Venky’s v Indian Government (a) - 13/11/2024 - Re-Arranged Challenge Match

[lraC]

I am hoping that Venky's have been well and truly rumbled this time.

For those who don't know, I went in to see Waggott in November, after E Mailing him about the article in the Indian press about illegal payments being made by the owners.

I asked him about the court hearing carried out, prior to my meeting with him and he was full of bluster about how this was always going to be a formality and given that they had "set a precedent" he enthused that the meeting in March was just to rubber stamp the next tranche. He also disclosed that there was enough money in the bank, for the club to meet it's obligations until February.

One thing I have always had at the back of my mind, is that Venky's stated that they were protecting their investment, by sending these funds, which I guess is a backdoor way of saying that unless they are allowed to send further funds, their investment goes bump.

As we know, they are under deep scrutiny at the minute, so perhaps someone has had a close look at their investment and maybe decided that pumping £200m into it and finding it to be worth around a quarter of that amount (if that) means any further funds are highly unlikely to be protecting anything, in fact quite the opposite, the funds are simply diminishing almost instantly.

It is speculation on my part, but if the Indian authorities are scrutinising funds leaving the country, then maybe they want to know that it is a sound investment and perhaps they are beginning to realise it is far from sound and are on the verge of stopping any further funds being sent.

It is then either put the club up for sale, or administration, which may well happen anyway, between now and August.

 

[J*B]

7 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

 

Apologies, I think I may have jumped the gun on the above. Didn’t read Josh’s posts in full.

For every pound they have sent so far, they have had to guarantee with equivalent. But they can’t send money without permission. 

The case that is ongoing is not directly linked to Rovers or VLL, which probably goes a long way to explaining the silence from the club. If anyone at Rovers was even aware of how the case had gone (or hadn’t) before it became public record, I expect they’d have been forbidden from commenting on it.

I suppose now we will see what Venky’s appetite to keep funding is, as there will no doubt be ways around it. Without a No Objection Certificate, or a one off exemption, VENKATESHWARA HATCHERIES PRIVATE LIMITED can’t send remittance overseas. The purpose of this hearing wasn’t just to get that agreed, but it would’ve been one desired outcome.

I’m speculating here, but I don’t see why they couldn’t get money over from elsewhere, or apply for the certificate directly to the enforcement agency away from the ongoing court proceedings.

Thanks for the clarification. Feel like this should be pinned so we can all refer back to it. 

[steved]

I don't know whether to be overjoyed at this latest development or or seriously depressed.  On the one hand, it could hasten the end of Venkys' ownership of the club, either by sale or administration, followed by regeneration under new ownership.  On the other it could be the beginning of the end - receivership, followed by winding up, expulsion from the EFL, , sale of remaining assets to pay creditors and formal winding up.  Or, as I suspect, Venkys will stubbornly hold on for as long as they can, dragging the club down into League 2 via League 1 next season or the one after, until there's very little left for someone else to build on.

On balance, I think "f**ked" adequately sums it up.  Hope I'm wrong.

[Herbie6590]

29 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I think the value of the training ground is insignificant, really. The land is pretty much worthless to developers for the medium term. No way will it be able to be used for anything other than Rovers or some form of employment. One of the big criticisms of the brockhall development plan was that it just wasn't needed. The demand for housing just is not there in this area. When Rovers first took on Brockhall it was able to get planning permission in part because Rovers stressed it would continue to be a place of employment, as that is a condition of the land following its former use as a hospital / major employer.

If Venkys sell the club they will have to put the training ground back in control of BRFC

The whole training ground development was such a bizarre move looking back on it. It was never, ever going to be allowed, so why did they even try it?

It was allowed for FFP at the time - there was a looming rule change so they did it before the loophole was closed.

[tomphil]

33 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

I think there must be enough leverage now to make them sell. Its not sustainable. We need a combination of 

1. A credible buyer

2. Pressure from a UK authority to sell (hopefully the new regulator).

3. Fan alignment that they want the sale also

Reckon theres a way forward for for 2. and 3. - the issue is the buyer. Is there anyone out there? Could a fan consortium do it? How have other clubs in similar situations made it work?

Nobody in any official capacity cares though that's why the Govt simply has to be involved in this stuff as they've been posturing to do for decades.

Reading and Sheff Weds dragged through the mire recently and nothing is done.

Problem as i see it is the Indian nationalist got are fed up of vast amounts leaving their land whereas here in England this so called bastion of everything moral successive govts are quite happy to see billions in overseas money funnelled over here however it arrives.

Unless there is a direct link to terrorism/drugs etc then they couldn't care less.

Edited March 14 by tomphil

[Herbie6590]

28 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Would Venkys be able to sell the Club whilst the investigation is still live?

The club isn’t under investigation…so yes.

[Crimpshrine]

17 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Didn't they borrow some money from a source in this country at a high interest rate? I recall it being reported and I think the source was actually named. A link to Bolton comes to mind.

With the training ground as security

[Herbie6590]

17 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Didn't they borrow some money from a source in this country at a high interest rate? I recall it being reported and I think the source was actually named. A link to Bolton comes to mind.

Crossbaron Ltd

[Crimpshrine]

15 minutes ago, J*B said:

Thats not correct mate.

To send the money WITHOUT having to duplicate it as a bond they have to go through the court.

They can send as much money as they want right now if they want, but have to match it as a bond to the Government. 

I disagree. I don't think they can send money at all without permission. Even then it must be secured by the same amount held in India

[tomphil]

31 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Would Venkys be able to sell the Club whilst the investigation is still live?

I'm pretty sure they could as it seems to be the movement of funds from VH group to VHL that was supposed to fund the club but was used to buy personal property etc.

So the club itself not involved but i'm still amazed nobody wants to go through the VHL to BRFC transactions with a fine tooth comb but presumably that would be one for British authorities to take up.

[Theopinionatedone]

just been sent this:

When the football league issue the fixtures for next season, every club has to provide proof that it can financially complete the fixtures

Can we even do that now?

 

[J*B]

4 minutes ago, Crimpshrine said:

I disagree. I don't think they can send money at all without permission. Even then it must be secured by the same amount held in India

One for Duncan I suspect, its very hard to be clear. I promised myself after the last time I wouldn't become obsessed with trying to understand indian law, but here I am again. 

[JHRover]

42 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

The future of the Club hangs in the balance and the LT are back in 3 wise monkeys mode I see.

It's like the whole thing just isn't happening.

It's too complex and sensitive for the local media mob to get their teeth into.

They don't know what they are talking about on the subject and will be discouraged from covering it by the people at Rovers.

So rather than go digging and get some expert analysis of the situation from people who are up to speed on these things and risk upsetting Waggott instead they'll cover easy and comfortable ground which means tuning into the weekly presser to discuss which injuries might be back for the weekend.

As you say, clubs existence in question due to these funding issues, yet hardly anything from the club or local media. 

They're a disgrace the lot of them.

 

[steved]

5 minutes ago, Theopinionatedone said:

just been sent this:

When the football league issue the fixtures for next season, every club has to provide proof that it can financially complete the fixtures

Can we even do that now?

 

Could be a problem - the fixture list was published on 22nd June last year......

[lraC]

1 minute ago, JHRover said:

It's too complex and sensitive for the local media mob to get their teeth into.

They don't know what they are talking about on the subject and will be discouraged from covering it by the people at Rovers.

So rather than go digging and get some expert analysis of the situation from people who are up to speed on these things and risk upsetting Waggott instead they'll cover easy and comfortable ground which means tuning into the weekly presser to discuss which injuries might be back for the weekend.

As you say, clubs existence in question due to these funding issues, yet hardly anything from the club or local media. 

They're a disgrace the lot of them.

 

I am speaking to a client today around 3.00pm, who happens to me a journalist covering MCFC for one of the red tops.

He normally has the low down on things, so I will ask him if he knows anything and if there are any rumblings.

[Rogerb]

Don't see how the accountants can sign off the accounts at the end of this month.

Those players where rovers have an option to extend their contract for another twelve months this summer can take it that won't be happening.

[RevidgeBlue]

39 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

 

Apologies, I think I may have jumped the gun on the above. Didn’t read Josh’s posts in full.

For every pound they have sent so far, they have had to guarantee with equivalent. But they can’t send money without permission. 

The case that is ongoing is not directly linked to Rovers or VLL, which probably goes a long way to explaining the silence from the club. If anyone at Rovers was even aware of how the case had gone (or hadn’t) before it became public record, I expect they’d have been forbidden from commenting on it.

I suppose now we will see what Venky’s appetite to keep funding is, as there will no doubt be ways around it. Without a No Objection Certificate, or a one off exemption, VENKATESHWARA HATCHERIES PRIVATE LIMITED can’t send remittance overseas. The purpose of this hearing wasn’t just to get that agreed, but it would’ve been one desired outcome.

I’m speculating here, but I don’t see why they couldn’t get money over from elsewhere, or apply for the certificate directly to the enforcement agency away from the ongoing court proceedings.

So to summarise:

They currently can't send ANY money over without permission and if they do so it has to be matched by a security bond for an equivalent amount.

However it SEEMS as though there should be ways around the problem if they wanted to send money badly enough so are you insinuating that they might see these problems as somewhat convenient?

If that were the case, why bother going to Court at all? They could just do a Waggott, shrug their shoulders and say "We've done all we can."

[RoversClitheroe]

Hopefully they lose the case and fuck off along with Steve.

[roversfan99]

They dont want to send money badly enough. I suspect those expecting a Wharton/Raya funded summer spending spree even of a few millions were beyond naive.

The focus should solely be on Venkys, they have and always will be the issue of all of our problems. Focusing on Broughton or even someone as incompetent as Waggott is missing the point. And yet they still wont sell up so we will still suffer.

[bluebruce]

The only positive contribution Venkys were able to make to this club was to send us funding. If they can't even do that, they're precisely zero use to us, yet still the enormous cancerous liability they've always been. Surely even those who bizarrely wanted them to stay, and even Venkys themselves, must admit that now. They were going to go crawling to the Indian courts every 3 months or so it seems, but by the time the January one is dealt with there'll have been an additional 7 months passed. Utterly unsustainable, and we'd have to sell an Adam Wharton a season just to tread water in the same inadequate way we have been doing for years.

The only chant at Ewood now should be 'we want Venkys out' or variations on the theme.

Edited March 14 by bluebruce

[Crimpshrine]

2 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

So to summarise:

They currently can't send ANY money over without permission and if they do so it has to be matched by a security bond for an equivalent amount.

However it SEEMS as though there should be ways around the problem if they wanted to send money badly enough so are you insinuating that they might see these problems as somewhat convenient?

If that were the case, why bother going to Court at all? They could just do a Waggott, shrug their shoulders and say "We've done all we can."

They have had 9 or 10 million pounds worth of property siezed. They already have £11 million held by the Indian Government to cover the money they were allowed to send in November. The investigations are said to be at a nascent stage.

If they are seen to be bending any rules at all to send money out of India they will be jumped on by the Indian authorities.

They can borrow money against assets in this country as they have done previously, but I think the only way they will get significant funding to the club is via the Indian courts.

This means a long wait and no guarantee that permission will be granted anyway. I think the club will be told there is no Venky money until August at the earliest. We will need to generate our own income until then. When does the summer transfer window open ?

[Devon Rover]

So a regular court hearing that appears to have been vital for the flow of funds to pay wages and bills has been postponed twice, now, ending up scheduled for around seven months after it was due.

I'm struggling to see how this is not a terminal blow for our clubs ability to stay afloat. What am I missing?

I guess the best case scenario is they find a way to reroute sufficient cash to get through until the summer then sell Smod and Carter to keep the life support electricity running a bit longer?

[bluebruce]

14 minutes ago, Rogerb said:

Don't see how the accountants can sign off the accounts at the end of this month.

Those players where rovers have an option to extend their contract for another twelve months this summer can take it that won't be happening.

Didn't think about that. If we can't even offer Dolan the same terms we will lose him on a free rather than getting compensation.

Don't the accounts get signed off if they're accurate and not suspicious, rather than because the club is financially secure going forward?

[Theopinionatedone]

4 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

The only positive contribution Venkys were able to make to this club was to send us funding. If they can't even do that, they're precisely zero use to us, yet still the enormous cancerous liability they've always been. Surely even those who bizarrely wanted them to stay, and even Venkys themselves, must admit that now. They were going to go crawling to the Indian courts every 3 months or so it seems, but by the time the January one is dealt with there'll have been an additional 7 months passed. Utterly unsustainable, and we'd have to sell an Adam Wharton a season just to tread water in the same inadequate way we have been doing for years.

The only chant at Ewood now should be 'we want Venkys out' or variations on the theme.

Worst part is, chant anything anti venkys or anti waggott and either:

A - nobody joins in
B - Our own fans boo you and have a go at you

Most of our fanbase actively deserve this now and have blood on their hands

[bluebruce]

2 minutes ago, Devon Rover said:

 

I guess the best case scenario is they find a way to reroute sufficient cash to get through until the summer then sell Smod and Carter to keep the life support electricity running a bit longer?

That's the worst case scenario. The best case scenario is they sell the club. I'd take administration before the scenario above.