England - Lee Carsley Takes The Reins

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

11 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Wow, those ratings are very harsh imo, no way Trippier, Rice and Bellingham get 5s?? We weren't fabulous but definitely deserved the win and had a great first half.

I agreed with the Rice mark. I feel he’s paying the price for a long hard season at Arsenal. He’s just that split second behind where he used to be. Trippier will never shine at left back, he’s not got the tools to play there. Bellingham was pretty quiet and lost the ball several times by over elaboration.

[joey_big_nose]

6 minutes ago, Mike E said:

If we win this, where does Southgate sit?

1. Still not as good as Sir Alf, he won a World Cup.

2. Better than Sir Alf, he’s won a major international tournament AND has a better record of getting to the latter stages.

3. Right alongside Sir Alf.

Either way, a knighthood can’t be far away.

If we win it (big if) the best england manager imo. Hes had luck with the draws, but until this tournament did not actually have that many good players established at the top level.

That he has the record he has (more successful in knockout than every manager 1967 to 2018 put together, more finals than all england managers put together etc) whilst also not having that great a team till recently would put him as the best imo as long as he can add trophy. But he has to win it against a brilliant Spanish side to achieve that status.

[Admiral Nelsen]

10 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

The talk of 'lucky draws' is all pointless. Just meaningless, crap pub chat that looks to play down a very successful England manager. We have consistently made the knock out finals of every tournament he has been in, with now back to back Final games in the Euros. People shouting about lucky draws are just sucking the enjoyment out of it for themselves

 

It's not the sort of thing to dwell on after such a great night, but of course it's not meaningless! We've spent decades calling various managers failures for getting knocked out by top Brazilian, Argentinian, Portuguese or German teams, often in games which themselves were very tight. Not having to play teams of the same standard is obviously a massive caveat if we're saying that Southgate's record is better than Sven's, for instance. 

 

If we win the thing by beating the Netherlands and Spain, then the thing becomes a bit more of a pointless discussion imo. 

[K-Hod]

Thought we played well last night, tbh. 
Don’t think it was a penalty and I’d have been seething if I was Dutch, but, shit happens. 
Think Spain have looked the strongest team in the tournament, bar Germany tbh, so it will be a tough test, but it’s a test we can pass. I reckon Shaw needs to start, Yamal would rip Trippier to shreds!

 

[Admiral Nelsen]

20 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Wow, those ratings are very harsh imo, no way Trippier, Rice and Bellingham get 5s?? We weren't fabulous but definitely deserved the win and had a great first half.

 

That Trippier mark is a joke. He was genuinely threatening yesterday and after the first few minutes he was very strong defensively too. 7 at least.

 

Thought Rice didn't really stand out like he does for Arsenal but him and Mainoo dominated the midfield, so another harsh 5. He was partially responsible for their goal I suppose. 

[oldjamfan1]

43 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Crikey, theyve won every game (never been done before) and solidly beat Crotia, Italy, Germany and France on the way. In comparison we've struggled through all games until last night ,and while we deserved to win against the Dutch they were in all honesty not very good compared to Germany, France etc.

Spain are a great side. We've always got a chance, but lets not delude ourselves that we have nothing to fear!

To be fair you wouldn't expect an easy game in a final.

[jim mk2]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

It wasn't ignorance, I could list every winner and finalist of the World Cup, but it doesn't change the relevance.

Since their 1970s World Cup heyday, the Dutch have reached one final; a third place; a fourth place, and 2 quarter-finals.

Since winning the Euros in 1988, they've appeared in 3 semi-finals including last night and 2 quarter-finals.

Compare and contrast to our dismal record. 

Football didn't start with the advent of the Premier League and the past is relevant. The Dutch are a great and successful footballing nation.

"Youth" is wasted on the young - especially callow youth.  

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

12 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Thought we played well last night, tbh. 
Don’t think it was a penalty and I’d have been seething if I was Dutch, but, shit happens. 
Think Spain have looked the strongest team in the tournament, bar Germany tbh, so it will be a tough test, but it’s a test we can pass. I reckon Shaw needs to start, Yamal would rip Trippier to shreds!

 

We played really well in the first half when the Dutch allowed us to out number them in midfield. Second half was another story, they beefed up their midfield and made life hard for us. We still made a couple of good chances but it wasn’t the free flowing football of the first half.

I think Spain will possibly start off like the Dutch did in the first half. They probably think they can out football us so they’ll go for it like they did against France. If and when they get in front they’ll become more like the Dutch in the second half.

Edited July 11 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[jim mk2]

8 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Thought we played well last night, tbh. 
Don’t think it was a penalty and I’d have been seething if I was Dutch, but, shit happens. 
Think Spain have looked the strongest team in the tournament, bar Germany tbh, so it will be a tough test, but it’s a test we can pass. I reckon Shaw needs to start, Yamal would rip Trippier to shreds!

 

Never a penalty for me - the tabloids would be going berserk this morning if that has been given against England

England look so much better balanced with Shaw at left back - hard on Trippier but I wouldn't start the final with him

England were well on top in the first half and should have been ahead at half time such was their dominance. Koeman shifted his players around and it was much more difficult for England in the second half

The problem for England in the final is Spain have more players who can turn a game with a piece of individual brilliance - something even the best coaches cannot plan for

Edited July 11 by jim mk2

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Never a penalty for me - the tabloids would be going berserk this morning if that has been given against England

England look so much better balanced with Shaw at left back - hard on Trippier but I wouldn't start the final with him

The ref would have got pilloried in our press if the pen had been at the other end. All the old stories about the ref being bent would plastered on every front page.

Edited July 11 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[roverandout]

7 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Since their 1970s World Cup heyday, the Dutch have reached one final; a third place; a fourth place, and 2 quarter-finals.

Since winning the Euros in 1988, they've appeared in 3 semi-finals including last night and 2 quarter-finals.

Compare and contrast to our dismal record. 

Football didn't start with the advent of the Premier League and the past is relevant. The Dutch are a great and successful footballing nation.

"Youth" is wasted on the young - especially callow youth.  

 

Since euro 88. We've been in 2 finals 3 semi finals numerous quarter finals.  Our record is better than Holland's

Edited July 11 by roverandout

[Dreams of 1995]

7 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

It's not the sort of thing to dwell on after such a great night, but of course it's not meaningless! We've spent decades calling various managers failures for getting knocked out by top Brazilian, Argentinian, Portuguese or German teams, often in games which themselves were very tight. Not having to play teams of the same standard is obviously a massive caveat if we're saying that Southgate's record is better than Sven's, for instance. 

 

If we win the thing by beating the Netherlands and Spain, then the thing becomes a bit more of a pointless discussion imo. 

Of course it is meaningless. Who we come up against is irrelevant. We only have to beat them. And we are doing that, regularly

In Southgate's time, we have only ever been knocked out by either finalists or winners. WC vs Croatia; Euros we lost to Italy and the last WC we lost to France. So if we are giving managers like Sven credit for only being knocked out by top teams, you have to afford that same credit to Southgate

To get so far in every tournament is testament to his management. I was as critical as the next man early on in this tournament but there comes a time when you have admit you got it wrong. I don't think English people like that, and so they start to double down on pointless bits of conversation about lucky draws, or comparing the teams Southgate has played vs other managers

[Dreams of 1995]

5 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The ref would have got pilloried in our press if the pen had been at the other end. All the old stories about the ref being bent would plastered on every front page.

I thought the ref had a terrific game Tyrone. Best ref of the tournament

I'd have him in the final 😁

[Gav]

15 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Thought we played well last night, tbh. 
Don’t think it was a penalty and I’d have been seething if I was Dutch, but, shit happens. 
Think Spain have looked the strongest team in the tournament, bar Germany tbh, so it will be a tough test, but it’s a test we can pass. I reckon Shaw needs to start, Yamal would rip Trippier to shreds!

 

My initial thoughts, but I've now changed my mind.

Studs up, knee high, anywhere else on the pitch its a foul and potentially a red card. It wasn't intentional, it wasn't malicious, but it was knee high with studs showing.

 

[DE.]

27 minutes ago, Mike E said:

If we win this, where does Southgate sit?

1. Still not as good as Sir Alf, he won a World Cup.

2. Better than Sir Alf, he’s won a major international tournament AND has a better record of getting to the latter stages.

3. Right alongside Sir Alf.

Either way, a knighthood can’t be far away.

If he wins a trophy then he's up there at the very top, alongside Sir Alf. It is what it is - regardless of opinions on his style of football or tactical nous, if you win a trophy then you've achieved the highest possible accolade and have to be recognised accordingly.

I think when judging other managers against him it does make sense to include context of tournament structures pre-1996, and the teams we got knocked out by post-1996, but for some people it is genuinely as simple as the round we got to. Everyone will view it differently I suppose. Either way I'll accept Southgate as one of the great England managers if we win on Sunday - acknowledging that all great managers have their fair share of luck. It's weaved into all footballing stories and is part of what makes them so compelling. 

[Admiral Nelsen]

3 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Of course it is meaningless. Who we come up against is irrelevant. We only have to beat them. And we are doing that, regularly

In Southgate's time, we have only ever been knocked out by either finalists or winners. WC vs Croatia; Euros we lost to Italy and the last WC we lost to France. So if we are giving managers like Sven credit for only being knocked out by top teams, you have to afford that same credit to Southgate

To get so far in every tournament is testament to his management. I was as critical as the next man early on in this tournament but there comes a time when you have admit you got it wrong. I don't think English people like that, and so they start to double down on pointless bits of conversation about lucky draws, or comparing the teams Southgate has played vs other managers

 

It isn't if you're using it as a standard to judge the achievement of the manager/team. Beating teams you're expected to win isn't always straightforward, but it's a hell of a lot easier than beating the top teams! Reaching finals and semi finals in previous tournaments has exclusively been about winning the games where we were big favourites (arguably Germany aside) and getting beat against teams who were somewhere near our level. He still gets the credit for beating the weaker sides, but it's totally fair to point out that the routes to the final have generally been seriously fortunate. 

 

I think you're right about people being really resistant to admitting they're wrong. Netherlands and Spain back to back aren't straightforward, so if we win on Sunday then the facts will have changed and so to will my opinions!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

24 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I thought the ref had a terrific game Tyrone. Best ref of the tournament

I'd have him in the final 😁

I think most of them have been really good to be honest. Apart from the guy who started handing out yellow cards in the first five minutes and made a rod for his own back.

[K-Hod]

37 minutes ago, Gav said:

My initial thoughts, but I've now changed my mind.

Studs up, knee high, anywhere else on the pitch its a foul and potentially a red card. It wasn't intentional, it wasn't malicious, but it was knee high with studs showing.

 

I still don’t agree tbh. If he stops Kane getting a shot in, then fair enough, but Kane still gets a shot away, so what exactly has the defender stopped him doing?

Football’s quest to become a non-contact sport hurtles on.

[riverholmes]

1 hour ago, joey_big_nose said:

If we win it (big if) the best england manager imo. Hes had luck with the draws, but until this tournament did not actually have that many good players established at the top level.

That he has the record he has (more successful in knockout than every manager 1967 to 2018 put together, more finals than all england managers put together etc) whilst also not having that great a team till recently would put him as the best imo as long as he can add trophy. But he has to win it against a brilliant Spanish side to achieve that status.

I don’t know who’s the best but you can’t judge Southgate without acknowledging the dramatic transformation in English club football inspired, particularly, by Spanish influence.

The biggest difficulty for Gerrard, Lampard and Co. was not, I feel, cliques or substandard management (though, real) but that English football was long ball based. 

For whatever reason, international football is possession based and England couldn’t compete. Maybe, an analogy would be a grass court tennis player specialist trying to compete on clay or vice versa? 
 

Club styles have changed and English players have basically caught up (near enough) with rivals. It was very rare that England youth teams would ever win anything. They were so behind the technical level of teams. Now England, as far as I know, are more successful at youth level. Southgate has benefited greatly from this skill and mentality evolution from club level.

Edited July 11 by riverholmes

[Eddie]

58 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

Since their 1970s World Cup heyday, the Dutch have reached one final; a third place; a fourth place, and 2 quarter-finals.

Since winning the Euros in 1988, they've appeared in 3 semi-finals including last night and 2 quarter-finals.

Compare and contrast to our dismal record. 

Football didn't start with the advent of the Premier League and the past is relevant. The Dutch are a great and successful footballing nation.

"Youth" is wasted on the young - especially callow youth.  

 

Since 1988 England have appeared in 2 world cup semifinals, two Euro finals (including this one), and one Euros semifinals (plus a host of quarterfinals in both records).

You really want to tell me that record over the last 36 years is better? Compare and contrast.

For all the 'great and successful footalling nation' talk, where would you rank them? In Europe, clearly behind France, Germany, Spain, and Italy in terms of pedigree and success. Then certainly behind Brazil and Argentina outside of Europe. Those are all givens. Maybe lessen your adjectives as we aren't then even moving into the the countries that would then produce debate (England, Uruguay, etc.). 

I'm 37. Not sure I can put myself in the 'youth' category anymore.

[wilsdenrover]

11 hours ago, M_B said:

France were on our side of the draw, the strongest side according to the bookies, with both pre tournament favourites in it. 

No one is in either side of the draw until  after the group games.

[jim mk2]

6 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Since 1988 England have appeared in 2 world cup semifinals, two Euro finals (including this one), and one Euros semifinals (plus a host of quarterfinals in both records).

You really want to tell me that record over the last 36 years is better? Compare and contrast.

For all the 'great and successful footalling nation' talk, where would you rank them? In Europe, clearly behind France, Germany, Spain, and Italy in terms of pedigree and success. Then certainly behind Brazil and Argentina outside of Europe. Those are all givens. Maybe lessen your adjectives as we aren't then even moving into the the countries that would then produce debate (England, Uruguay, etc.). 

I'm 37. Not sure I can put myself in the 'youth' category anymore.

This arose because you were dissing the Dutch and their achievements (because they weren't in your lifetime) when they are clearly a significant football nation with a long history of success in tournament football. At 37 you ought to have known better. 

[wilsdenrover]

10 hours ago, Aqualung said:

Pathetic isn't it? 

Grown blokes nit picking over England reaching a euro final.! 

Doesn't matter how we got there. We are there and in with a decent chance of lifting some silverware for the first time since '66.

What more do folk want? 

To win it 🤞

[wilsdenrover]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

If we win this, where does Southgate sit?

1. Still not as good as Sir Alf, he won a World Cup.

2. Better than Sir Alf, he’s won a major international tournament AND has a better record of getting to the latter stages.

3. Right alongside Sir Alf.

Either way, a knighthood can’t be far away.

Option 1 - a World Cup win trumps everything else

[DE.]

10 hours ago, Aqualung said:

Doesn't matter how we got there. We are there and in with a decent chance of lifting some silverware for the first time since '66.

I'd say we had a better chance in the 2020 final against Italy tbh. I rate this Spanish team higher than the Italian team we faced back then, and it was a home match for us in 2020 as well.