Pep and the EFL

[JohnD]

Hope this isn't behind the paywall

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b3e01fac-69e6-11ee-853b-c0bf92ce36b1?shareToken=f48356a420b77baf9b27bb98a196c7a8

[AllRoverAsia]

I stopped paying attention at the mention of Russell Martin.

The pep effect in the efl

https://www.theguardian.com/football/when-saturday-comes-blog/2023/jan/18/lower-league-football-premier-league-pyramid

I am still searching for a website that has stats for how many goals conceded are as a direct result of short passing by keepers and defenders in and around their own pen area. It's appears to be somewhat suppressed.

Edited October 15, 2023 by AllRoverAsia

[Upside Down]

"The number of aerial duels in the average match has fallen. Goalkeepers are playing more short passes, and kicking it long less and less. Direct speed, a measure of how quickly teams move up the pitch, is in decline. Pass completion is at its height, and so too is the number of passes in the average spell of possession. "

- Yes, and it's so fucking boring and many times ineffective.

Watch a premier league game from the late 90s or early 2000s and tell me it isn't far more entertaining than the shit they serve up today. Yes some games were absolutely awful but at least teams back then played to their own strengths and the players were allowed the freedom to express themselves.

Football is a simple game. When you have the ball in your own box and you are under pressure, get it fucking cleared. Unless you are classic Brasil or 09 era Barcelona then you aren't good enough to meddle about in that situation.

I am with @AllRoverAsia, give us the stats for goals conceded from fucking about in your own box.

[arbitro]

It's risk versus reward for me and risk wins hands down. I can't remember a goal scored in the EFL which came as a result of 'playing out from the back'. I watched a NWCL game yesterday and both teams were trying i it when players clearly weren't capable of or had anywhere near the skill level. The most stupid, irritating pass in football is the straight ball from the keeper to a team mate who is facing him with an opponent pressing. Think Travis against Nobbers at home last season.

[Oldgregg86]

It’s the lack of expression and individuality that’s suffered the most. It’s like watching robots play chess

[Mattyblue]

Those were the days

https://x.com/bryansgunn/status/1713448693280440366?s=46&t=0qpJAzFbB4pruhsuQZIcKg

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Two of my favourite Rovers sides were based on actual wingers who hugged the touchline - one actually won the Premiership. I struggle to think of a team these days that plays with proper wingers - left footers on the left wing etc.

Having said all that - amongst the mindless passing about at the back - Rovers have scored some exceptional team goals under JDT.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

49 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Those were the days

https://x.com/bryansgunn/status/1713448693280440366?s=46&t=0qpJAzFbB4pruhsuQZIcKg

I still remember heading one of those kicks back on a snow covered pitch with an icy old style ball. I was playing at left back and I saw stars ! 

[joey_big_nose]

It is surprising given Luton got promoted last season on a tiny budget by being direct that very few teams are trying that approach. Theres obviously success to be had with it if you have a couple of  old school centre forwards.

For what its worth while Rovers are playing out from the back we do get it forward very quickly. Less "possession for possessions sake"  than previous iterations, as shown by the number of goals for and against this season.

[rigger]

2 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

It is surprising given Luton got promoted last season on a tiny budget by being direct that very few teams are trying that approach. Theres obviously success to be had with it if you have a couple of  old school centre forwards.

For what its worth while Rovers are playing out from the back we do get it forward very quickly. Less "possession for possessions sake"  than previous iterations, as shown by the number of goals for and against this season.

I miss the days when goal-keepers kept goal,defenders defended, attackers attacked, and mid-fielders did what they were good at.

[simongarnerisgod]

i wonder how long it will be before a coach looks at the stats and finds out how many goals are given away by clumsy centre backs trying to pass it out from the back,i suggest it`s already a lot,the next manager who decides to lump it out from the back,he`ll become the new "game changer"😃

[chaddyrovers]

no head coach or manager is force to copy Pep or the Cruyff way. They can each select to play their own way and play to the strengths of the players they have. Luton have shown this. 

[Blow-in]

4 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

no head coach or manager is force to copy Pep or the Cruyff way. They can each select to play their own way and play to the strengths of the players they have. Luton have shown this. 

Except, a lot of Blackburn fans couldn't wait to get rid of Big Sam because of the way he played. Everton another club that want rid of managers for no "playing the right way" there is a cultish attitude in football. 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

11 hours ago, Blow-in said:

Except, a lot of Blackburn fans couldn't wait to get rid of Big Sam because of the way he played. Everton another club that want rid of managers for no "playing the right way" there is a cultish attitude in football. 

 

The fans you mention were obviously tired of playing in the Premier League and yearned to return to the good old days of away trips to Barnsley and Huddersfield.

[Armchair supporter supremo]

A lot of teams in European leagues where playing this (boring way) decades ago as standard, it's nothing new at all. 'pep' is just a total egotist that thinks he's reinvented the wheel, Much like Mourhino back in his Chelsea peak days when he had them playing in a very particular way that many clubs tried to copy until the strategy got sussed out by oppo mamagers (as all tactics do in the end) 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Armchair supporter supremo

[arbitro]

The recent law change has heightened the playing out from the back increase we have seen. Up until three or four seasons ago the ball had to leave the penalty area from goal kicks but the change allowed players of the team with the goal kick to stay inside the area whilst opponents had to stay outside. Prior to this I guess most clubs considered it too risky but now the extra few seconds they have gives them a chance to try and pick a pass. 

[phili]

I would love to see what a proper 4-4-2 team could do with 2 fast wingers and 2 good Forwards who are not afraid to attack the ball, against today's sides. We seem to be losing a lot out of the game especially with young player development with these new rigid system approaches.

I am sure a Duff, Gillespie, Ripley etc would never come through now, they would have the individuality drilled out of them. I don't even think we produce good quality strikers anymore through youth teams.

[simongarnerisgod]

39 minutes ago, phili said:

I would love to see what a proper 4-4-2 team could do with 2 fast wingers and 2 good Forwards who are not afraid to attack the ball, against today's sides. We seem to be losing a lot out of the game especially with young player development with these new rigid system approaches.

I am sure a Duff, Gillespie, Ripley etc would never come through now, they would have the individuality drilled out of them. I don't even think we produce good quality strikers anymore through youth teams.

im`e all for that,if you are getting overrun then have the second striker drop back into midfield,it`s simple and effective,football is supposed to be simple game is`nt it

[Oldgregg86]

1 hour ago, phili said:

I would love to see what a proper 4-4-2 team could do with 2 fast wingers and 2 good Forwards who are not afraid to attack the ball, against today's sides. We seem to be losing a lot out of the game especially with young player development with these new rigid system approaches.

I am sure a Duff, Gillespie, Ripley etc would never come through now, they would have the individuality drilled out of them. I don't even think we produce good quality strikers anymore through youth teams.

Nobody is producing good strikers anymore , you can count on two hands the good ones 

[rigger]

25 minutes ago, simongarnerisgod said:

im`e all for that,if you are getting overrun then have the second striker drop back into midfield,it`s simple and effective,football is supposed to be simple game is`nt it

Wouldn't you then have the striker who dropped back, playing out of position. Why not start with three central midfield players ?

Win the mid-field battle and you usually win the game.

[simongarnerisgod]

29 minutes ago, rigger said:

Wouldn't you then have the striker who dropped back, playing out of position. Why not start with three central midfield players ?

Win the mid-field battle and you usually win the game.

the 2nd striker is usually the creative one who also can also fill in midfield when under the cosh,when the game is going your way or pretty even then he slots back in attack,having two strikers is a no brainer imo,imagine how many goals jordan rhodes or gestede would have got if dack had been around to partner one of them,i always thought dunny was prime for that role as well,though souness obviously disagreed!!!

[rigger]

27 minutes ago, simongarnerisgod said:

the 2nd striker is usually the creative one who also can also fill in midfield when under the cosh,when the game is going your way or pretty even then he slots back in attack,having two strikers is a no brainer imo,imagine how many goals jordan rhodes or gestede would have got if dack had been around to partner one of them,i always thought dunny was prime for that role as well,though souness obviously disagreed!!!

probably not many more than they actually scored. But again that is a hypothetical question.

[Upside Down]

Carrying on from the discussion in the Cardiff thread, but it fits in here with what we've been talking about.

Along with the boring shit passing has come all this bullshit hipster jargon used to describe positions on the pitch. For the most part these are bullshit terms coined by people who are trying to make themselves seem more intelligent than they actually are.

This gets swallowed whole by bang average coaches and managers that want to seem like they are better than they are. Russell Martin is a prime example, yet I don't know if he subscribes to the jargon but it wouldn't surprise me.

Then there's using numbers to describe positions. 30 years after we stopped using 1-11.

Number 9 and Number 10 have always been used when describing strikers but I always remember number 6 being a defender and 4 being midfield.

Bullshit talking points to match the bullshit boring football.

Give me 442 blood and thunder any day of the week.

[simongarnerisgod]

1 hour ago, Upside Down said:

Give me 442 blood and thunder any day of the week

at least anyone of a certain age can remember fondly those big matches,standing on a packed terrace,watching through pouring rain,endless chanting and shouting,two sides going at it full on,hard but fair and a ref who let the game flow and going absolutely mental when we scored😊

[Upside Down]

10 hours ago, simongarnerisgod said:

at least anyone of a certain age can remember fondly those big matches,standing on a packed terrace,watching through pouring rain,endless chanting and shouting,two sides going at it full on,hard but fair and a ref who let the game flow and going absolutely mental when we scored😊

Nah fuck that. It's way better waiting around for 10 minutes to see whether VAR will allow the goal.