England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[Upside Down]

8 hours ago, M_B said:

He's the best since Alf Ramsay. 

In terms of record in the job, yes.

In terms of people who could and should have been given the job, he's not even in the top 500.

Edited June 9 by Upside Down

[Eddie]

47 minutes ago, Upside Down said:

he's not even in the top 500.

Hard to take this even remotely seriously. 

[Upside Down]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Hard to take this even remotely seriously. 

You think that Southgate is in the top 500 managers of the last 58 years?

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Upside Down said:

You think that Southgate is in the top 500 managers of the last 58 years?

Top 500 potential England managers? Yes, absolutely. 

[Upside Down]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Top 500 potential England managers? Yes, absolutely. 

Hard to take this even remotely seriously

Edited June 10 by Upside Down

[Norbert Rassragr]

Southgate has done a lot better than I expected, but he lacks that something winners like Ferguson, Ancelloti or Pep have. And other managers have sussed him out. They know he is risk averse and lacking in tactical nous.

[Bohinen1983]

I can't be the only one that thinks England are not that good..

Keepers: Dodgy

Defence, fairly dodgy too..  Only one natural left back that's coming back from injury..

Rice is very good,  Wharton and Gallagher are also good players, as is Mainoo..

We have an abundance of talent that all plays in the same position: Palmer, Bellingham, Foden all like to play as a 10..

Kane likes to drop into the 10 too.. 

Saka likes to cut inside too- very congested area.

I really think we're massively over-rated, just like previous years. 

I'd like to see Eze and Saka out wide.  Perhaps Wharton in CM too- passes forward.     

Can Foden play a bit deeper with Bellingham in the 10 role? I think that could work well working off Kane...    

So perhap:

Pickford
Walker
Stones
Trippier
Gomez
Rice
Foden
Saka
Eze
Bellingham
Kane

To me that's not a great side- France with Zidane,  Brazil, Italy, Germany, Spain- they were world class sides.. This is another over-hyped false dawn.. 

Dodgy defence, negative manager and players that believe their own hype. I think we'll be lucky to get to the QF's let alone win it.

 

Edited June 10 by Bohinen1983

[Mashed Potatoes]

19 minutes ago, Bohinen1983 said:

I can't be the only one that thinks England are not that good..

Keepers: Dodgy

Defence, fairly dodgy too..  Only one natural left back that's coming back from injury..

Rice is very good,  Wharton and Gallagher are also good players, as is Mainoo..

We have an abundance of talent that all plays in the same position: Palmer, Bellingham, Foden all like to play as a 10..

Kane likes to drop into the 10 too.. 

Saka likes to cut inside too- very congested area.

I really think we're massively over-rated, just like previous years. 

I'd like to see Eze and Saka out wide.  Perhaps Wharton in CM too- passes forward.     

Can Foden play a bit deeper with Bellingham in the 10 role? I think that could work well working off Kane...    

So perhap:

Pickford
Walker
Stones
Trippier
Gomez
Rice
Wharton
Foden
Saka
Eze
Bellingham
Kane

To me that's not a great side- France with Zidane,  Brazil, Italy, Germany, Spain- they were world class sides.. This is another over-hyped false dawn.. 

Dodgy defence, negative manager and players that believe their own hype. I think we'll be lucky to get to the QF's let alone win it.

 

We should do well with that team - it's got 12 players in it.

[Bohinen1983]

ahhaha, so it has! I still think they'd struggle to get past the QF's

[RoverDom]

The squad has the premier league player of the season. La liga player of the season and bundesliga top scorer. Of the Top scorers in the PL 6 of the top 11 are English (I was looking at the top 10 but there's 3 tied in 9th). 

I wouldn't say we're overhyped - but defence as with every other tournament is a concern. 

[Mattyblue]

Unbalanced due to the defence. But then again it’s not a vintage era for European sides, France aside.

[riverholmes]

1 hour ago, RoverDom said:

The squad has the premier league player of the season. La liga player of the season and bundesliga top scorer. Of the Top scorers in the PL 6 of the top 11 are English (I was looking at the top 10 but there's 3 tied in 9th). 

I wouldn't say we're overhyped - but defence as with every other tournament is a concern. 

An issue might be with leadership on the pitch to organise the team, especially, at pressure moments. Kane is the captain and there's experienced club captains in the side in Walker and Trippier, if he plays, but I don't think there are many outstanding leaders there. It might not be necessary if the players click and the opposition are simply blown away by the ability of the star players. On the other hand, if things do get difficult, Southgate and his management will have to step up. This might especially be the case considering some of the players, especially, from City and Arsenal are so used to looking to the touchline for instruction.

Edited June 10 by riverholmes

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Upside Down said:

Hard to take this even remotely seriously

Yeah, because we're only talking about a manager who's been in charge for 3 major tournaments and made it to the QF, SF, and final.

Let's start your list off by removing any manager who doesn't speak fluent English. Then remove managers who would have never taken the job in the first place (Ferguson was never going to be England manager). Oh, and then remove any managers who have disgraced themselves or would have disgraced the job (for example, remove Allardyce from your list after what he did).

If you can then get to 500 managers, send me the list and I'll send you 500 pounds. 

[Mike E]

14 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Yeah, because we're only talking about a manager who's been in charge for 3 major tournaments and made it to the QF, SF, and final.

Let's start your list off by removing any manager who doesn't speak fluent English. Then remove managers who would have never taken the job in the first place (Ferguson was never going to be England manager). Oh, and then remove any managers who have disgraced themselves or would have disgraced the job (for example, remove Allardyce from your list after what he did).

If you can then get to 500 managers, send me the list and I'll send you 500 pounds. 

Not a fair comment. Capello didn’t speak fluent English.

[Admiral Nelsen]

35 minutes ago, Bohinen1983 said:

I can't be the only one that thinks England are not that good..

I really think we're massively over-rated, just like previous years. 


To me that's not a great side- France with Zidane,  Brazil, Italy, Germany, Spain- they were world class sides.. This is another over-hyped false dawn.. 

 

 

I don't agree that the England team of the 00s were overrated. Quite a lot of time has passed now and we can look more dispassionately with a fair amount of hindsight, and there's no getting away from that side being comprised mostly of really excellent players. Gerrard, Scholes, A. Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Rooney, Owen at the start of the decade. Beckham. They all shone in Champions League teams (Owen aside), so they weren't just overhyped by playing in a substandard league. 

 

They underperformed - no question - but even there I'm a bit of Sven apologist. 

2002 - knocked out by a freak goal against the last great Brazil side and eventual winners.

2004 - knocked out on pens to the hosts and eventual finalists after having a perfectly good winning goal disallowed. 

2006 - knocked out on pens after playing an hour with 10 men, and still looking the stronger side as I recall.

 

An unfortunate run of tournaments, which preceded a real downturn in the quality of the squad until arguably the last few years. It goes to show the importance of striking whilst the iron is hot, because you're not always going to have very strong sides. The difference between England and the more successful nations is that when Germany, France, Italy & Spain have produced a great squad of players, they have done a better job than us of making it count. 

[Eddie]

7 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Not a fair comment. Capello didn’t speak fluent English.

and he didn't do very well...

[Mike E]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

and he didn't do very well...

Ah, I misread, gotcha

[Mike E]

3 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

I don't agree that the England team of the 00s were overrated. Quite a lot of time has passed now and we can look more dispassionately with a fair amount of hindsight, and there's no getting away from that side being comprised mostly of really excellent players. Gerrard, Scholes, A. Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Rooney, Owen at the start of the decade. Beckham. They all shone in Champions League teams (Owen aside), so they weren't just overhyped by playing in a substandard league. 

 

They underperformed - no question - but even there I'm a bit of Sven apologist. 

2002 - knocked out by a freak goal against the last great Brazil side and eventual winners.

2004 - knocked out on pens to the hosts and eventual finalists after having a perfectly good winning goal disallowed. 

2006 - knocked out on pens after playing an hour with 10 men, and still looking the stronger side as I recall.

 

An unfortunate run of tournaments, which preceded a real downturn in the quality of the squad until arguably the last few years. It goes to show the importance of striking whilst the iron is hot, because you're not always going to have very strong sides. The difference between England and the more successful nations is that when Germany, France, Italy & Spain have produced a great squad of players, they have done a better job than us of making it count. 

I’d even add 2010 and THAT disallowed goal from Lampard.

[Eddie]

Just now, Mike E said:

Ah, I misread, gotcha

I do think that would change slightly now because of the prevalence of foreign managers in the Premier League and the fact that current players will be so much more used to dealing with managers and coaches who are not totally fluent English speakers, but that's only been the case for the last 5 years or so. 

[Mattyblue]

The ‘golden generation’ were individually quality players but just did not gel as a group, club cliques all over the place and/or mismanaged, I.e Scholes.

One thing Southgate has excelled at is creating a ‘club like’ mentality.

[Mike E]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

The ‘golden generation’ were individually quality players but just did not gel as a group, club cliques all over the place and/or mismanaged, I.e Scholes.

One thing Southgate has excelled at is creating a ‘club like’ mentality.

I do think he just happened to be the perfect man at THAT time, just as a new ‘crop’ was coming up. Created a bit of a siege mentality, in a group that had no ties to the failures of England’s past.

[Blow-in]

2 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

We should do well with that team - it's got 12 players in it.

Same old England, always cheating 😂

[Admiral Nelsen]

6 minutes ago, Mike E said:

I’d even add 2010 and THAT disallowed goal from Lampard.

I was thinking of doing the same, but decided against it because I do think we were on the decline as a squad there. The key players were just passing their peak and some of the players coming in were slightly below par for me. 

 

You can definitely add it to the list of things going against us at major tournaments that were beyond our control though. 

 

Turning to England now, one of the things I find strangest about Southgate is how his popularity is built on his worst tournament. The last World Cup was fine, never really looked in trouble until we lost a tight game against probably the best team, even if they lost final. The previous Euros final was not his finest hour, but we still lost on pens in a final after beating Germany en route. No shame in that. 

 

But it's ridiculous that so many people still see that first World Cup as a relative success. We lost to Belgium (twice), scraped past Tunisia with a late winner, couldn't beat Colombia over 120 mins and obviously were outplayed by Croatia who themselves had been taken all the way to penalties in their last two games by Russia and Denmark. We had a ridiculously fortunate draw in that tournament and still didn't leave it with a winning record if you count the Colombia game as a draw. 

[speeeeeeedie]

33 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

I don't agree that the England team of the 00s were overrated. Quite a lot of time has passed now and we can look more dispassionately with a fair amount of hindsight, and there's no getting away from that side being comprised mostly of really excellent players. Gerrard, Scholes, A. Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Rooney, Owen at the start of the decade. Beckham. They all shone in Champions League teams (Owen aside), so they weren't just overhyped by playing in a substandard league. 

 

They underperformed - no question - but even there I'm a bit of Sven apologist. 

2002 - knocked out by a freak goal against the last great Brazil side and eventual winners.

2004 - knocked out on pens to the hosts and eventual finalists after having a perfectly good winning goal disallowed. 

2006 - knocked out on pens after playing an hour with 10 men, and still looking the stronger side as I recall.

 

An unfortunate run of tournaments, which preceded a real downturn in the quality of the squad until arguably the last few years. It goes to show the importance of striking whilst the iron is hot, because you're not always going to have very strong sides. The difference between England and the more successful nations is that when Germany, France, Italy & Spain have produced a great squad of players, they have done a better job than us of making it count. 

England did have some bad luck as you highlighted. However, as good as some of the players were and ignoring Greece's 2004 fluke win Sven's England teams were still a level below the teams who won trophies. 

The 2002 Brazil team had Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu, and Roberto Carlos. 

France 2004 and 2006 still had Zidane, Henry, Makelele, Thuram, and more.

Italy in 2006 - Del Piero, Totti, Buffon, Cannavaro, Pirlo. 

Sven's teams had 3 world class players - Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, and Michael Owen. Unfortunately, only Ashley Cole was consistent. Rooney was a bit too young (see 2006 sending off) and Owen was a shadow of his former self.

 

Edited June 10 by speeeeeeedie

[oneandycrawford]

3 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

England did have some bad luck as you highlighted. However, as good as some of the players were and ignoring Greece's 2004 fluke win Sven's England teams were still a level below the teams who won trophies. 

The 2002 Brazil team had Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu, and Roberto Carlos. 

France 2004 and 2006 still had Zidane, Henry, Makelele, Thuram, and more.

Italy in 2006 - Del Piero, Totti, Buffon, Cannavaro, Pirlo. 

Sven's teams had 3 world class players - Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney, and Michael Owen. Unfortunately, only Ashley Cole was consistent. Rooney was a bit too young (see 2006 sending off) and Owen was a shadow of his former self.

 

Scholes was also world-class - as evident from his reputation amongst Europe's top players. However Sven never seemed to know how to use him so he couldn't show how good he was.