Venky’s v Indian Government (a) - 13/11/2024 - Re-Arranged Challenge Match

[Upside Down]

39 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Yes, Tim Donaghy.

We actually had the former investigator who wrote the book on the betting scandal in the NBA on our podcast a couple of years ago:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5MBsIQIQSwsjcEY8Jo8rgf?si=bfacb337868745a3

He continues to research and speak about match-fixing and sports gambling. It's a really interesting topic and he speaks about it all very well.

See above, I might not know as little about the topic as you'd like to make out.

I 100% believe that there is match-fixing in every sport on a weekly basis. I just remain highly skeptical of the idea that a team at the highest level of a sport would be throwing matches. Spot-fixing definitely, but games being thrown is a little bit harder for me to wrap my head around.

Match fixing in individual sports or at a much lower level? That I do buy.

Spot fixing as in x players will start the game. Y players will come on at this time of the game.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Upside Down said:

Spot fixing as in x players will start the game. Y players will come on at this time of the game.

No, as in getting players to agree to carry out very specific actions. It could be as simple as a booking. It could be the number of corners. Le Tissier has famously spoken about agreeing to have the first throw-in of a match occur within a specific period of time - although that was also spread betting so the time became an even more crucial factor.

The problem with this approach is that there isn't a ton of liquidity in those markets, so you'll have bet limits and any unusual betting patterns will be flagged - this includes across different bookmakers.

You cover that with illegal betting, but that comes with separate issues. 

[lraC]

5 hours ago, NeilInBristol said:

89 min: "Steve Kean for England," chant the home fans.

 

90+2 min: You've got to feel for those in the away end at White Hart Lane, who will have paid £30 to watch their team do this. What a miserable way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

 

 

The guy who wrote the article was rather cutting and injected plenty of humor. It was as though he had been primed that this one was fixed.

[Upside Down]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

No, as in getting players to agree to carry out very specific actions. It could be as simple as a booking. It could be the number of corners. Le Tissier has famously spoken about agreeing to have the first throw-in of a match occur within a specific period of time - although that was also spread betting so the time became an even more crucial factor.

The problem with this approach is that there isn't a ton of liquidity in those markets, so you'll have bet limits and any unusual betting patterns will be flagged - this includes across different bookmakers.

You cover that with illegal betting, but that comes with separate issues. 

So like not having a single shot on goal for an entire match then?

It's obviously not the prime reason for their ownership but it certainly can't be denied that things like that have happened here at this club.

[RoverDom]

It's more comforting to think that there is a big malicious ulterior motive behind it like a match fitting betting scandal. Because if that's true it can eventually unravel, venkys get punished, we're freed from our captors and justice is served. 

Because the alternative is that it's not, it's just incompetence and lower level book fiddling, the reign of terror is indefinite and we don't get justice. 

And for that reason I hope we are a money laundering outfit. 

[lraC]

4 hours ago, Upside Down said:

So like not having a single shot on goal for an entire match then?

It's obviously not the prime reason for their ownership but it certainly can't be denied that things like that have happened here at this club.

I wonder how often that happens? For a team not to have a single shot either on or off target, I would think is pretty rare.

If I get time later I might check the last fees days fixtures. 

[Upside Down]

28 minutes ago, lraC said:

I wonder how often that happens? For a team not to have a single shot either on or off target, I would think is pretty rare.

If I get time later I might check the last fees days fixtures. 

It was reported at the time that the year after we went down there were people within the club trying to engineer a double relegation. All to do with betting like.

[BigUts]

19 hours ago, Waggy76 said:

Wasn't Scott Dann very instrumental in Rovers losing at Bolton , towards the end of our last Prem season ? 

Then had a war of words with several Rovers fans ,getting back on the team coach ..

That's also the game , we pulled back to 2-1 (Wheater scored 2 for Bolton marked by Dann) and Kean in my opinion never went for the equaliser ..

 

Horrific.

I called it after their first corner that Dann was nowhere near Wheater and couldn't get off the ground.

The 2 corners after Wheater scored his respective headers. I genuinely don't think Dann was doing it purposely he was just shite.

[philipl]

Got to remember the West Brom game followed the Man U home game where we held on to the 84th minute at 0-0 and nothing got past Scott Danns.

Against West Brom, in the first 7 minutes, Danns missed THREE easy defensive headers and Orr was practically showing the West Brom winger where to cross from.

The first goal saw Danns go up for the ball then crane his neck to get his head out of the way of it giving West Brom a free header which deflected off Olsson and in.

Robinson and Nzonzi immediately confronted Orr who sheepishly walked away offering neither an apology or an argument.

Their second and third goals were equally created by Rovers errors and Modeste got himself sent off for a nothing reason in the 89th minute 12 minutes after coming on as a sub.  

[lraC]

30 minutes ago, philipl said:

Got to remember the West Brom game followed the Man U home game where we held on to the 84th minute at 0-0 and nothing got past Scott Danns.

Against West Brom, in the first 7 minutes, Danns missed THREE easy defensive headers and Orr was practically showing the West Brom winger where to cross from.

The first goal saw Danns go up for the ball then crane his neck to get his head out of the way of it giving West Brom a free header which deflected off Olsson and in.

Robinson and Nzonzi immediately confronted Orr who sheepishly walked away offering neither an apology or an argument.

Their second and third goals were equally created by Rovers errors and Modeste got himself sent off for a nothing reason in the 89th minute 12 minutes after coming on as a sub.  

I hated Orr already, but hate him even more now.

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Upside Down said:

It's obviously not the prime reason for their ownership but it certainly can't be denied that things like that have happened here at this club.

This is just far too strong of a statement. 

[tomphil]

Dann was a good player - not here odd game aside - but he was a tosser with an attitude just here as a stepping stone whilst earning massive wages.

There was something very odd about that signing but it was in an era of odd signings so it's nailed on to be iffy. We have to remember it started with the transfer fee quoted as millions to pacify Brum fans when in fact it was a lot less and made up massively in unlikely add ons.

Source - Nixon, when he was doing his 11 pm'ers courtesy of his foot in the Anderson camp.  Brum needed him off the wage bill pronto and he wasn't fit.  Came here simply to get fit and get gone.

Also more whiff, he was signed by Kean and when we were relegated the Snake then made him club captain which meant the relegation decrease in his wages was avoided due to the terms of his contract and being made captain, 35k pwk i believe.

Just another in the long line of piss takers.

[lraC]

Ok, just for fun, I have looked at the games on Saturday in all of the 4 top divisions and the number of shots per game/ team are below. There were none with 0 but a couple with 2 and 3.

It might be prove very little, but given at least what a few of us on here suspect, it might tell a tale. I suspect no shots at all, is a VERY rare occurence.

MU 15 Ev 23, Bo 32 S U 13, CP 21 L T 8, Wol 8 Ful 23, Arse 17 Bre 9

Car 15, Ips 8, Rov 8, Pl 21, Hull 8 Lei 15, Mill 12 B Ham 16, NoR 5 Rot, 2, PNE 5 Sto 13, QPR 10 Boro 7, South 21, Sun 13, Wat 19 Cov 8

Bar 11 Lin 17, B Pool 5 Ports 11, BR 6 Der 15, Bur 12 Pet 14, Cam 4 Nor 8, Char 17 Car 6, Exe 11 BWFC 13, Ox 17 Chel 10, PV 16, Shrews 8, Read 15 Wyc 10. Steve 12 Fleet 4, Wig 10, Ley 10.

Acc 16 Bra 17, Bar 8 Col 9, Donc 14 Crewe 9, For G 5 Wal 17, Gill 26, Tra 10, Harr 17 Cra 18, MKD 9 Sal 9, Mans 22 Swi 20, Morc 6 Wrex 20, Notts C 8 Wim 8, Stock 27 Newp 3, Sutt 9 Grims 20

[ABBEY]

This time tomorrow Rodney this time tomorrow 

[Mike E]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

This is just far too strong of a statement. 

Things potentially have happened like that though? Any club that employed DJ Campbell runs that risk 😅

[RevidgeBlue]

1 hour ago, lraC said:

Ok, just for fun, I have looked at the games on Saturday in all of the 4 top divisions and the number of shots per game/ team are below. There were none with 0 but a couple with 2 and 3.

It might be prove very little, but given at least what a few of us on here suspect, it might tell a tale. I suspect no shots at all, is a VERY rare occurence.

MU 15 Ev 23, Bo 32 S U 13, CP 21 L T 8, Wol 8 Ful 23, Arse 17 Bre 9

Car 15, Ips 8, Rov 8, Pl 21, Hull 8 Lei 15, Mill 12 B Ham 16, NoR 5 Rot, 2, PNE 5 Sto 13, QPR 10 Boro 7, South 21, Sun 13, Wat 19 Cov 8

Bar 11 Lin 17, B Pool 5 Ports 11, BR 6 Der 15, Bur 12 Pet 14, Cam 4 Nor 8, Char 17 Car 6, Exe 11 BWFC 13, Ox 17 Chel 10, PV 16, Shrews 8, Read 15 Wyc 10. Steve 12 Fleet 4, Wig 10, Ley 10.

Acc 16 Bra 17, Bar 8 Col 9, Donc 14 Crewe 9, For G 5 Wal 17, Gill 26, Tra 10, Harr 17 Cra 18, MKD 9 Sal 9, Mans 22 Swi 20, Morc 6 Wrex 20, Notts C 8 Wim 8, Stock 27 Newp 3, Sutt 9 Grims 20

In Devil's advocate mode, if you were trying to throw a game isn't it likely you'd chuck in a few off target efforts in an attempt to make it slightly less suspicious?

No shots on or off target strikes me as being completely outclassed and/or completely not arsed rather than deliberately trying to throw the game.

And looking at the respective line ups for that Spurs game I'd go for a combination of the first 2.

[lraC]

2 hours ago, philipl said:

Got to remember the West Brom game followed the Man U home game where we held on to the 84th minute at 0-0 and nothing got past Scott Danns.

Against West Brom, in the first 7 minutes, Danns missed THREE easy defensive headers and Orr was practically showing the West Brom winger where to cross from.

The first goal saw Danns go up for the ball then crane his neck to get his head out of the way of it giving West Brom a free header which deflected off Olsson and in.

Robinson and Nzonzi immediately confronted Orr who sheepishly walked away offering neither an apology or an argument.

Their second and third goals were equally created by Rovers errors and Modeste got himself sent off for a nothing reason in the 89th minute 12 minutes after coming on as a sub.  

Remember, we had paid up the contracts of several established players and then brought in, those wanted by the manager and his agent.

Granted a team game is harder to fix than an individual sport, but if we had 3 or 4 players all in on it, then it becomes a lot more likely.

Statements made about Ryan being on traction and other crazy things said, are coming sharply back into focus.

[Eddie]

7 minutes ago, lraC said:

Remember, we had paid up the contracts of several established players and then brought in, those wanted by the manager and his agent.

Granted a team game is harder to fix than an individual sport, but if we had 3 or 4 players all in on it, then it becomes a lot more likely.

Statements made about Ryan being on traction and other crazy things said, are coming sharply back into focus.

I think a very key point has to be made here.

Sometimes those dismissing conspiracy theories are labelled as Venky's defenders.

I'm not defending our owners. They've been awful and their decision-making, particularly in those early years, has been highly questionable, negligent, and stripped this club of any sense of professionalism and dignity.

However, I don't think they're involved in match-fixing. 

[lraC]

10 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

In Devil's advocate mode, if you were trying to throw a game isn't it likely you'd chuck in a few off target efforts in an attempt to make it slightly less suspicious?

No shots on or off target strikes me as being completely outclassed and/or completely not arsed rather than deliberately trying to throw the game.

And looking at the respective line ups for that Spurs game I'd go for a combination of the first 2.

I don't know if it is available on a legal or illegal market, but assuming total teams shots are, then it stacks up. Someone has suggested spot fixing, rather than throwing the game and that seems to make more sense to me. I am not saying, I am definitely correct, but when you look at what Philips has also posted about the WBA game, things are looking a touch suspicious in my opinion.

[Blow-in]

44 minutes ago, lraC said:

I don't know if it is available on a legal or illegal market, but assuming total teams shots are, then it stacks up. Someone has suggested spot fixing, rather than throwing the game and that seems to make more sense to me. I am not saying, I am definitely correct, but when you look at what Philips has also posted about the WBA game, things are looking a touch suspicious in my opinion.

So let's say it was fixed and 6 of the 11 players are all in on it. So you place 500k spread across a load of accounts on not a single shot being taken. What happens when one of the 5 players you have not covered take a speculative effort from 30 yards? 

 

I could believe in a general plan to bet on back to back relegations or something but no 0 shots.

The back to back relegation thing would also seem unlikely as we had a decent start to that season where we 6th when kean left? If we were trying to get relegated surely we would have started terribly?

[lraC]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

I think a very key point has to be made here.

Sometimes those dismissing conspiracy theories are labelled as Venky's defenders.

I'm not defending our owners. They've been awful and their decision-making, particularly in those early years, has been highly questionable, negligent, and stripped this club of any sense of professionalism and dignity.

However, I don't think they're involved in match-fixing. 

Hi Eddie,

You may well be right, but are you aware of one of the posters on here, who was threatened, his pregnant wife assaulted and him also being offered bribes to back off from doing the investigating he was prepared to do at the time?

Now that may all have been for some innocent reason, but, he was trying to get to the truth and all this happened to him. FACT.

Edited March 11 by lraC
Typo

[lraC]

1 minute ago, Blow-in said:

So let's say it was fixed and 6 of the 11 players are all in on it. So you place 500k spread across a load of accounts on not a single shot being taken. What happens when one of the 5 players you have not covered take a speculative effort from 30 yards? 

 

I could believe in a general plan to bet on back to back relegations or something but no 0 shots.

The back to back relegation thing would also seem unlikely as we had a decent start to that season where we 6th when kean left? If we were trying to get relegated surely we would have started terribly?

The no shots on target may not be what was being targeted and it may well be that there was no fixing going on at all.

Please read what PhilipL has had to say though on the WBA game and all I would ask, is keep an open mind.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

4 hours ago, Upside Down said:

It was reported at the time that the year after we went down there were people within the club trying to engineer a double relegation. All to do with betting like.

Anyone remember the Bonuses for Relegation?😵

[Ossydave]

18 hours ago, Eddie said:

Cleaned up meaning what?

A nice payday for your average person? Or something that would interest a billionaire?

The reality is that these aren't very liquid markets, so the exposure that comes with any sizeable bet is too much to be worth it - even for illegal bookmakers.

Why would you want to make a book where you are guaranteed to lose tons if a specific outcome comes in? Nevermind the fact that who in their right mind would take a big bet on a specific market like that without being suspicious of the fact that the bettor has more information than the bookmaker.

Could someone give me a decent tip on a next manager and I could have a nice day? Sure. I could spread 100-200 (absolute max) bets around across a few bookmakers and have a nice day, but we aren't talking about a payday that would interest the UHNW.

You said its not possible to make thousands on markets such as next manager bets, it is and people have.

That's all I was responding to, because it's factually incorrect.

[Blow-in]

27 minutes ago, lraC said:

The no shots on target may not be what was being targeted and it may well be that there was no fixing going on at all.

Please read what PhilipL has had to say though on the WBA game and all I would ask, is keep an open mind.

I spoke about that game as it is specifically called out regularly about match fixing. 

I do keep an open mind and I believe there was serious shady things going on but I believe it was to do with agents fees player contracts and the manager.

If I was looking to start making money from illegal betting I would not start with an investment of 50mil in a club. I'd just be gobbling one or two referees which would give you way more control for a lot less cash.