Venky’s v Indian Government (a) - 13/1/2025 - Re-Arranged Challenge Match

[martonrover]

48 minutes ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Yeah, so do I. However, when I read it in the Athletic article, it came across as dismissing a section of the fanbase, as a mere lunatic fringe.

Bertha Mason's Blue and White Army!

Yes, I must admit I was also surprised by the choice of words.

[Roverthechimp]

2 hours ago, ABBEY said:

Never forget the 33 rumours.

Big Sam 33/1 to be fired

Appleton next manager 33/1

Both had massive rumours beforehand of pune million mysterious bets. (Allegedly)

After last season - what odds would I have got betting on a Rovers relegation this season…

(ok - maybe even they aren’t stupid enough to do this whilst being investigated but… 🤫)

[superniko]

Regarding the betting posts previous…

Yeah the Indian market is big (declined a little recently with crack downs), but it certainly is not filtering into Championship football, and 100% is not filtering into shots on target or manager sackings / appointments which was quoted. 
Remember that someone is taking the other side of the bet, do you really think they’d be willing to lay large amounts on Rovers in a Championship match in India?

If 4 bets in row for £20 were placed on Big Sam next manager to go at 33/1 the price would be cut instantly to single digits, that’s a liability of £2.5k - no firm anywhere is ending up with a huge red book or payouts of millions on those markets, and they’re not even offered in India 

The majority of wagered money in India is cricket (see what turnover the exchange used to do on the IPL), the rest is lotteries / gaming.

I despite Venkys as much as the next poster, but the betting angle is a massive stretch.

Edited March 7 by superniko

[Upside Down]

2 hours ago, superniko said:

Regarding the betting posts previous…

Yeah the Indian market is big (declined a little recently with crack downs), but it certainly is not filtering into Championship football, and 100% is not filtering into shots on target or manager sackings / appointments which was quoted. 
Remember that someone is taking the other side of the bet, do you really think they’d be willing to lay large amounts on Rovers in a Championship match in India?

If 4 bets in row for £20 were placed on Big Sam next manager to go at 33/1 the price would be cut instantly to single digits, that’s a liability of £2.5k - no firm anywhere is ending up with a huge red book or payouts of millions on those markets, and they’re not even offered in India 

The majority of wagered money in India is cricket (see what turnover the exchange used to do on the IPL), the rest is lotteries / gaming.

I despite Venkys as much as the next poster, but the betting angle is a massive stretch.

Little and often.

Someone posted something on here a while back about money laundering in sports and football in particular.

Venkys ticked a lot of boxes.

Now they're under investigation for financial corruption.

I'll let you form your own conclusions.

[Eddie]

16 minutes ago, Upside Down said:

Little and often.

Someone posted something on here a while back about money laundering in sports and football in particular.

Venkys ticked a lot of boxes.

Now they're under investigation for financial corruption.

I'll let you form your own conclusions.

The point remains the same. It would have to be so tiny and so often.

I've bet on next manager markets and putting 100 pounds on either radically shifts the market or makes it close altogether.

You cannot make millions, hundreds of thousands, or even thousands betting on next manager markets easily.

Do you really think they're charging someone with placing 50 pound bets at dozens of bookies?

They might be dodgy, but they are billionaires. Hardly worth it.

 

 

[Upside Down]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

The point remains the same. It would have to be so tiny and so often.

I've bet on next manager markets and putting 100 pounds on either radically shifts the market or makes it close altogether.

You cannot make millions, hundreds of thousands, or even thousands betting on next manager markets easily.

Do you really think they're charging someone with placing 50 pound bets at dozens of bookies?

They might be dodgy, but they are billionaires. Hardly worth it.

 

 

I never actually said that they were running a betting scam.

It's certainly a possibility, and is a really good way to move around illicit finance.

Nothing has ever been quite right with them since the day they arrived. There's an explanation for everything that happens but every single time there's this 5-10% that just doesn't seem right.

Like when people keep saying it's just incompetence or disinterest. I am not denying that the Raos are incredibly thick and ignorant or that they don't really give a fuck about this club but there are always things that cantradict that.

They are totally incompetent yet have managed to build a multi billion dollar business. If they ran anything else as bad as Rovers they wouldn't have two pennies to rub together.

They are totally disinterested yet they constantly meddle in club matters, particularly transfers, and anything that costs more than 50p has to be signed off by them.

They've been here for 14 years and not once have they got anything right. Everything they do is to the club's detriment and we're heading towards a second deliberate relegation.

I don't know exactly what they're up to or what their motivations are but there have always been rumours and speculation about them being up to now good. They're now under investigation for financial fraud. That to me says that it wasn't all just crazy conspiracy theories and there could well be some meat on the bones of those accusations.

[ABBEY]

8 hours ago, superniko said:

Regarding the betting posts previous…

Yeah the Indian market is big (declined a little recently with crack downs), but it certainly is not filtering into Championship football, and 100% is not filtering into shots on target or manager sackings / appointments which was quoted. 
Remember that someone is taking the other side of the bet, do you really think they’d be willing to lay large amounts on Rovers in a Championship match in India?

If 4 bets in row for £20 were placed on Big Sam next manager to go at 33/1 the price would be cut instantly to single digits, that’s a liability of £2.5k - no firm anywhere is ending up with a huge red book or payouts of millions on those markets, and they’re not even offered in India 

The majority of wagered money in India is cricket (see what turnover the exchange used to do on the IPL), the rest is lotteries / gaming.

I despite Venkys as much as the next poster, but the betting angle is a massive stretch.

Those rumours ( no idea if true or not) where all over forums and sports phone ins at the time. both were 33/1 and massive bets . no idea where they came from but it always seemed a bit suss and made ears prick up.

[PeteJD13]

some of the theories on here are worse than QANON

[philipl]

No need to bet illegally in India when there are legal markets all over East Asia.

My personal opinion is that games were rigged in our Premier relegation season.

Why rig them?

[Roverthechimp]

17 hours ago, superniko said:

Regarding the betting posts previous…

Yeah the Indian market is big (declined a little recently with crack downs), but it certainly is not filtering into Championship football, and 100% is not filtering into shots on target or manager sackings / appointments which was quoted. 
Remember that someone is taking the other side of the bet, do you really think they’d be willing to lay large amounts on Rovers in a Championship match in India?

If 4 bets in row for £20 were placed on Big Sam next manager to go at 33/1 the price would be cut instantly to single digits, that’s a liability of £2.5k - no firm anywhere is ending up with a huge red book or payouts of millions on those markets, and they’re not even offered in India 

The majority of wagered money in India is cricket (see what turnover the exchange used to do on the IPL), the rest is lotteries / gaming.

I despite Venkys as much as the next poster, but the betting angle is a massive stretch.

The betting market has 2 angles - one is profit (anything even beyond evens given a known outcome is a ROI) and the other is to move money around without direct links.

Systematic betting fraud doesn’t need every transaction to get 33-1 - multiple bets all the way down to (and beyond) evens are winning bets if you know the outcome.

If money laundering is involved then even losing money deliberately as the bookie enters the picture…
 

Edited March 8 by Roverthechimp
What I wrote first didn’t make sense 🤣

[tomphil]

People in doubt this can have any sort of benefit need to read the many various articles out there based on fact not conspiracy.

That doesn't mean it's happening in our case but to just brush it off as nonsense or not worth it for anyone to do it is really naive.

[Eddie]

10 hours ago, Upside Down said:

It's certainly a possibility, and is a really good way to move around illicit finance.

But that's the thing. It really isn't a possibility. 

[Eddie]

3 hours ago, Roverthechimp said:

The betting market has 2 angles - one is profit (anything above evens given a known outcome is a ROI) and the other is to move money around without direct links.

Systematic betting fraud doesn’t need every transaction to get 33-1 - multiple bets all the way down to (and beyond) evens are winning bets if you know the outcome.

If money laundering is involved then even losing money deliberately as the bookie enters the picture…
 

Eh?

Even odds-on shots are profit if you know the outcome.

[lraC]

12 hours ago, Upside Down said:

Little and often.

Someone posted something on here a while back about money laundering in sports and football in particular.

Venkys ticked a lot of boxes.

Now they're under investigation for financial corruption.

I'll let you form your own conclusions.

The terminology used in the Indian press article was illegal payments and no allegedly in there either.

Illegal payments made by a company, that have had property seized and are now unable to send money overseas, without both an authority from the court and a bond, tells me and I am sure most others, that these people are simply not trusted.

So, we have the football authorities, the anti corruption bodies and probably the owners accountants, who are surely aware of this, sitting back and doing nothing.

When the proverbial hits they fan, I hope they all stand up and take notice.

[Roverthechimp]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Eh?

Even odds-on shots are profit if you know the outcome.

Yeah - i wrote what i actually meant further down in the post 🫣 (that even bets at evens or beyond are profitable)

[philipl]

I am not dismissing match fixing and betting.

The cash flows are so enormous and tax free that a decently funded fixer can make handsome returns.

The season we were relegated, the Hong Kong betting market alone was bigger than the Premier League and Champions League combined turnovers on its own. 

Lower leagues are particularly susceptible. The Malaysian and Maltese leagues are globally renowned to be fixed- yet another Malta Premier League player was jailed this week... The 2010/11 Nationwide League South stank to high heaven.

On the dark web in 2011/12, I found a list of that week's fixed games across Europe. There were 112 games but you had to subscribe to find out what the fix was in each case. I remember Wigan's Premier League fixture was on the list along with other English games going down to the 6th level. 

When I did a similar search two years later, English games were remarkably absent. There had clearly been a recognition of the problem and things done in such a way to lessen the problem without ruining the reputation.

Serie A never recovered from the first big Juventus scandal.

Edited March 9 by philipl

[philipl]

Incidentally, betting and fixing is not uniquely a football problem.

I visited the Economist offices to speak with an investigative reporter there. His boxing file was the same size as his football file and his cricket file was three times thicker than either football and boxing and in his opinion was by far the most corrupt sport.

[lraC]

2 hours ago, philipl said:

I am not dismissing match fixing and betting.

The cash flows are so enormous and tax free that a decently funded fixer can make handsome returns.

The season we were relegated, the Hong Kong betting market alone was bigger than the Premier League and Champions League combined turnovers on its own. 

Lower leagues are particularly susceptible. The Malaysian and Maltese leagues are globally renowned to be fixed- yet another Malta Premier League player was jailed this week... The 2010/11 Nationwide League South stank to high heaven.

On the dark web in 2011/12, I found a list of that week's fixed games across Europe. There were 112 games but you had to subscribe to find out what the fix was in each case. I remember Wigan's Premier League fixture was on the list along with other English games going down to the 6th level. 

When I did a similar search two years later, English games were remarkably absent. There had clearly been a recognition of the problem and things done in such a way to lessen the problem without ruining the reputation.

Serie A never recovered from the first big Juventus scandal.

I know people are reluctant to believe it, but it is possible for so much to have been made that pumping in millions per season, may still mean a tidy profit has been made.

People are asking why the owners are carrying on regardless when they seem to be getting nothing out of it. As we know a statement has been made this very week, to say they have no plans to sell and are here for the long haul.

Until is is proved otherwise my view will always be, that they are hiding something. 

[Ossydave]

On 08/03/2024 at 01:31, Eddie said:

 

You cannot make millions, hundreds of thousands, or even thousands betting on next manager markets easily.

 

 

You can make thousands if you're well informed, when Souness went to Newcastle I know a fair few who cleaned up.

[tomphil]

59 minutes ago, lraC said:

I know people are reluctant to believe it, but it is possible for so much to have been made that pumping in millions per season, may still mean a tidy profit has been made.

People are asking why the owners are carrying on regardless when they seem to be getting nothing out of it. As we know a statement has been made this very week, to say they have no plans to sell and are here for the long haul.

Until is is proved otherwise my view will always be, that they are hiding something. 

I still think the reason they carry the club now is because it sits comfortably in the VH group portfolio soaking up a lump of spare money some of which goes through the pipes elsewhere.  That has kind of been proven with what's going on now over there with the investigations etc.

Don't think that's why they bought it but that is what it became and as for betting i think if that goes on it's just a nice little perk from owning their plaything.

In the early days though i very much think some involved were in it for that very reason.

[Waggy76]

47 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

You can make thousands if you're well informed, when Souness went to Newcastle I know a fair few who cleaned up.

Very true 

[Roverthechimp]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

I still think the reason they carry the club now is because it sits comfortably in the VH group portfolio soaking up a lump of spare money some of which goes through the pipes elsewhere.  That has kind of been proven with what's going on now over there with the investigations etc.

Don't think that's why they bought it but that is what it became and as for betting i think if that goes on it's just a nice little perk from owning their plaything.

In the early days though i very much think some involved were in it for that very reason.

Nailed it - didn’t have to be Venky’s that benefited from any dodgy betting. But they may have facilitated it - knowingly or not they would still be seen to be culpable.

Far fetched? Being involved in match fixing and dodgy betting whilst ridiculous amounts are spent on wages and agents fees is still not as unbelievable as appointing K@#* and Coyle

As for the whole Shaw situation 🥳

[Moptop1]

One day something will come to light. Then the house of cards will fall.

Then watch them and all involved crumble. 

I hope that day comes sooner than later and we can rebuild some sort of normality as a Club.

[DE.]

When Spurs beat us 2-0 in April 2012 I don't think I've ever seen a match where a team was less obvious about not wanting to win. We played that match like a training game. Even the pundits were gobsmacked at how lifeless our performance was. I'm not suggesting it was fixed, but for whatever reason our team had no desire whatsoever to get anything out of that game, despite the fact we needed every possible point to survive. 

[tomphil]

5 hours ago, Moptop1 said:

One day something will come to light. Then the house of cards will fall.

Then watch them and all involved crumble. 

I hope that day comes sooner than later and we can rebuild some sort of normality as a Club.

Well i've been saying that for a decade and something finally did in terms of the funds being used for houses and pop stars instead of the club.

I'm certain there is loads more but that will be well buried now and nobody will investigate it anyway this has only come to light because of a miffed govt in India.  They've only scratched the surface and will only be interested in anything that looks like they've been evading tax so it'll probably blow over eventually.

Then we'll be left with much reduced funding due to the 20% levy so league 1 we are coming whether it's now or in the near future.