Riordan fee.

This latest round of funding we went for was likely to cover the same expenses from January til the end of the season. I expect there will be some funds available to cover some of those expenses, generated by TV payments, ticket sales, league payments etc. whether that lasts til the hearing in March, we will have to see. It almost certainly means that our very modest transfer budget has disappeared and we will be in another period of extreme austerity. I’m waiting for the announcement that I can’t sit in the Riverside on Monday.

So we will probably muddle through until the next date in March, with threats of winding up orders and missed payments, unless it gets moved again. Our transfer window plans are of no interest to Indian Courts who have cancelled and delayed several hearings already this year. Maybe there is some sort of contingency (player sale, short term loan). A further delay might be catastrophic though. Either way, this situation has become farcical and can’t continue much longer.

So are you saying. "No hearing no funds"?

[Miller11]

3 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

So are you saying. "No hearing no funds"?

Absolutely. They can’t release any funds without that No Objection Certificate.

[MarkBRFC]

16 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

 Either way, this situation has become farcical and can’t continue much longer.

Yet I bet you a steak dinner that it does.

[Rogerb]

Expect further problems with the web site and phone lines before too long

[den]

Football clubs and administration. Interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administration_(British_football)

[alcd]

2 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Can't be surely.

More likely £2.6 m. Obviously £26m is a ridiculous figure that makes no sense for a business with a £15m turnover and a £20m wage bill. 

[RevidgeBlue]

2 minutes ago, alcd said:

More likely £2.6 m. Obviously £26m is a ridiculous figure that makes no sense for a business with a £15m turnover and a £20m wage bill. 

Not what they said on the podcast but I agree with you. Even at 40% an alleged tax debt of £26m would equate to unpaid PAYE on wages of well over £60m

[Rogerb]

6 minutes ago, alcd said:

More likely £2.6 m. Obviously £26m is a ridiculous figure that makes no sense for a business with a £15m turnover and a £20m wage bill. 

That £2.6 million is less than was included for 3 months tax in the October release of funds

[Herbie6590]

26 minutes ago, alcd said:

More likely £2.6 m. Obviously £26m is a ridiculous figure that makes no sense for a business with a £15m turnover and a £20m wage bill. 

Suspect the £26m figure Duncan explains above has been conflated to “£26m tax bill” TBH 

[Miller11]

3 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

Suspect the £26m figure Duncan explains above has been conflated to “£26m tax bill” TBH 

That was my thoughts. £26 million seems to be the annual amount Venky’s are happy/willing/prepared to remit. At a guess yesterday’s amount would be around £15 million given the 11 in October. With some, but far from all of it earmarked for tax.

[BarryMaguire]

This just gets better and better....

[RoversClitheroe]

12 minutes ago, BarryMaguire said:

This just gets better and better....

?