Venky’s v Indian Government (a) - 13/11/2024 - Re-Arranged Challenge Match

[den]

Blackburn Rovers football club failed to pay their due tax to HMRC. They were then told if they didn’t pay it, a winding up order for Rovers would be actioned. Venkys Needed to appeal to the Indian courts to be allowed to provide the funds. It wasn’t a given the courts would agree.

These things happen all the time?

[Ben-2000]

1 hour ago, RoversClitheroe said:

The @RoversTrust should be putting a press release out asap asking for the removal of the board.

Reading fans are far more passionate than us and that's a really sad state of affairs.

 

I fear that despite all the good work the Trust do they won't want to rock the boat or jeopardise their relationship with Waggott and co. He's a proven liar now, so hope I'm wrong.

 

[Mattyblue]

‘Credit to the owners’

Oh.

[JHRover]

4 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

 

Secondly the owners, whether fans like it or not, took the applications to the High Court at no doubt great expense.  They secured payments to Rovers and the HMRC, VAT, staff etc have all been paid.  Whether fans like it or not credit should be given to the owners for this.

 

I don't understand why they deserve credit in your eyes for taking these steps. Have they had any alternative to doing this and if not why do they deserve credit for doing something they have no realistic choice on?

I am told that the reason they are under restrictions is due to them being under investigation by the Indian authorities. If there was no investigation there would be no restrictions and no need to go to Court for permission to fund the Club.

They've said it themselves in their submission to the Court. If the Court refused permission the club fails to meet its obligations, gets served with a HMRC winding up petition and goes bust. Their reputation is in tatters and 'investment' down the drain.

I'd substitute credit with 'bare minimum' required to keep the lights on. No different to Joe Bloggs being forced to find the cash to pay his mortgage, rent, council tax and utility bills. Don't pay them the lights go off and you lose your property.

[RoversClitheroe]

9 minutes ago, Ben-2000 said:

I fear that despite all the good work the Trust do they won't want to rock the boat or jeopardise their relationship with Waggott and co. He's a proven liar now, so hope I'm wrong.

 

I think it's down to the trust to put that pressure on, if they aren't going to do it, then I believe they aren't acting in the interests of the members.

[Ben-2000]

9 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

There has been very little criticism on Twitter apart from someone saying this is old news and they could not understand why it was released now.  It was not released because I am a lackey of the Club (I can assure you I am not) and it was not given to me to leak to deflect attention from the mess on the playing side.  It is purely factual information.

The ‘news’ is available openly and publicly, perhaps no one had spotted it.  The HMRC letter was dated April 2023 and the Court case was July 2023; this must have been a nightmare of a time for those at Ewood trying to balance the books.

I will explain the reason I put this out.  Firstly I believe the fan base should have a better knowledge of the Club’s financial predicament; if it was something told to me in confidence it would not have been released, as I said above it is in a public document.

Secondly the owners, whether fans like it or not, took the applications to the High Court at no doubt great expense.  They secured payments to Rovers and the HMRC, VAT, staff etc have all been paid.  Whether fans like it or not credit should be given to the owners for this.

The role of the Trust is to try and engage as a critical friend with the owners and their representatives whether they be the Venky’s, the Walker family or the Nolan sisters.  We will continue to try our very best to influence on behalf of our members.

We do not have secret meetings with the Club; if I or other Board members meet with the Club then the whole Trust Board are aware. Clearly we may receive confidential information from time to time - this will never be divulged by any Trust Board member.

 

Sounds like the club have well and truly got you guys on side. 

You may get lip service but you will never influence anything major at the club. That's not a criticism btw, it's just the way it is.

It's time for pressure, not friends. These people are neglecting our club and putting it at risk for future generations.

[arbitro]

10 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

There has been very little criticism on Twitter apart from someone saying this is old news and they could not understand why it was released now.  It was not released because I am a lackey of the Club (I can assure you I am not) and it was not given to me to leak to deflect attention from the mess on the playing side.  It is purely factual information.

The ‘news’ is available openly and publicly, perhaps no one had spotted it.  The HMRC letter was dated April 2023 and the Court case was July 2023; this must have been a nightmare of a time for those at Ewood trying to balance the books.

I will explain the reason I put this out.  Firstly I believe the fan base should have a better knowledge of the Club’s financial predicament; if it was something told to me in confidence it would not have been released, as I said above it is in a public document.

Secondly the owners, whether fans like it or not, took the applications to the High Court at no doubt great expense.  They secured payments to Rovers and the HMRC, VAT, staff etc have all been paid.  Whether fans like it or not credit should be given to the owners for this.

The role of the Trust is to try and engage as a critical friend with the owners and their representatives whether they be the Venky’s, the Walker family or the Nolan sisters.  We will continue to try our very best to influence on behalf of our members.

We do not have secret meetings with the Club; if I or other Board members meet with the Club then the whole Trust Board are aware. Clearly we may receive confidential information from time to time - this will never be divulged by any Trust Board member.

 

Thanks Mike. I agree with most of your post but I honestly think the highlighted bit is going to be a divisive thing to say. The people to blame for the whole mess Rovers are in are them and I will certainly not give them any credit for what appears to be something that, as owners is obligatory.

I have faith in what you are trying to achieve and wish you well in your end goal but I ask you to please keep comments like that private and then no one can feel aggrieved.

[glen9mullan]

16 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

There has been very little criticism on Twitter apart from someone saying this is old news and they could not understand why it was released now.  It was not released because I am a lackey of the Club (I can assure you I am not) and it was not given to me to leak to deflect attention from the mess on the playing side.  It is purely factual information.

The ‘news’ is available openly and publicly, perhaps no one had spotted it.  The HMRC letter was dated April 2023 and the Court case was July 2023; this must have been a nightmare of a time for those at Ewood trying to balance the books.

I will explain the reason I put this out.  Firstly I believe the fan base should have a better knowledge of the Club’s financial predicament; if it was something told to me in confidence it would not have been released, as I said above it is in a public document.

Secondly the owners, whether fans like it or not, took the applications to the High Court at no doubt great expense.  They secured payments to Rovers and the HMRC, VAT, staff etc have all been paid.  Whether fans like it or not credit should be given to the owners for this.

The role of the Trust is to try and engage as a critical friend with the owners and their representatives whether they be the Venky’s, the Walker family or the Nolan sisters.  We will continue to try our very best to influence on behalf of our members.

We do not have secret meetings with the Club; if I or other Board members meet with the Club then the whole Trust Board are aware. Clearly we may receive confidential information from time to time - this will never be divulged by any Trust Board member.

 

You have a lot of meetings , where can we access the minutes to each meeting please?

What is the next steps in reaction to the document from the Trust?

What is the next steps in general?

[J*B]

19 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

There has been very little criticism on Twitter apart from someone saying this is old news and they could not understand why it was released now.  It was not released because I am a lackey of the Club (I can assure you I am not) and it was not given to me to leak to deflect attention from the mess on the playing side.  It is purely factual information.

The ‘news’ is available openly and publicly, perhaps no one had spotted it.  The HMRC letter was dated April 2023 and the Court case was July 2023; this must have been a nightmare of a time for those at Ewood trying to balance the books.

I will explain the reason I put this out.  Firstly I believe the fan base should have a better knowledge of the Club’s financial predicament; if it was something told to me in confidence it would not have been released, as I said above it is in a public document.

Secondly the owners, whether fans like it or not, took the applications to the High Court at no doubt great expense.  They secured payments to Rovers and the HMRC, VAT, staff etc have all been paid.  Whether fans like it or not credit should be given to the owners for this.

The role of the Trust is to try and engage as a critical friend with the owners and their representatives whether they be the Venky’s, the Walker family or the Nolan sisters.  We will continue to try our very best to influence on behalf of our members.

We do not have secret meetings with the Club; if I or other Board members meet with the Club then the whole Trust Board are aware. Clearly we may receive confidential information from time to time - this will never be divulged by any Trust Board member.

 

Mike is there an issue with the external comms from The Trust? I'm a member and don't receive any updates over e-mail. Not a monthly report, quarterly update, yearly round up... nothing. Either i'm a one off or I suspect there's other members like myself who are contributing to The Trust and expect to see full breakdowns of all comms and meetings with the club, the website says

"By becoming a member, you can shape the ongoing direction of the Trust. All our members have an equal say in the running and direction of our club – one member, one vote. As well elections we are obligated to run, we aim to regularly canvas member opinions." 

As it stands I:

1) Haven't been asked for my equal say on the running and direction of the club

2) Haven't been asked to vote on anything

3) Haven't been asked for my opinion on anything

It makes me very uneasy as a member when I see things like "nightmare for those at Ewood trying to balance the books" i.e. Waggott and "credit should be given to the owners for this". It feels like the club are under pressure and suddenly - out of nowhere - information appears which could be argued paints them all in a good light. 

For context, the reason BRFCS sends @K-Hod to the Fans Forum meetings is i'm aware that I wouldn't be suitable for the type of meeting. K-Hod canvases comments from the forum and relays them to the club in a professional manner. This is in the T&Cs of all new BRFCS members. 

[Hasta]

23 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

Secondly the owners, whether fans like it or not, took the applications to the High Court at no doubt great expense.  They secured payments to Rovers and the HMRC, VAT, staff etc have all been paid.  Whether fans like it or not credit should be given to the owners for this.

Let's not forget the reason this is happening is because the owners have been fraudulently declaring money to be invested in the club which was being used for other non-Rovers related purposes. This has now given us huge cash flow problems.

So the credit you are giving them can be snatched quite quickly.

[jim mk2]

It's still very odd that no one spotted this story back in April or whenever, and that those who did, or knew about it, failed to make more of it. Do they know a potentially big story when they see one? 

[RoversClitheroe]

10 minutes ago, J*B said:

Mike is there an issue with the external comms from The Trust? I'm a member and don't receive any updates over e-mail. Not a monthly report, quarterly update, yearly round up... nothing. Either i'm a one off or I suspect there's other members like myself who are contributing to The Trust and expect to see full breakdowns of all comms and meetings with the club, the website says

"By becoming a member, you can shape the ongoing direction of the Trust. All our members have an equal say in the running and direction of our club – one member, one vote. As well elections we are obligated to run, we aim to regularly canvas member opinions." 

As it stands I:

1) Haven't been asked for my equal say on the running and direction of the club

2) Haven't been asked to vote on anything

3) Haven't been asked for my opinion on anything

It makes me very uneasy as a member when I see things like "nightmare for those at Ewood trying to balance the books" i.e. Waggott and "credit should be given to the owners for this". It feels like the club are under pressure and suddenly - out of nowhere - information appears which could be argued paints them all in a good light. 

For context, the reason BRFCS sends @K-Hod to the Fans Forum meetings is i'm aware that I wouldn't be suitable for the type of meeting. K-Hod canvases comments from the forum and relays them to the club in a professional manner. This is in the T&Cs of all new BRFCS members. 

Fantastic post, so far just feels like I'm a member to just hear how great our CEO is and how the owners should be given credit.

Only the Rovers Trust board know the ongoings of the meetings, what benefit is the trust giving to the members?

[J*B]

3 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Fantastic post, so far just feels like I'm a member to just hear how great our CEO is and how the owners should be given credit.

Only the Rovers Trust board know the ongoings of the meetings, what benefit is the trust giving to the members?

With all due respect, by design, surely the latter isn’t possible? It’s one person, one vote - which is right, by the way - but how can anyone vote if one person knows more than the other?

[Mercer]

All of this, yet again, IMO, simply underlines in huge bold capital letters that our owners and Waggott can neither be trusted nor believed. 

A desperately sad state of affairs.

Edited January 15 by Mercer

[jim mk2]

31 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

 

The role of the Trust is to try and engage as a critical friend with the owners and their representatives whether they be the Venky’s, the Walker family or the Nolan sisters.  We will continue to try our very best to influence on behalf of our members.

 

It would be interesting to know how you define "critical friend" of the club, whether you are more critical or more of a friend. The fact you praised the owners in the same post suggests it is the latter. This isn't to denigrate the valuable work that the Trust does, but there must come a point where you realise you're banging your head against a wall and the time has come to adopt a more critical and public approach.

[RoversClitheroe]

4 minutes ago, J*B said:

With all due respect, by design, surely the latter isn’t possible? It’s one person, one vote - which is right, by the way - but how can anyone vote if one person knows more than the other?

But then there's zero information syphoned down into the members?

If we aren't going to ask members there views on certain goings on at the club - polls "are we happy with Waggot" then what benefit is there of the trust currently, as they don't know the views of the members and what direction should be taken overall.

[ABBEY]

i have been a chundering in my mouth...

"credit to the owners"

make it stop please

[47er]

The Trust should have more members. It can't be a key pressure group unless its truly representative of the supporters.

It hardly costs a fortune to join. If you're not a member you can't reasonably complain about it.

[Mike Graham]

31 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Thanks Mike. I agree with most of your post but I honestly think the highlighted bit is going to be a divisive thing to say. The people to blame for the whole mess Rovers are in are them and I will certainly not give them any credit for what appears to be something that, as owners is obligatory.

I have faith in what you are trying to achieve and wish you well in your end goal but I ask you to please keep comments like that private and then no one can feel aggrieved.

Fair comment Tony.  
 

[Dreams of 1995]

I am sorry to all but once again I’m filing this as just another case of Venkys incompetence and not a smoking gun 

They paid the tax bill. This threat from HMRC was never a winding up order. They had issues releasing the funds, but that was resolved and the business has since spent money on non-critical issues, ie transfers and the such 

Unfortunately when you are run by careless people on shoe string budgets these things happen

[RevidgeBlue]

59 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

There has been very little criticism on Twitter apart from someone saying this is old news and they could not understand why it was released now.  It was not released because I am a lackey of the Club (I can assure you I am not) and it was not given to me to leak to deflect attention from the mess on the playing side.  It is purely factual information.

The ‘news’ is available openly and publicly, perhaps no one had spotted it.  The HMRC letter was dated April 2023 and the Court case was July 2023; this must have been a nightmare of a time for those at Ewood trying to balance the books.

I will explain the reason I put this out.  Firstly I believe the fan base should have a better knowledge of the Club’s financial predicament; if it was something told to me in confidence it would not have been released, as I said above it is in a public document.

Secondly the owners, whether fans like it or not, took the applications to the High Court at no doubt great expense.  They secured payments to Rovers and the HMRC, VAT, staff etc have all been paid.  Whether fans like it or not credit should be given to the owners for this.

The role of the Trust is to try and engage as a critical friend with the owners and their representatives whether they be the Venky’s, the Walker family or the Nolan sisters.  We will continue to try our very best to influence on behalf of our members.

We do not have secret meetings with the Club; if I or other Board members meet with the Club then the whole Trust Board are aware. Clearly we may receive confidential information from time to time - this will never be divulged by any Trust Board member.

 

Ah - I wrongly presumed you reproduced this info to show the owners  in a negative light.

So whilst everyone on here almost without exception views this as a fairly desperate state of affairs you're trying to frame it as something the owners should be given credit for?

[Mattyblue]

3 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I am sorry to all but once again I’m filing this as just another case of Venkys incompetence and not a smoking gun 

They paid the tax bill. This threat from HMRC was never a winding up order. They had issues releasing the funds, but that was resolved and the business has since spent money on non-critical issues, ie transfers and the such 

Unfortunately when you are run by careless people on shoe string budgets these things happen

But then surely if they are having to go to an Indian court every three months to release funds to pay basic obligations, I.e tax, then this kind of stuff will now become a regular occurrence?

Just need to give it up as a bad job as this stage, surely? Unfortunately we have the most stubborn, bizarre people possible as owners.

[Mike Graham]

52 minutes ago, glen9mullan said:

You have a lot of meetings , where can we access the minutes to each meeting please?

What is the next steps in reaction to the document from the Trust?

What is the next steps in general?

We send out an email newsletter most months.  This includes the notes of MoU meetings and Trust Board meetings.

Our next Board meeting is Tuesday next week.

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, Brian-Potter said:

I agree that going to court every few months is less than ideal and ultimately unsustainable in the long term (land very costly). However, this investigation and the associated restrictions from the Indian Authorities will at some point be concluded and come to an end.

We'll have to see if everything just goes through on the nod in future just because it has already done once. I'm not convinced but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

I agree with you on the paragraph above. It's the crucial bit of info that the fans groups need to find out. Are these restrictions open ended and indefinite or will they be coming to an end relatively soon. If the former then they should be selling and really Waggott as CEO of the Club should be advising them as such.

[oldjamfan1]

38 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

 

It would be interesting to know how you define "critical friend" of the club, whether you are more critical or more of a friend. The fact you praised the owners in the same post suggests it is the latter. This isn't to denigrate the valuable work that the Trust does, but there must come a point where you realise you're banging your head against a wall and the time has come to adopt a more critical and public approach.

Trust Board members have started this very conversation in the early hours of today Jim. My view is that it is time to focus on the 'critical' aspect of that description.