Venky’s v Indian Government (a) - 13/11/2024 - Re-Arranged Challenge Match

[tomphil]

Surely it can't be 73 million ?

If it is then something rather odd has been going on how do you borrow 73 million from Barclays for a house worth 5 million ?

Those figures are more in line with what they pump into the club.

[Polky]

[den]

I’ll have a go.

1 crore is ten million. 

Ten million rupees is £95000

therefore 65 crore is £6,175,000

 

 

[lraC]

2 hours ago, Andy said:

From what I understand, it won't be that bad.

They are still putting (and intending to put) money into the club, though the emphasis has been the club having to help out in this interim period (eg retaining some of the funds raised by transfers).

How it affects the longer-term and whether it's a potential 'out' for them, genuinely don't know and we'll have to see how it plays out...

It won’t be that bad!!!!

Money laundering is a very serious offense and could lead to the perpetrators being jailed.

https://samistilegal.in/powers-of-the-enforcement-directorate-under-various-laws-and-the-rights-of-the-accused-aggrieved-persons/#:~:text=As per Section 6 of,a fugitive offender or not.

[lraC]

2 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

Interestingly they set up another company in Jersey in January,

With Zedra Trust also having financial interest and a Stephen guy also listed along side the V's.

They were appointed in 2016,

One of that companies directors appears to feature in the investigation we presented to the FA.

Learnt their lesson?

If the Indian government are claiming their assets for dodgy transactions to the UK, is the end in sight?

 

It could be another dose of bad advice. 

[Bethnal]

On a personal level, I hope they’re left penniless.

Practically, I hope we’re not left up the creek.

This is - by the looks - about £6m of seized property, give or take. What does that even mean? Someone getting a big fine? Jail time?

Being asked to give back £6m because the Indian government isn’t happy with how you spent it really shouldn’t be a big deal, if you’re funding a football operation to the tune of £20m/season.

Because their actions usually defy logic, it’s always difficult to figure them out, but the question I’ve often had around Venky’s is: “maybe they’re not as rich as they/we think they are?”

Edited September 6, 2023 by Bethnal

[lraC]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

https://shewore.com/2022/03/04/chelsea-ownership-was-always-a-money-laundering-project-for-abramovich/

Edited September 6, 2023 by lraC

[lraC]

3 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

Interestingly they set up another company in Jersey in January,

With Zedra Trust also having financial interest and a Stephen guy also listed along side the V's.

They were appointed in 2016,

One of that companies directors appears to feature in the investigation we presented to the FA.

Learnt their lesson?

If the Indian government are claiming their assets for dodgy transactions to the UK, is the end in sight?

 

Kevin Stephen Guy.

http://www.checkcompany.co.uk/director/5007878/MR-KEVIN-STEPHEN-GUY

[AllRoverAsia]

Truth at last.

Truth will out even though I suspect this is just the tip of an iceberg.

[philipl]

The explanations about tax were nonsense and a deflection.

The explanation that Venky's were subject to unusual Government restrictions were also nonsense.

The seizures of property by the  Foreign Exchange authorities are hugely significant. 

The Rao wealth is nearly all Indian real estate and other Indian assets.

In the big picture, Rovers are a big part of their non-Indian business so my gut feel this is really serious for our club if it is uncontrollable.

 

[philipl]

Previous post was factual as I see it.

This is purely non-factual and speculative. 

Nobody has remotely provided a rational explanation for the majority of the £270m sunk into Rovers. 

Prior to the 2012 relegation there is a shameful narrative which at least is rational.

Since then????

I am not making any assertion or allegations. 

 

But I do recall past cases of an American company or two making seemingly inexplicable operating losses overseas as a front for parallel cash and asset transfers away from IRS jurisdiction which overall were of greater benefit than the loss. The American authorities have made this sort of thing much more difficult. 

Hopefully, the Indian authorities are simply taking back asset values for a creative way of funding the now closed Swiss pharma business- if you were doing something creative moving assets out of India, Switzerland and Jersey make far more sense than the UK. Rovers in this case would be innocent collateral damage and Waggott has been told simply now is a sensitive time to transfer cash so hold tight for the moment. 

Being rational this is most likely.

 

However, if the Rovers ownership by Venky's is at the centre of something much more "creative" which has been busted by the Indian authorities, then those on brfcs dreaming of watching 7th tier football could be about to get their wishes fulfilled.

Edited September 6, 2023 by philipl

[lraC]

1 hour ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Truth at last.

Truth will out even though I suspect this is just the tip of an iceberg.

Lots of people have been lambasted for suggesting things such as money laundering was at the center of all this. Granted there have been some far fetched theories, but it has never made sense them owning us. 

I also suspect this is the tip of the iceberg too, but hopefully, this will grow and a proper investigation will now take place.

Hopefully the club will not suffer too much, as after all the club is the fans ultimately and a hardcore of these fans, did try their very best to show, not only the sports authorities, but the wider government, that there were big issue with the purchase and running of the club. 

The cover up took place and maybe now, finally the truth is starting to come out. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by lraC

[lraC]

9 minutes ago, philipl said:

Previous post was factual as I see it.

This is purely non-factual and speculative. 

Nobody has remotely provided a rational explanation for the majority of the £270m sunk into Rovers. 

Prior to the 2012 relegation there is a shameful narrative which at least is rational.

Since then????

I am not making any assertion or allegations. 

 

But I do recall past cases of an American company or two making seemingly inexplicable operating losses overseas as a front for parallel cash and asset transfers away from IRS jurisdiction which overall were of greater benefit than the loss. The American authorities have made this sort of thing much more difficult. 

Hopefully, the Indian authorities are simply taking back asset values for a creative way of funding the now closed Swiss pharma business- if you were doing something creative moving assets out of India, Switzerland and Jersey make far more sense than the UK. Rovers in this case would be innocent collateral damage and Waggott has been told simply now is a sensitive time to transfer cash so hold tight for the moment. 

Being rational this is most likely.

 

However, if the Rovers ownership by Venky's is at the centre of something much more "creative" which has been busted by the Indian authorities, then those on brfcs dreaming of watching 7th tier football could be about to get their wishes fulfilled.

Again, wild theories abound about what has to some, seemed like a deliberate relegation and then a reluctance to make it back to the prem.

Your theory, would make sense with a desire to also keep out of the limelight and plod along in the second or third tier. After all a club the size of Rovers, away from the bright lights of the prem, attracts almost no global exposure. 
 

A perfect foil to do this sort of thing. 

[Upside Down]

20 minutes ago, philipl said:

Previous post was factual as I see it.

This is purely non-factual and speculative. 

Nobody has remotely provided a rational explanation for the majority of the £270m sunk into Rovers. 

Prior to the 2012 relegation there is a shameful narrative which at least is rational.

Since then????

I am not making any assertion or allegations. 

 

But I do recall past cases of an American company or two making seemingly inexplicable operating losses overseas as a front for parallel cash and asset transfers away from IRS jurisdiction which overall were of greater benefit than the loss. The American authorities have made this sort of thing much more difficult. 

Hopefully, the Indian authorities are simply taking back asset values for a creative way of funding the now closed Swiss pharma business- if you were doing something creative moving assets out of India, Switzerland and Jersey make far more sense than the UK. Rovers in this case would be innocent collateral damage and Waggott has been told simply now is a sensitive time to transfer cash so hold tight for the moment. 

Being rational this is most likely.

 

However, if the Rovers ownership by Venky's is at the centre of something much more "creative" which has been busted by the Indian authorities, then those on brfcs dreaming of watching 7th tier football could be about to get their wishes fulfilled.

So like we've been saying for years, it was a tax write off or a way of laundering money in some shape way or form.

 

 

I for one am looking forward to seeing what will come of this. 

I wish nothing but pain and suffering on venkys and their stooges.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Upside Down

[Upside Down]

1 minute ago, lraC said:

Again, wild theories abound about what has to some, seemed like a deliberate relegation and then a reluctance to make it back to the prem.

Your theory, would make sense with a desire to also keep out of the limelight and plod along in the second or third tier. After all a club the size of Rovers, away from the bright lights of the prem, attracts almost no global exposure. 
 

A perfect foil to do this sort of thing. 

CONSPIRACY THEORIES!!!!!

It always seemed like a logical explanation to me, despite the absolute certainty from others that it was all just bungling incompetence. 

We could never say with any certainty what was going on. Maybe now we can....

[lraC]

https://www.fatf-gafi.org/en/publications/Methodsandtrends/Moneylaunderingthroughthefootballsector.html

[Roving Mick]

Oh Mrs Desai

[RoversClitheroe]

@glen9mullan glad to see your back posting! 

What happened with your meeting with SW?

[JHRover]

Whatever the outcome of all this, which we are powerless to control, surely we all agree that if something dodgy or illegal has been going on with the funding of the club then that needs to be the end of Venkys?

I hope nobody is suggesting that we should desire their continued presence / input if illegal activities have been taking place?

 

[martonrover]

11 hours ago, tomphil said:

Google Venkys under investigation, was trying to do a link to an article but can't for some reason.

Don't know it it's mentioned elsewhere on here..

You should email this to the Lancashire Telegraph. It might wake them up.

[JHRover]

16 minutes ago, martonrover said:

You should email this to the Lancashire Telegraph. It might wake them up.

Please delete 

[bluebruce]

So basically it sounds like Venkys bought Alexander House for a little over 6 million (the article seems to have confused the monetary conversion, I got a figure closer to Den's, and articles show the property was up for sale at that sort of price). I remember reports about them buying it at the time.

The problem, it sounds like, is they declared in their Indian taxes that it would be used for agriculture and mining purposes (mining apparently meaning rearing ducks and hens), presumably so they could write it off as a business expense over in India, as it could be attributed to their main businesses based there. Of course, it never was, as it was just a pleasure house bought for when they visited the UK or to entertain guests, friends and clients.

This sort of thing has clearly pissed the Indian authorities off, who have previously been reported a few years ago as having seized Venkys property in raids which if I recall rightly were linked to tax irregularities, and they've seized an equivalent value of properties to this latest irregularity.

6 millionish quid doesn't seem like a lot to the V's in the scheme of things, so why would it affect our funds? But keep in mind this seizure only happened on Monday. We heard Venkys and the Indian government were in talks for a while. Clearly those talks didn't go Venkys' way, but in the meantime they may have agreed (perhaps to show willing) or been forced to withhold UK investment until the matter was settled.

Whether this means it's over for now as far as Rovers not being able to receive funding remains to be seen. But this is my interpretation of what's being said and happened, with a little reading between the lines.

The property issue itself doesn't sound as drastic as is being made out. I don't see any links to money laundering issues (not that that couldn't also be the case, but I think that'd be in the report), just most likely an attempt to evade paying the proper taxes on a personal property by making it a business expense and/or using business funds instead of their own to buy it. Modi's government have a real hard on about foreign investment, so it's no surprise they'd try to make a statement with this.

This all makes more sense now than the claims the money was held back because of the new tax laws that don't kick in til October.

Edited September 6, 2023 by bluebruce

[tomphil]

37 minutes ago, martonrover said:

You should email this to the Lancashire Telegraph. It might wake them up.

I wouldn't expect a response they'll have to phone the club first and get told no don't rock the boat.

[Polky]

All this for a property that Mrs Desai has never set foot in 😂

Edited September 6, 2023 by Polky

[tomphil]

I said a while back that i wouldn't be surprised if the Indian tax authorities and govt had finally decided to take a closer look at just what is going on with a company who has sent c250 million to the UK in the last decade, with seemingly no return nor an actual growth in their investment.

So as far as i reckon they've had to freeze fund transfer whilst it is being looked at, sponsorship has been allowed as a business advertising expense obviously.   Seems so far this is what they've come up with or what has just made it to the surface but for all we know every transaction is being looked at.

That would be perfectly normal and wouldn't mean there is anything amiss but over a decade is a long time so there'll be a lot of things to look at.

We might finally find out what is at the heart of all this although i wouldn't hold my breath.  Just shows how these types work though sat on a personal fortune and cash pile they still penny pinch putting the purchase of a holiday home through the company books using borrowed money instead of just buying it outright.